Scenario: Our party was in swamp terrain which is difficult terrain so our movement was halved. I used Spike Growth on a patch of swamp in an area around an enemy Troll. Our DM said the Difficult Terrain stacked and it's now "Ultimate" terrain. Essentially moving at 1/3 speed.
Is this correct? I looked at the rules for the terrain types and found nothing stating anything above or stacking with Difficult Terrain.
There are special instances of more difficult terrain in adventure and spell and moster effects, but they are not called difficult terrain and the DMG only refers to difficult terrain as 1/2 speed.
But the most important question is: did becoming extra difficult terrain increase or decrease the fun?
Our group had a little squabble over it but in the end we decided if the DM wanted it to be "Ultimate Terrain" well then it's ultimate terrain and it cost 15 movement to go one space. it didn't detract from the fun of the encounter but it the whole situation just didn't make any sense to us.
The way my group and I saw the situation Spike Growth would just add spikes to the already difficult terrain but wouldn't increase the movement of it. Mainly because the spell reads "The area becomes difficult terrain for the duration." To me that reads whatever the terrain type was, it now becomes difficult terrain.
Difficult Terrain is a "it is or it isn't" deal, there is no stacking. Adding a difficult terrain effect to difficult terrain just makes it difficult terrain. The best uses of this are when enemies have abilities letting them ignore specific types of difficult terrain. A Druid of high enough level ignores difficult terrain caused by natural plants and foliage and such, but if you use something like Web for instance, well they're back to being hampered by difficult terrain.
Spike Growth would not make difficult terrain "ultimate terrain" (an utterly ridiculous choice in name, by the way) or anything. But it still adds spikes which will still deal damage to anyone passing through it.
However, that's the RAW. Your DM has freedom to change rules as they want but if the group are not happy with it then maybe discuss it with the DM. I can understand their viewpoint that making difficult terrain more difficult may incur additional penalty but it can make things more tiresome to factor it in a game otherwise designed for simpler, more streamlined play (compare 5e D&D to something like Pathfinder 2, for instance).
On the plus side, if they keep the rule and you have spellcasters then by their own rule you can stack difficult terrain effects from different spells to seriously screw over your enemies, so they may have just handed you a powerful tool that's going to force them to readjust all their encounters from now on.
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I would say that spells like Plant Growth stack with difficult terrain, since they do not have the same name But as others have said, difficult terrain + difficult terrain = regular difficult terrain.
There's nothing in the rules about it stacking, but at least the DM went with the sensible form of stacking and made it +1ft for each source of difficult terrain instead of x2.
As a DM if I had a party traversing a swamp waist deep, with sucking mud under foot and someone cast a spell that hindered that movement, you would not be moving half pace.
Its already difficult terrain and i would increase the movement requirement by 1 every unique source of hindrance. Each DM should have final say in how it plays in their campaign. Follow the rules if you must , follow the spirit is better.
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I think it may be up for interpretation, but '1 foot of movement costs 2' and '1 foot of movement costs 4' doesn't add to be '1 foot of movement costs 8.' Difficult terrain and plant growth should add to cost 5 feet of movement per foot of distance.
I think it may be up for interpretation, but '1 foot of movement costs 2' and '1 foot of movement costs 4' doesn't add to be '1 foot of movement costs 8.' Difficult terrain and plant growth should add to cost 5 feet of movement per foot of distance.
2+4=5? Here are the relevant rules:
You move at half speed in difficult terrain--moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed--so you can cover only half the normal distance in a minute, an hour, or a day.
A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.
The part that needs the most interpretation is difficult terrain which says both "half speed" and "1 foot equals 2". One is obviously derivative of the other, but it doesn't indicate which. So the options are rather 4+2=6 or 4×2=8 for how much movement it costs to move.
Difficult terrain says 1 foot costs 2, that is one extra. Plant growth says that 1 foot costs 4. That is 3 extra. When those stack, each foot costs 1 foot plus 1+ 3 extra. It's not terribly difficult math.
Difficult terrain says 1 foot costs 2, that is one extra. Plant growth says that 1 foot costs 4. That is 3 extra. When those stack, each foot costs 1 foot plus 1+ 3 extra. It's not terribly difficult math.
1+1=2. (Difficult Terrain) Basic math. But since plant growth requires 4 feet to move 1 foot, 1 now is equal to 4. So in the difficult terrain formula 1=4 so substitute 4 for the 1’s in the original equation and it become 4+4=8 to move one foot.
Edit: I don’t use the “one extra, 3 extra” way. Kind of reminds me of a Laurel and Hardy routine about a 45 year man who fell in love with a 15 year old girl. He is 3 times her age. So he decides to wait 15 years. She is now 30 and he is 60. Now he’s only twice her age. How long does it take for her to catch up? lol
let your DM decide, but I agree difficult terrain doesn’t stack. Plant growth is. It difficult terrain so it does.
Difficult terrain says 1 foot costs 2, that is one extra. Plant growth says that 1 foot costs 4. That is 3 extra. When those stack, each foot costs 1 foot plus 1+ 3 extra. It's not terribly difficult math.
1+1=2. (Difficult Terrain) Basic math. But since plant growth requires 4 feet to move 1 foot, 1 now is equal to 4. So in the difficult terrain formula 1=4 so substitute 4 for the 1’s in the original equation and it become 4+4=8 to move one foot.
But each rule is about how much movement costs in terms of speed. Difficult terrain doesn't change your speed, only how much of your speed movement takes...
Edit: I don’t use the “one extra, 3 extra” way. Kind of reminds me of a Laurel and Hardy routine about a 45 year man who fell in love with a 15 year old girl. He is 3 times her age. So he decides to wait 15 years. She is now 30 and he is 60. Now he’s only twice her age. How long does it take for her to catch up? lol
let your DM decide, but I agree difficult terrain doesn’t stack. Plant growth is. It difficult terrain so it does.
yes.
Edit: my point is it is certainly not clear, but I would say that it could be interpreted any one of 4 ways: 4ft (doesn't stack), 5 ft, 6 ft, or 8 ft per foot.
Oh hey, I found a different description for difficult terrain in combat rules.
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
So this brings the rules interpretations down to these two:
Additive. Must spend 4 movement to move 1, plus 1 extra, 4+1=5.
Multiplicative. Must spend 4 movement to move 1 (1=4), and needs 1 extra foot to move 1 (1+1), so 4+4=8.
Difficult terrain says "Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot." (Chapter 9, Combat).
Plant Growth says "A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves."
So when actually moving one foot of movement through plant growth + difficult terrain, we apply the 1 from difficult terrain and 4 from plant growth for that one foot of movement.
Thus every foot of movement will use up 5 foot of your speed.
Oh hey, I found a different description for difficult terrain in combat rules.
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
So this brings the rules interpretations down to these two:
Additive. Must spend 4 movement to move 1, plus 1 extra, 4+1=5.
Multiplicative. Must spend 4 movement to move 1 (1=4), and needs 1 extra foot to move 1 (1+1), so 4+4=8.
Difficult terrain says "Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot."
Plant Growth says "A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves."
So when actually moving one actual foot of movement through plant growth + difficult terrain, we apply the 1 from difficult terrain and 4 from plant growth from that one foot of movement.
Thus every foot of movement will use up 5 foot of your speed.
Yes, that is the additive interpretation I explained.
This highlights one of the biggest problems with the rules: they mostly generally work the way that they sound like they should when read individually, but as soon as they start interacting things turn bad quick. I think we can agree that
Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.
and
moving 1 foot in difficult terrain costs 2 feet of speed
[the rest was about travel pace and not relevant] are functionally the same on their own. The problem is that they interact quite differently with other parts of the game.
Where is the idea that any of these features stack (in 5e at least) coming from? This is the epitome of the "specific beats general" paradigm. All difficult terrain has a 2:1 ratio on movement speed, regardless of how many sources of "difficult terrain" are in effect for a specified area. Plant Growth has a 4:1 ratio on movement speed for a specified area. Specific beats general; they don't stack.
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You seem to be using "specific beats general" wrong. It doesn't mean "this one is more widely applicable, therefore more general, so doesn't apply anymore." It means that specific exceptions can be made to rules. Both Plant Growth and difficult terrain are specific exceptions to the movement speed rules, and neither directly accounts for the other.
No, Sigred has a good point. You've got two conflicting rules (spend 2 points for every 1 foot moved vs spend 4 points for every 1 foot moved.) Difficult terrain is part of the game's general rules. Plant Growth is an exceptional effect with its own rules. You can definitely make the case that Plant Growth is the more specific rule of the two.
It's not necessarily the only valid way to approach the rules conflict but it's a valid option.
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Scenario: Our party was in swamp terrain which is difficult terrain so our movement was halved. I used Spike Growth on a patch of swamp in an area around an enemy Troll. Our DM said the Difficult Terrain stacked and it's now "Ultimate" terrain. Essentially moving at 1/3 speed.
Is this correct? I looked at the rules for the terrain types and found nothing stating anything above or stacking with Difficult Terrain.
There are special instances of more difficult terrain in adventure and spell and moster effects, but they are not called difficult terrain and the DMG only refers to difficult terrain as 1/2 speed.
But the most important question is: did becoming extra difficult terrain increase or decrease the fun?
Our group had a little squabble over it but in the end we decided if the DM wanted it to be "Ultimate Terrain" well then it's ultimate terrain and it cost 15 movement to go one space. it didn't detract from the fun of the encounter but it the whole situation just didn't make any sense to us.
The way my group and I saw the situation Spike Growth would just add spikes to the already difficult terrain but wouldn't increase the movement of it. Mainly because the spell reads "The area becomes difficult terrain for the duration." To me that reads whatever the terrain type was, it now becomes difficult terrain.
Difficult Terrain is a "it is or it isn't" deal, there is no stacking. Adding a difficult terrain effect to difficult terrain just makes it difficult terrain. The best uses of this are when enemies have abilities letting them ignore specific types of difficult terrain. A Druid of high enough level ignores difficult terrain caused by natural plants and foliage and such, but if you use something like Web for instance, well they're back to being hampered by difficult terrain.
Spike Growth would not make difficult terrain "ultimate terrain" (an utterly ridiculous choice in name, by the way) or anything. But it still adds spikes which will still deal damage to anyone passing through it.
However, that's the RAW. Your DM has freedom to change rules as they want but if the group are not happy with it then maybe discuss it with the DM. I can understand their viewpoint that making difficult terrain more difficult may incur additional penalty but it can make things more tiresome to factor it in a game otherwise designed for simpler, more streamlined play (compare 5e D&D to something like Pathfinder 2, for instance).
On the plus side, if they keep the rule and you have spellcasters then by their own rule you can stack difficult terrain effects from different spells to seriously screw over your enemies, so they may have just handed you a powerful tool that's going to force them to readjust all their encounters from now on.
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Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
I would say that spells like Plant Growth stack with difficult terrain, since they do not have the same name But as others have said, difficult terrain + difficult terrain = regular difficult terrain.
There's nothing in the rules about it stacking, but at least the DM went with the sensible form of stacking and made it +1ft for each source of difficult terrain instead of x2.
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I think it may be up for interpretation, but '1 foot of movement costs 2' and '1 foot of movement costs 4' doesn't add to be '1 foot of movement costs 8.' Difficult terrain and plant growth should add to cost 5 feet of movement per foot of distance.
2+4=5? Here are the relevant rules:
The part that needs the most interpretation is difficult terrain which says both "half speed" and "1 foot equals 2". One is obviously derivative of the other, but it doesn't indicate which. So the options are rather 4+2=6 or 4×2=8 for how much movement it costs to move.
Difficult terrain says 1 foot costs 2, that is one extra. Plant growth says that 1 foot costs 4. That is 3 extra. When those stack, each foot costs 1 foot plus 1+ 3 extra. It's not terribly difficult math.
1+1=2. (Difficult Terrain) Basic math. But since plant growth requires 4 feet to move 1 foot, 1 now is equal to 4. So in the difficult terrain formula 1=4 so substitute 4 for the 1’s in the original equation and it become 4+4=8 to move one foot.
Edit: I don’t use the “one extra, 3 extra” way. Kind of reminds me of a Laurel and Hardy routine about a 45 year man who fell in love with a 15 year old girl. He is 3 times her age. So he decides to wait 15 years. She is now 30 and he is 60. Now he’s only twice her age. How long does it take for her to catch up? lol
let your DM decide, but I agree difficult terrain doesn’t stack. Plant growth is. It difficult terrain so it does.
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But each rule is about how much movement costs in terms of speed. Difficult terrain doesn't change your speed, only how much of your speed movement takes...
yes.
Edit: my point is it is certainly not clear, but I would say that it could be interpreted any one of 4 ways: 4ft (doesn't stack), 5 ft, 6 ft, or 8 ft per foot.
Oh hey, I found a different description for difficult terrain in combat rules.
So this brings the rules interpretations down to these two:
Difficult terrain says "Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot." (Chapter 9, Combat).
Plant Growth says "A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves."
So when actually moving one foot of movement through plant growth + difficult terrain, we apply the 1 from difficult terrain and 4 from plant growth for that one foot of movement.
Thus every foot of movement will use up 5 foot of your speed.
Yes, that is the additive interpretation I explained.
This highlights one of the biggest problems with the rules: they mostly generally work the way that they sound like they should when read individually, but as soon as they start interacting things turn bad quick. I think we can agree that
and
[the rest was about travel pace and not relevant] are functionally the same on their own. The problem is that they interact quite differently with other parts of the game.
Where is the idea that any of these features stack (in 5e at least) coming from? This is the epitome of the "specific beats general" paradigm. All difficult terrain has a 2:1 ratio on movement speed, regardless of how many sources of "difficult terrain" are in effect for a specified area. Plant Growth has a 4:1 ratio on movement speed for a specified area. Specific beats general; they don't stack.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You seem to be using "specific beats general" wrong. It doesn't mean "this one is more widely applicable, therefore more general, so doesn't apply anymore." It means that specific exceptions can be made to rules. Both Plant Growth and difficult terrain are specific exceptions to the movement speed rules, and neither directly accounts for the other.
No, Sigred has a good point. You've got two conflicting rules (spend 2 points for every 1 foot moved vs spend 4 points for every 1 foot moved.) Difficult terrain is part of the game's general rules. Plant Growth is an exceptional effect with its own rules. You can definitely make the case that Plant Growth is the more specific rule of the two.
It's not necessarily the only valid way to approach the rules conflict but it's a valid option.
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