I can not locate any rules for the creation of magical scrolls in the rules provided here, in the books i have access to or on the wiki.
i have seen a couple of rules for scroll creation from players and gms:
Option 1: Cost to make: 25 x spell level (minimum 1) x caster level. time to make 1 day reguardless of dificulty. So? a lvl 20 wizard pays at least 500 G for a lvl 1 or cantrip scroll?
Option 2: 25 g cost + material costs + (days taken x spell level). So its always 25 gold base to make a scroll but it takes a long time relative to the results.
Option 3: 25 x spell level x (10-days taken to make [minimum 1]) + Material Cost. This method seems more fair. A the base cost of a 9th lvl scroll is 225 then is multiplied by how long you dont take to make it. Example. If you took 9 days to make it, the scroll would cost 225. But if you did it in 1 day, it would cost 2,250 to make the scroll.
Option 4: (Cost of Magic Item By Rarity /2 [because consumable]) / (days taken to make /2). Example: a level 9 scroll costs a base of 250,000 gold to make in supplies but if you spend more time crafting it (say 8 days) you would only pay 75k in materials.
The rules of scrolls are reported in the DMG. Now, I cannot be accurate since I don't have the DMG with me, but yes the cost and time are defined there according to the spell level.
DMG, p182. In the Downtime section. One thing to keep in mind, the Magic Item construction rules are sort of (IMHO) "Low Magic Campaign Prohibitive" and are more of a suggestion then a hard-core rule (they even say as much in the rules).
The other thing to look at is the spell scroll section in the DMG's magic items, page 200. THAT page gives you the RARITY level for scrolls, which you can then use to look at the crafting on p128.
The basic idea is that all magic items have a FORMULA. A character needs the formula for a magic item in order to create one. Formulas are given out by the DM whenever they feel like they want to give one out, there's absolutely no rules on formulas (other than "there are formulas").
Once a PC has a formula, they can make that item. Time and cost depends upon rarity (p128). And it's EXPENSIVE in both! I have heard of many DMs changing the costs and adjusting this table for their own game. :)
Example: A first level spell has a common rarity. p128 lists common items to cost: 100gp, and you need a minimum PC level of 3rd. Items are created at 25gp/8-hour day. So a 1st level spell scroll will take 4x8-hour days, and cost the 100gp in materials, etc.
A 2nd or 3rd level spell scroll is 500gp, and thus takes 20 days!
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After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box. – Proverb
A 2nd or 3rd level spell scroll is 500gp, and thus takes 20 days!
That time can be reduced greatly if you have helpers. Each can contribute their own 25 gp/8-hour day.
And since most party members don't have much to do during the downtime period during which a scroll (or other item) is being made, there are usually helpers available that you don't even have to hire for the task.
And since most party members don't have much to do during the downtime period during which a scroll (or other item) is being made, there are usually helpers available that you don't even have to hire for the task.
That's not the case at our table. The other PCs have plenty of their own things to do in their Downtime.
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After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box. – Proverb
Personally, I still think the costings are waaaaaaay off when you get to the higher levels. I use a base price of 25 gp and then use Spell level and caster level you have that spell slot modifiers so that spells can be scribed at higher levels. So a 1st level spell cast as if it was using a 1st level spell slot is 25gp to make (1x1x25). A 9th level spell is 3825gp to make (9x17x25). This also allows flexibility for scribing a scroll at higher levels - a 1st level spell cast at 5th level is 225gp (1x9x25). For Cantrips I use 0.5 for spell level and the level of casting (for different damage cantrips).
I also change the crafting magic items speed to 100gp per day, with the rule that you can only work on a maximum of 2 scrolls per day.
I was also looking at doing a Spell level x Spell slot (rather than level you need to be to cast spell slot) - in that instance I'd make base price 50gp, ends up being slightly more expensive than my first option, but still has a similar path progression (and removes these scrolls that cost 250k...)
I'm a bit late to this discussion but it's worth pointing out that the creation cost of consumables is half the cost indicated by the Creation Cost table on pg. 129 of the DMG, as stated it the first sentence of the following paragraph.
The gold and time costs are too prohibitive. Much easier to just hire an NPC to cast a couple of spells than 1000's of gold and weeks of time to cast a spell once. The scroll and potion rules in 3.5 were good, I had never seen anyone figure out how to abuse them. Basically Wizards is telling players, "No, your 'wizard' can't scribe scrolls, brew potions, or make magic items. Magic items, scrolls, and potions come from the gods. Want magic, murder hobo for things, otherwise be happy you can cast spells."
5th ed is dumb. Scribing a scroll should cost only ink, parchment or paper, time, materials, not gold. If you are paying someone else, sure... but if you are writing down the incantation, charging it with your magic, and providing the resources for the spell, why would you need to pay? You don't pay to cast the spell when you cast it from preparation/memory, and you already have to invest resources and time into preparation.
I can accept higher level spells taking more time and all spells requiring an Arcana check modified by the related spellcasting ability modifier vs the player's own Spell DC due to anyone using the scroll would gain the benefit of the scriber's Spellcaster Level, so the Rogue party member can cast the Cleric's level 10 healing scroll, but that is no excuse to bankrupt spellcasters to have a few extra spells for between battles.
The gp costs should be to buy scrolls from merchants, and be a baseline, with some even places having cheaper ones (A spellcasting family sells certain scrolls cheaper like Identify, Cure Wounds, and Cantrips, because they can churn them out, so they only charge 10gp for the lvl 1 spells, and 5gp for the cantrips, but they never offer anything higher level without a special order request requiring x2 the usual scroll prep time, and charge 5x the gp cost for lvl 4 or higher special orders). Of course, conversely, a loan scrollmaker in an isolated oasis could sell create food water scrolls for 100x the cost due to demand in a huge desert. Usually PCs aren't scribing scrolls to sell, but are actually preparing extra healing for between encounters, extra utility spells that are always useful (like light, knock, and identify), an extra top level spell (especially since they frequently will have 1 casting a day, so picking between Fireball and Chain Lightning is tough, but if you scribed a fireball scroll, you can prep Chain Lightning and have the scroll as that backup ace in the hole), or very circumstantial specific spells for those times when you need them but aren't likely to have prepared them due to the oddity of needing them (Water Breathing while on a desert arc, flight while deep underground, Leomund's Tiny Hut in the middle of a city).
Now, of course, GM's not letting players know that they failed the DC check and misscribed a scroll so it has unexpected effects is a different matter entirely.
The gold cost represents the high-quality parchment and rare ink you need to create the scroll. Magic ink is expensive.
That said, I think the time and money requirements for scribing scrolls in 5th edition are crazy. In 3.5e, you could scribe a 4th-level spell scroll for 350 gold and 28 XP, and it would take about a day. In 5e, a 4th-level scroll takes two weeks and costs 2,500 gold to create. Then if you want to sell that 4th-level scroll, the base price is 2,000 gold. (5th edition numbers are from Xanathar's Guide to Everything, chapter 2). I think someone at WotC needs to recheck their math.
Player's Handbook, Chapter 8, in the "Downtime Activities" section (p. 187)
...each downtime activity requires a certain number of days to complete before you gain any benefit, and at least 8 hours of each day must be spent on the downtime activity for the day to count.
So a day is 24 hours. During that day, you need to spend at least 8 hours on the downtime activity (scribing a scroll in this case) for it to count. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't gain any benefit from spending more than 8 hours on the activity in one day. So you can't pull an all-nighter and try do to 2-3 days' worth of work in one 24-hour period. That's my opinion, but I think it sounds reasonable.
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't gain any benefit from spending more than 8 hours on the activity in one day. So you can't pull an all-nighter and try do to 2-3 days' worth of work in one 24-hour period. That's my opinion, but I think it sounds reasonable.
I would rule that it's possible, but you take levels of exhaustion and progressively more difficult checks to not mess up the scroll. If you need to make something urgently for some reason, then it may be worth it, but it definitely isn't a viable strategy for just increasing your general rate of output.
5th ed is dumb. Scribing a scroll should cost only ink, parchment or paper, time, materials, not gold. If you are paying someone else, sure... but if you are writing down the incantation, charging it with your magic, and providing the resources for the spell, why would you need to pay? You don't pay to cast the spell when you cast it from preparation/memory, and you already have to invest resources and time into preparation.
I can accept higher level spells taking more time and all spells requiring an Arcana check modified by the related spellcasting ability modifier vs the player's own Spell DC due to anyone using the scroll would gain the benefit of the scriber's Spellcaster Level, so the Rogue party member can cast the Cleric's level 10 healing scroll, but that is no excuse to bankrupt spellcasters to have a few extra spells for between battles.
The gp costs should be to buy scrolls from merchants, and be a baseline, with some even places having cheaper ones (A spellcasting family sells certain scrolls cheaper like Identify, Cure Wounds, and Cantrips, because they can churn them out, so they only charge 10gp for the lvl 1 spells, and 5gp for the cantrips, but they never offer anything higher level without a special order request requiring x2 the usual scroll prep time, and charge 5x the gp cost for lvl 4 or higher special orders). Of course, conversely, a loan scrollmaker in an isolated oasis could sell create food water scrolls for 100x the cost due to demand in a huge desert. Usually PCs aren't scribing scrolls to sell, but are actually preparing extra healing for between encounters, extra utility spells that are always useful (like light, knock, and identify), an extra top level spell (especially since they frequently will have 1 casting a day, so picking between Fireball and Chain Lightning is tough, but if you scribed a fireball scroll, you can prep Chain Lightning and have the scroll as that backup ace in the hole), or very circumstantial specific spells for those times when you need them but aren't likely to have prepared them due to the oddity of needing them (Water Breathing while on a desert arc, flight while deep underground, Leomund's Tiny Hut in the middle of a city).
Now, of course, GM's not letting players know that they failed the DC check and misscribed a scroll so it has unexpected effects is a different matter entirely.
Keep in mind, that according to basic rules, components are supposed to be used in every casting. The GP requirement, theoretically, is dealing with exactly what you listed; the high quality parchment, the inks and quill, and all of the associated spell components. I would also offer that it is covering food and drink to keep the caster's strength up, since it has been well-known for a while that magic item creation is taxing.
I see no reason not to do away with the gold requirement if you have ALL the things necessary to create the item in your inventory. However, that may actually take longer or be more expensive. GP is also included to help gauge time though, so you would still have to use it in that calculation, even if you don't spend it.
Personally, I still think the costings are waaaaaaay off when you get to the higher levels. I use a base price of 25 gp and then use Spell level and caster level you have that spell slot modifiers so that spells can be scribed at higher levels. So a 1st level spell cast as if it was using a 1st level spell slot is 25gp to make (1x1x25). A 9th level spell is 3825gp to make (9x17x25). This also allows flexibility for scribing a scroll at higher levels - a 1st level spell cast at 5th level is 225gp (1x9x25). For Cantrips I use 0.5 for spell level and the level of casting (for different damage cantrips).
I also change the crafting magic items speed to 100gp per day, with the rule that you can only work on a maximum of 2 scrolls per day.
I was also looking at doing a Spell level x Spell slot (rather than level you need to be to cast spell slot) - in that instance I'd make base price 50gp, ends up being slightly more expensive than my first option, but still has a similar path progression (and removes these scrolls that cost 250k...)
I think that you have created the best system for crafting spell scrolls I have ever read (at least for 5e). And I've been scouring the internet for months in preparation for creating and playing my next character (a wizard) lol.
Your logic is sound, your math makes sense... Your method is simple and objective, and most importantly - REASONABLE lol. Like, it actually makes sense and is fair. I will absolutely be disregarding every written "official" rule on this subject, and they will be replaced with the Sorce Method for Crafting Consumables. If there was an award I could give you, sir or madam, I would proudly present it to you lol. Personally, I feel you deserve at least part of the salary from all the writers responsible for the terrible 5e crafting rules.
Personally, I still think the costings are waaaaaaay off when you get to the higher levels. I use a base price of 25 gp and then use Spell level and caster level you have that spell slot modifiers so that spells can be scribed at higher levels. So a 1st level spell cast as if it was using a 1st level spell slot is 25gp to make (1x1x25). A 9th level spell is 3825gp to make (9x17x25). This also allows flexibility for scribing a scroll at higher levels - a 1st level spell cast at 5th level is 225gp (1x9x25). For Cantrips I use 0.5 for spell level and the level of casting (for different damage cantrips).
I also change the crafting magic items speed to 100gp per day, with the rule that you can only work on a maximum of 2 scrolls per day.
I was also looking at doing a Spell level x Spell slot (rather than level you need to be to cast spell slot) - in that instance I'd make base price 50gp, ends up being slightly more expensive than my first option, but still has a similar path progression (and removes these scrolls that cost 250k...)
I think that this cost method is almost perfect. Only thing I would change is instead of 25 it is 50 per level to line in with cost to wizards and their spellbooks. I would even say a wizard who has a modifier to their cost for certain spells would get that modifier to writing spell scrolls for those same spells.
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I can not locate any rules for the creation of magical scrolls in the rules provided here, in the books i have access to or on the wiki.
i have seen a couple of rules for scroll creation from players and gms:
Option 1: Cost to make: 25 x spell level (minimum 1) x caster level. time to make 1 day reguardless of dificulty. So? a lvl 20 wizard pays at least 500 G for a lvl 1 or cantrip scroll?
Option 2: 25 g cost + material costs + (days taken x spell level). So its always 25 gold base to make a scroll but it takes a long time relative to the results.
Option 3: 25 x spell level x (10-days taken to make [minimum 1]) + Material Cost. This method seems more fair. A the base cost of a 9th lvl scroll is 225 then is multiplied by how long you dont take to make it. Example. If you took 9 days to make it, the scroll would cost 225. But if you did it in 1 day, it would cost 2,250 to make the scroll.
Option 4: (Cost of Magic Item By Rarity /2 [because consumable]) / (days taken to make /2). Example: a level 9 scroll costs a base of 250,000 gold to make in supplies but if you spend more time crafting it (say 8 days) you would only pay 75k in materials.
The rules of scrolls are reported in the DMG. Now, I cannot be accurate since I don't have the DMG with me, but yes the cost and time are defined there according to the spell level.
DMG, p182. In the Downtime section. One thing to keep in mind, the Magic Item construction rules are sort of (IMHO) "Low Magic Campaign Prohibitive" and are more of a suggestion then a hard-core rule (they even say as much in the rules).
The other thing to look at is the spell scroll section in the DMG's magic items, page 200. THAT page gives you the RARITY level for scrolls, which you can then use to look at the crafting on p128.
The basic idea is that all magic items have a FORMULA. A character needs the formula for a magic item in order to create one. Formulas are given out by the DM whenever they feel like they want to give one out, there's absolutely no rules on formulas (other than "there are formulas").
Once a PC has a formula, they can make that item. Time and cost depends upon rarity (p128). And it's EXPENSIVE in both! I have heard of many DMs changing the costs and adjusting this table for their own game. :)
Example: A first level spell has a common rarity. p128 lists common items to cost: 100gp, and you need a minimum PC level of 3rd. Items are created at 25gp/8-hour day. So a 1st level spell scroll will take 4x8-hour days, and cost the 100gp in materials, etc.
A 2nd or 3rd level spell scroll is 500gp, and thus takes 20 days!
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box. – Proverb
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box. – Proverb
The latest Unearthed Arcana had a section on Scribing Scrolls - http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/downtime
Personally, I still think the costings are waaaaaaay off when you get to the higher levels. I use a base price of 25 gp and then use Spell level and caster level you have that spell slot modifiers so that spells can be scribed at higher levels. So a 1st level spell cast as if it was using a 1st level spell slot is 25gp to make (1x1x25). A 9th level spell is 3825gp to make (9x17x25). This also allows flexibility for scribing a scroll at higher levels - a 1st level spell cast at 5th level is 225gp (1x9x25). For Cantrips I use 0.5 for spell level and the level of casting (for different damage cantrips).
I also change the crafting magic items speed to 100gp per day, with the rule that you can only work on a maximum of 2 scrolls per day.
I was also looking at doing a Spell level x Spell slot (rather than level you need to be to cast spell slot) - in that instance I'd make base price 50gp, ends up being slightly more expensive than my first option, but still has a similar path progression (and removes these scrolls that cost 250k...)
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I'm a bit late to this discussion but it's worth pointing out that the creation cost of consumables is half the cost indicated by the Creation Cost table on pg. 129 of the DMG, as stated it the first sentence of the following paragraph.
The gold and time costs are too prohibitive. Much easier to just hire an NPC to cast a couple of spells than 1000's of gold and weeks of time to cast a spell once. The scroll and potion rules in 3.5 were good, I had never seen anyone figure out how to abuse them. Basically Wizards is telling players, "No, your 'wizard' can't scribe scrolls, brew potions, or make magic items. Magic items, scrolls, and potions come from the gods. Want magic, murder hobo for things, otherwise be happy you can cast spells."
Reality is that which we perceive it to be.
UA to the rescue.
https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA_Downtime.pdf
Thread may be old but was the top result I found when researching this. So, bump.
Thanks.
Reality is that which we perceive it to be.
It looks like that entire UA made its way into Xanathar's Guide to Everything. So it's official now.
5th ed is dumb. Scribing a scroll should cost only ink, parchment or paper, time, materials, not gold. If you are paying someone else, sure... but if you are writing down the incantation, charging it with your magic, and providing the resources for the spell, why would you need to pay? You don't pay to cast the spell when you cast it from preparation/memory, and you already have to invest resources and time into preparation.
I can accept higher level spells taking more time and all spells requiring an Arcana check modified by the related spellcasting ability modifier vs the player's own Spell DC due to anyone using the scroll would gain the benefit of the scriber's Spellcaster Level, so the Rogue party member can cast the Cleric's level 10 healing scroll, but that is no excuse to bankrupt spellcasters to have a few extra spells for between battles.
The gp costs should be to buy scrolls from merchants, and be a baseline, with some even places having cheaper ones (A spellcasting family sells certain scrolls cheaper like Identify, Cure Wounds, and Cantrips, because they can churn them out, so they only charge 10gp for the lvl 1 spells, and 5gp for the cantrips, but they never offer anything higher level without a special order request requiring x2 the usual scroll prep time, and charge 5x the gp cost for lvl 4 or higher special orders). Of course, conversely, a loan scrollmaker in an isolated oasis could sell create food water scrolls for 100x the cost due to demand in a huge desert. Usually PCs aren't scribing scrolls to sell, but are actually preparing extra healing for between encounters, extra utility spells that are always useful (like light, knock, and identify), an extra top level spell (especially since they frequently will have 1 casting a day, so picking between Fireball and Chain Lightning is tough, but if you scribed a fireball scroll, you can prep Chain Lightning and have the scroll as that backup ace in the hole), or very circumstantial specific spells for those times when you need them but aren't likely to have prepared them due to the oddity of needing them (Water Breathing while on a desert arc, flight while deep underground, Leomund's Tiny Hut in the middle of a city).
Now, of course, GM's not letting players know that they failed the DC check and misscribed a scroll so it has unexpected effects is a different matter entirely.
The gold cost represents the high-quality parchment and rare ink you need to create the scroll. Magic ink is expensive.
That said, I think the time and money requirements for scribing scrolls in 5th edition are crazy. In 3.5e, you could scribe a 4th-level spell scroll for 350 gold and 28 XP, and it would take about a day. In 5e, a 4th-level scroll takes two weeks and costs 2,500 gold to create. Then if you want to sell that 4th-level scroll, the base price is 2,000 gold. (5th edition numbers are from Xanathar's Guide to Everything, chapter 2). I think someone at WotC needs to recheck their math.
Hi!
If anyone can help direct me to where i can find the answer in the DMG or any of the other books that would be greatly appreciated.
Is one day equal to 24 hours or 8 hours?
Thank you!
Player's Handbook, Chapter 8, in the "Downtime Activities" section (p. 187)
So a day is 24 hours. During that day, you need to spend at least 8 hours on the downtime activity (scribing a scroll in this case) for it to count. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't gain any benefit from spending more than 8 hours on the activity in one day. So you can't pull an all-nighter and try do to 2-3 days' worth of work in one 24-hour period. That's my opinion, but I think it sounds reasonable.
I would rule that it's possible, but you take levels of exhaustion and progressively more difficult checks to not mess up the scroll. If you need to make something urgently for some reason, then it may be worth it, but it definitely isn't a viable strategy for just increasing your general rate of output.
*edited after figuring out the difference between reply and quote. Derp.
Keep in mind, that according to basic rules, components are supposed to be used in every casting. The GP requirement, theoretically, is dealing with exactly what you listed; the high quality parchment, the inks and quill, and all of the associated spell components. I would also offer that it is covering food and drink to keep the caster's strength up, since it has been well-known for a while that magic item creation is taxing.
I see no reason not to do away with the gold requirement if you have ALL the things necessary to create the item in your inventory. However, that may actually take longer or be more expensive. GP is also included to help gauge time though, so you would still have to use it in that calculation, even if you don't spend it.
I think that you have created the best system for crafting spell scrolls I have ever read (at least for 5e). And I've been scouring the internet for months in preparation for creating and playing my next character (a wizard) lol.
Your logic is sound, your math makes sense... Your method is simple and objective, and most importantly - REASONABLE lol. Like, it actually makes sense and is fair. I will absolutely be disregarding every written "official" rule on this subject, and they will be replaced with the Sorce Method for Crafting Consumables. If there was an award I could give you, sir or madam, I would proudly present it to you lol. Personally, I feel you deserve at least part of the salary from all the writers responsible for the terrible 5e crafting rules.
I think that this cost method is almost perfect. Only thing I would change is instead of 25 it is 50 per level to line in with cost to wizards and their spellbooks. I would even say a wizard who has a modifier to their cost for certain spells would get that modifier to writing spell scrolls for those same spells.