Wish and the Ring of Spell Storing

RAW doesn’t seem to offer a positive answer for or against using Wish for upcasts. On the one hand “the spell takes effect” would seem to read as “read from the description and apply appropriately”, in which case the typical “can’t upcast if a slot wasn’t used” point applies since the effect is iterating out of another effect rather than a direct cast. On the other, the bit about ignoring requirements could be interpreted to include spell slots, although given that upcasting rules are more a “if x features y then z” sequence it’s really getting into fine semantic points. Personally I wouldn’t let it upcast, but I wouldn’t say someone else is pushing the envelope particularly far if they do allow it.

It's been pointed out a few times, but you're not casting (or upcasting for that matter) the spell you're duplicating when you cast Wish. And since the spell slot requirement is associated with the casting part, it doesn't apply to this case. When you cast Wish, you perform the verbal component (for example by saying "I wish for an 8th level Fireball"), and immediately after that, the spell takes effect, and your 8th level Fireball appears. At no point do you do anything pertaining to casting Fireball itself, which by the way wouldn't make any sense if you tried to duplicate a spell you normally don't know how to cast.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

RAW doesn’t seem to offer a positive answer for or against using Wish for upcasts. On the one hand “the spell takes effect” would seem to read as “read from the description and apply appropriately”, in which case the typical “can’t upcast if a slot wasn’t used” point applies since the effect is iterating out of another effect rather than a direct cast. On the other, the bit about ignoring requirements could be interpreted to include spell slots, although given that upcasting rules are more a “if x features y then z” sequence it’s really getting into fine semantic points. Personally I wouldn’t let it upcast, but I wouldn’t say someone else is pushing the envelope particularly far if they do allow it.

If a dm wants to allow it in their campaign, thats their choice, but a player trying to tell me i should allow it in my campaign because their interpretation of free upcasting with zero side effects is raw? Nope.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Again, monsters and magic items do NOT have to follow the same rules as players. So any rules that talk about monsters upcasting a spell or a magic item inherently upcasting a spell do NOT APPLY to what players can and cannot do.

PCs can use magic items. Ergo, PCs can upcast spells without using a spell slot, as long as some effect lets them do so.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

Again, monsters and magic items do NOT have to follow the same rules as players. So any rules that talk about monsters upcasting a spell or a magic item inherently upcasting a spell do NOT APPLY to what players can and cannot do.

PCs can use magic items. Ergo, PCs can upcast spells without using a spell slot, as long as some effect lets them do so.

Magic items (just like monsters) can do all sorts of things that players cant do. Some are even sentient, some are cursed, and many have features unavailable to players. The player just waves it around. The magic item does all the work. You dont even have to be a spellcaster to use a magic item. My familiar can use a wand of magic missiles or a ring of spell storing. The creature using the magic item has no inherent ability for magic whatsoever. The magic item does all the work

Wish is a player spell, so must follow all the spellcasting rules for players, not the rules for magic items, and not the rules for monsters.

In the rules for spellcasting for players, EVERY SPELL that a player can upcast, the spell description explicitly states how to upcast the spell, most say with a spell slot but Twinned say you can do an "effective" one level upcast with a socerery point.  Wish is also a spell for players, and in that spell description, it makes no mention of upcasting in any way. The only way anyone can extract the idea of upcasting via Wish is by indirect inference and implication, and indirect implication is never used anywhere else in any rule discussing players upcasting a spell. EVER.

Quote from Natrel >>

It's been pointed out a few times, but you're not casting (or upcasting for that matter) the spell you're duplicating when you cast Wish. And since the spell slot requirement is associated with the casting part, it doesn't apply to this case. When you cast Wish, you perform the verbal component (for example by saying "I wish for an 8th level Fireball"), and immediately after that, the spell takes effect, and your 8th level Fireball appears. At no point do you do anything pertaining to casting Fireball itself, which by the way wouldn't make any sense if you tried to duplicate a spell you normally don't know how to cast.

 
Except then you’re arguably not simply replicating the spell effect. The spell effect for any upcast is “if a slot greater than Y is used for X, then Z”. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an 8th level Fireball- there is the single spell Fireball which will have a modified effect if cast with an 8th level slot. If you’re bypassing the spell slot requirement, then by definition the check if the slot exceeds Y is not met. It’s a question of if the meta element of slot levels qualifies as a “requirement” to the spell effect, or if that’s a separate secondary element. Arguments can be made either way, but RAW doesn’t give a conclusive answer to which elements Wish covers.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an 8th level Fireball.

There is plenty of textual evidence that Fireball (8th level version) is a valid construction.

Genie Magic

General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+)

Wish Magic. As a Magic action, you can cast a level 1 spell of your choice from the Sorcerer spell list that has a casting time of an action. Once you use this benefit, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest. The spell’s spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.

When you reach level 11, the spell you cast with this feat is cast as though using a level 2 spell slot. When you reach level 17, the spell is cast as though using a level 3 spell slot.

I think it is relevant to note that any player with this feat can cast an upcasted spell without spending any spell slot.

The_Ace_of_Rogue, thanks for your input! :) I totally agree with you that the rules on the topic are not 100% clear. Personally since Jeremy Crawford, who wrote the text, has wrote separately that upcasting with wish is possible, I believe this was the RAI. But if another table concludes otherwise is not unreasonable.

Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an 8th level Fireball.

Regarding what Pantagruel666 is saying however, here is the paragraph from the PHB2024. I think on this the rules are unambiguous.

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot

When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell takes on the higher level for that casting. For instance, if a Wizard casts Magic Missile using a level 2 slot, that Magic Missile is level 2. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

Quote from Jayce_Danathar>>

Genie Magic

General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+)

Wish Magic. As a Magic action, you can cast a level 1 spell of your choice from the Sorcerer spell list that has a casting time of an action. Once you use this benefit, you can’t do so again until you finish a Long Rest. The spell’s spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.

When you reach level 11, the spell you cast with this feat is cast as though using a level 2 spell slot. When you reach level 17, the spell is cast as though using a level 3 spell slot.

I think it is relevant to note that any player with this feat can cast an upcasted spell without spending any spell slot.

 Bit that text description EXPLICITLY states that you can upcast and by how much, "as though using a level 2 spell slot"

If Wish said something about "the spell is cast as if using a level 8 slot" then sure. Upcasting is raw and rai.

But as Wish is actually written, upcasting is not RAW. you can only attempt to infer that its allowed by interpreting, and those interpretations are based on ambiguous text that could also be interpreted that upcasting is not allowed, and your interpretation ignores how literally every other spell description and spell related feature that allows upcasting explicitly says how to upcast.

We've reached the point in a thread where people are just repeating their arguments. Time for both sides to recognize that anyone who doesn't already agree with them isn't going to be convinced.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

If a dm wants to allow it in their campaign, thats their choice, but a player trying to tell me i should allow it in my campaign because their interpretation of free upcasting with zero side effects is raw? Nope.

 
Nobody is telling you that. This is a RAW discussion. You don't HAVE to rule your game strictly RAW. The vast majority of DMs don't do that. But the very fact that this is a controversial topic should drive you to clarify your position on this as a house-rule, whether your interpretation is RAW or not.