Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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If passive skills are optionL and not used with Hide, that would make Hide work pretty much the way i was pointing to here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/239724-a-creatures-passive-perception-is-only-available
Rogue hides on their turn, rolls a 16. Beats the dc 15, successfully hides.
The nearby monster would have a passive perceptiom of 20 and see the rogue passively preventing the rogue from ever hiding, but since the dm doesnt use passive perception, the rogue is hiddem on the rogues turn. And could Sneak Attack with advantage.
The monster has to.wait until their turn to try to search for the rogue. If they have the Find legendary reaction, they could do the search immediately after the Rogues.turn, but the rogue still got to hide and attack with advantage and hide on their turn.
No passive perception creates an interesting sequence where Hide could work on the turn someone was hiding, and finding the hidden creature would wait until an enemy has a turn or action to search.
I think i might actually prefer that approach.
They completely nerfed the Surprise Round, so hiding and stealthing has much less impact.
But if you hide on your turn and thats in effect until the enemy does an active search (cause no passive perception), youre actually back to something close to a surprise.round.
Hide, roll a 15 lr.higher. hidden. Set up ambush. Enemy approaches. Roll initiative. The enemy running point might be actively looking/actively searching, and might spot the party, so the warlock hexes their Wisdom. Search/perception is at disadvantage. They dont spot thr party, the rest of enemy column walks up, and now the party is hidden and basically everyone takes the ready action to fire at the same time.
In a location where the enemy is not expecting an ambush, not actively searching, the party would be guaranteed at least one round of readied actions from everyone before the enemy can react.
The moment the Warlock attempts to Hex, you go into Initiative - and the Initiative roll occurs before the Hex would land. The Warlock can certainly Hex when they act during Initiative, but it's unlikely it would be particularly useful at that point.
It's also doubtful the party would take Ready Actions. Ready Actions can only be taken once Initiative is rolled and there isn't much point in deliberately delaying when you attack - especially when it comes at such a cost (martials can only take a single attack, casters have to use concentration to hold the spell, neither can move unless that's all they do). Nor is there any guarantee the entire party would win Initiative and be able to act before their opponents. It's certainly likely since the enemies would have Disadvantage on Initiative due to Surprise, but there's no guarantee.
This plus:
is my summary of this thread and the Twinned Thread A creature's Passive Perception is only available during the creature's actions?
I'd say the main (only?) problem with passive perception is its name. It gives the impression that it describes how perceptive you are when not focusing, while a skill check corresponds to when you actually are looking for something. And with that interpretation, the numbers don't make sense. Focusing should not make you less perceptive half the time.
I find the name Passive Perception actually quite on point, both in terms of passive vs active check & perceptiveness.
Okay, this is actually two questions
One point of passive Perception is to mitigate the constant “we stop and roll Perception” while the party is moving through an area, though. Practically speaking it can only ever be a case of being left to player initiative- creating the aforementioned issue of requiring regular intervals of resolving checks, the DM calling for a roll when appropriate- creating meta/immersion issues when everyone rolls low but also now has the expectation that something is present, or giving something the DM can independently reference before giving any information- undercutting the chance of failure.
Ultimately, I would say that situational awareness is simply too much of an ongoing process to be something active rolling can cover without creating too much overhead, particularly if only one or two people in the party have decent Perception, meaning everyone else has to stop and watch dice be rolled for something that isn’t an active scene and might or might not have an consequence on progression.
I think hiding in combat shouldn't be harder or easier, i prefer if there's a single way regardless of situation and circumstances may grant Advantage or Disadvantage if needed.
At DM's discretion i believe Passive Perception can work for most things a Wisdom (Perception) check can.
Definitely a matter of DM’s discretion, yeah.
That's, uhh, one way of looking at it
Another way is that if you have a Perception of +5 and the DC to spot something is 20, you have an infinitely better chance of spotting it with an active check
Also, the phrase "can't see the forest for the trees" exists for a reason. It's entirely possible to be actively looking at something and miss something important that you might have seen had you not been so focused on the process of looking at it
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"The moment the Warlock attempts to Hex, you go into Initiative - and the Initiative roll occurs before the Hex would land."
The warlock says they MindCrystal subtle-hex the charisma of the evil council member about to give a speech and you have them roll INITIATIVE first?
You can run your game that way, but when my players plot and work together and come up with a cool idea, i try to roll with it.
Subtle hex is completely not perceptive. The target doesnt even know they were hexed. They just feel "off" when they try to use the hexed ability.
If the party has time before contact with thr enemy, i let them prep buff spells. If they can do a thing like subtle hex, i let that pass as well.
2024 dmg: "
Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does. Some characters have abilities that trigger on an Initiative roll; you, not the players, decide if and when Initiative is rolled. A high-level Barbarian can’t just punch their Paladin friend and roll Initiative to regain expended uses of Rage.
In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. "
If players are trying to quick-draw eldritch blast versus enemy longbow, yeah, initiative. If a player is doing some prep that is completely imperceptible to the enemy, Rule Zero says you can DM however you want, but the rules dont explicitly say Initiative must be rollled at that time. Its a choice youre making as a dm. And the very specific effect of that choice nerfs player choices.
Im not doing that.
A couple months ago my players had an opportunity to ambush some enemies and they shrugged and said it didnt matter, all you get is advantage on initiative, so they just explored until they ran into the bad guys.
To me, thats busted. The rules are busted. I get the surprise round, when used by the monsters to sneak.up on players can quickly lead to a tpk, so nerfing it has its reasons. But the current implementation of hiding, stealthing, surprise, and initiative does NOT work for me. Players only use Stealth to avoid combat. Not even the rogues ive seen try to hide during a fight. They eithe steady aim or just go with an ally next to the target to get sneak attack.
"It's also doubtful the party would take Ready Actions. Ready Actions can only be taken once Initiative is rolled"
Ok. The idea that actions can only be taken after initiative is NOT in the rules anywhere. Thats your homebrew. Not RAW. sneaking around a dungeon specifically to avoid combat is exactly taking the Hide action when there is no intiative.
Players can take the Search actiin in a room when combat is over, and initiative is done. Whatever this rule is, its not RAW.
"there isn't much point in deliberately delaying when you attack - especially when it comes at such a cost (martials can only take a single attack, casters have to use concentration to hold the spell, neither can move unless that's all they do)."
In YOUR homebrew rules, sure, none of this works because you forced your players to do everything inside initiative and you apparently wont roll initiative until the enemy is right on top of the party and can hear what theyre doing, counterspell, and take reactions.
In the raw world where actions can occur outside initiative, the entire party could find a good ambush spot, take the Hide action when no one us around, WAIT, when the enemy appears in the distance ready their attacks, spells, whatever, and if they had good stealth rolls, the enemy should come right into the kill zone, the readied actions go off, and then roll initiave, with the party getting advantage.
"martials can only take a single attack, casters have to use concentration to hold the spell, neither can move"
This was a deliberate choice for.me. it still allows a kind of "surprise" round, but its one attack or spell per player, so its not as poweful as a surprise round where everyone gets a full turn before the enemy does, but everyone gets a readied action, which dials back the damage that can be done. It encourages tactical thinking, but wont wipe out the encounter in the first round.
The DMG suggests using passive perception to see if players notice a thing without asking for a roll because you dont want "everyone roll perception" to tip.off the players.
That means the players are NOT searching. If they were searching, youd just tell them to make a roll.
So by one of the big examples in the dmg, PASSIVE PERCEPTION is used when the players arent actively searching. Passive perception's big example in the dmg is when the players are not focused on searching.
But it has a score equal to the average active search. Which, as you said, does not make sense.
"Should hiding in combat be easier?"
Thats too vague a question. The 2024 rules for hide come with a bunch of things that directly disqualify the chance of hiding. You have to be totally obscured or behind at least 3/4 cover between you and all the enemies. If youre not, you cant hide because your in line of sight.
But if youre in the woods, behind some branches you set up as a duck blind, and you want to longbow the enemy in an ambush spot 200 feet down in the valley, then, absolutely yes, you should be able to hide.
Your attack might give away your position, so you take incoming fire. But on your turn, youre in the woods, 200 feet from the enemy, you absolutely should be able to take the Hide Action.
The 2024 Hide rules have a laundry list of requirements, which is annoying, but its basically are you in line of sight of enemy? If no, then hide. If yes, are you behind 3/4 cover or more or are totally obscured? If yes then hide.
"Does passive perception work well for things like noticing traps and secret doors? IMO no -- it turns secret doors and the like into a simple threshold"
If the party is taking the Search Action, then have them roll. If they are NOT searching, then use passive perception, but it should get a -5 penaltybfor disadvantage for not searching. Theyre lollygagging around, and might very well miss the secret door.
Thats why passive perception, the fixed score/threshold repeesenting how well a charavter can detect things when theyre not actively searching, should NOT be the average roll of their active Search Action Perception Check roll.
Passive perception should be a simple threshold, but it shouldnt be 10+perception mods. It shoudl have disadvantage and a -5
You made no mention of Subtle in your description. You merely said that the Warlock was casting Hex - which has VSM components and would be immediately apparent to the approaching group.
You cannot Ready Actions outside of combat. Ready Actions must be taken on your turn and turns do not exist outside of combat. Actions like Hide, Search, Influence, etc., do not require the combat turn structure.
Rogues Hide in combat all the time. Hide is one of the best defenses out there, as well as enabling Sneak Attack (and being a very effective tool for Opportunity Attacks since enemies who don't realize you're there don't take precautions about moving out of your reach). When you're Hidden, most enemies will be unable to effectively attack you.
It seems like most of your concerns/homebrew arise from not understanding the rules rather than problems with the rules.
This is a reasonable first reaction to seeing these rules, but upon examining what these rules represent, and the actual math involved it turns out that these RAW are designed adequately.
One of the main things to consider here, particular in the 2014 rules, is that it is common practice as well as recommended by the developers that the Passive Perception score should represent the minimum possible outcome of an active Perception check. Meaning, rolling low on an active check contributes to the percentage chance of failure, but the actual number that is rolled, if that matters, is always rounded up to the Passive score.
This means that actively searching for something or someone at least gives you a chance to find it in situations where it would be impossible with a Passive check, but the reverse is never true -- if it can be found with a Passive check then it would always be found with an Active check. So, the common conclusion that the Passive check equals an average roll and therefore rolling doesn't matter on average is flawed.
Example: Perception skill modified by +0 and no additional effects such as Guidance. DC = 10. There is no reason to call for an active check here and the DM should preempt the player wishing to spend their action to search here because they have already discovered this thing passively. Passive chance to succeed = 100%, Active chance to succeed = 100% (but this roll / action was unnecessary in the first place).
Example 2: Perception skill modified by +0 and no additional effects such as Guidance. DC = 12. In this situation, the character always fails to discover the thing passively unless for some reason he has advantage -- for this example there is no advantage. Now the player declares that his character wants to actively Search. The DM asks for an active roll since there is a chance for success or failure. Passive chance to succeed = 0%, Active chance to succeed = 45% or 40% depending on if the DC is set (hidden object) or if it is a contested check (hidden creature). Again, that's adjudication with the 2014 rules. The 2024 rules do not use contested checks.
Lastly, if a DM does feel strongly that these RAW don't work well for a particular situation as generally expressed by the OP's criticisms, then remember that situationally the DM always has the option to apply disadvantage to any check. So, if he feels strongly that the BBEG is too engaged or distracted to be fully aware then give him disadvantage (-5) on his Passive Perception in this particular combat scenario. However, keep in mind that the rules pretty explicitly explained in 2014 (and less explicitly so in 2024) that combat generally enhances awareness and that creatures have 360-degree awareness in 2014 and pretty much the same in 2024 unless the DM situationally declares otherwise. As a default, we are meant to just use the Passive Perception score unmodified by advantage or disadvantage against hidden creatures both in combat and out of combat unless another rule or feature supersedes that. Along these same lines, the 5e rules for 2014 declared the mechanics of "flanking" and "facing" as optional rules and in 2024 those mechanics have been removed entirely. Dnd creatures, mainly for balance purposes, are generally assumed to have somewhat superhuman perception (especially the ability to hear other creatures).
No, that's not how it works. The Passive Perception mechanics have not changed. Both in 2014 and in 2024 the consequence of succeeding on a Passive Perception check is the same as for succeeding on an active Perception check. You don't ever have to succeed twice.
This is incorrect. Passive Perception is a valid mechanic for finding a hidden creature in 2024. Same goes for Divine Sense, Tremorsense or whatever else. The Passive Perception mechanics have not changed. Both in 2014 and in 2024 the consequence of succeeding on a Passive Perception check is the same as for succeeding on an active Perception check.
This is incorrect. See above.
This is incorrect. The DC 15 is for the action of becoming hidden. You may or may not do a good job of trying to hide. On a 15 or greater the roll represents how well hidden you are. Some creatures are better at finding hidden creatures than others.
To perceive, you must find the creature. There is no "you must take the Search action". That phrase does not exist in the text. The requirement is to find the creature. This can be done with an active Search action (and if this method is chosen then the mechanics for doing this are specified). It can also be done Passively. It can also be done via other means such as Divine Sense or Tremorsense or whatever else.
This is incorrect. See above.
More later. Maybe.
"You cannot Ready Actions outside of combat. "
Where is the RAW text to prove this?
"It seems like most of your concerns/homebrew arise from not understanding the rules"
You have repeatedly asserted your homebrew choices as the way things MUST be done. You insist initiative MUST be rolled at a certain time. You insist actions CAN ONLY be taken during on the initiative combat count. Now you insist players can NEVER ready for something except on theirr turn, in initiative order.
Thats not RAW. thats YOU.
Its fine that you DM that way, but your way is not RAW. And you repeatedly pushing your homebrew as RAW while telling me i dont understand the rules is getting a little monotonous....
" it is common practice as well as recommended by the developers that the Passive Perception score should represent the minimum possible outcome of an active Perception check."
Is this "common practice" actually written in the rule books anywhere? If its not in the phb or dmg, then youre telling me the rules as written have flaws and here is a common homebrew to fix it.
Can you provide a url to this common practice. Ive never heard of it before. And what youre describing sounds like a sequence of bad decisions followed by attempts to patch it that created new problems, kind of solution. Just make passive perception lower, like it should be.
Turns are defined under the combat section. They do not exist outside of combat but are created by the combat mechanics that only begin when you roll Initiative.
The Ready Action action says: "You take the Ready action to wait for a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you take this action on your turn, which lets you act by taking a Reaction before the start of your next turn."
Passive Perception: "Using Passive Perception. Sometimes, asking players to make Wisdom (Perception) checks for their characters tips them off that there’s something they should be searching for, giving them a clue you’d rather they didn’t have. In those circumstances, use characters’ Passive Perception scores instead."
All Passive Perception does is avoiding tipping off the players so can control whether they're aware they can Search. It doesn't perform the Search.
That’s extrapolating a lot that doesn’t appear in the text.