A level Two Rogue, Human Variant with the investigator feature. As far as I can tell this works but I'm not sure how to calculate the modifier. I believe It's either:
Expertise (Your proficiency bonus is doubled), Investigator (you add double your proficiency bonus).
OR
is it 11?
Investigator
(Unearthed Arcana)
You have an eye for detail and can pick out the smallest clues. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency in the Investigation skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
You can take the Search action as a bonus action.
Expertise
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves' tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies. At 6th level, you can choose two more of your proficiencies (in skills or with thieves' tools) to gain this benefit.
Your proficiency bonus can’t be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. For example, if two different rules say you can add your proficiency bonus to a Wisdom saving throw, you nevertheless add the bonus only once when you make the save.
Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be multiplied or divided (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. For example, the rogue’s Expertise feature doubles the proficiency bonus for certain ability checks. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once.
I would agree with Stormknight on this, because (and this is arguing the 'spirit of the rule') I think those Skill Feats in Unearthed Arcana are meant to give characters Expertise in a skill that they wouldn't have if they're not a Rogue or a Bard. For example, in one of the campaigns I play in, our Wizard took the Arcanist feat to get Expertise in arcana checks.
As Stormknight said, proficiency bonus can't be increased more than once, so expertise makes the feat redundant. Your best bet is to put expertise in a different skill or pick a different feat. The Observant feat gives you a +5 to passive investigation. This does stack with expertise so your +7 becomes +12 for passive. I believe Jeremy Crawford has clarified somewhere that your passive score is a floor, so that the worst you could get in an active role would be 22.
As Stormknight said, proficiency bonus can't be increased more than once, so expertise makes the feat redundant. Your best bet is to put expertise in a different skill or pick a different feat. The Observant feat gives you a +5 to passive investigation. This does stack with expertise so your +7 becomes +12 for passive. I believe Jeremy Crawford has clarified somewhere that your passive score is a floor, so that the worst you could get in an active role would be 22.
I'm pretty sure the passive score is not a floor. That would make "easy" checks (DC 10) auto-pass for almost every ability check (barring negative ability modifiers and no proficiency), and "medium" checks (DC 15) auto-pass for ability checks for which the character has a decent ability modifier and proficiency. For example, a level 1 Rogue with 16 Dex and proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "medium" difficulty locks (+3 from Dex, +2 proficiency) under pressure. A Wizard with 10 Dex, and no proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "easy" locks (+0 from Dex, no proficiency bonus) under pressure. It makes sense for them to succeed given enough time (which is one of the uses for the passive score), but not under pressure (which requires a roll).
As Stormknight said, proficiency bonus can't be increased more than once, so expertise makes the feat redundant. Your best bet is to put expertise in a different skill or pick a different feat. The Observant feat gives you a +5 to passive investigation. This does stack with expertise so your +7 becomes +12 for passive. I believe Jeremy Crawford has clarified somewhere that your passive score is a floor, so that the worst you could get in an active role would be 22.
I'm pretty sure the passive score is not a floor. That would make "easy" checks (DC 10) auto-pass for almost every ability check (barring negative ability modifiers and no proficiency), and "medium" checks (DC 15) auto-pass for ability checks for which the character has a decent ability modifier and proficiency. For example, a level 1 Rogue with 16 Dex and proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "medium" difficulty locks (+3 from Dex, +2 proficiency) under pressure. A Wizard with 10 Dex, and no proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "easy" locks (+0 from Dex, no proficiency bonus) under pressure. It makes sense for them to succeed given enough time (which is one of the uses for the passive score), but not under pressure (which requires a roll).
The passive score and minimum checks only apply to skills that can be passive and are always naturally on without trying. Thieves tools, stealth, sleight of hand, and so on are not passive - you must actively do them. Perception is always on - your eyes will always be seeing the world and your ears will always be hearing things and so on. The passive skill check/minimum is to represent what you see and hear without actively having to try. It's what you notice even when you're not really looking out for anything. Investigation is another always-on ability. Your brain will, to some lesser extent, actively analyse its surroundings and work things out logically for you without trying to. When you do basic mental arithment like 1+1 you don't need to stop and think, you just immediately know the answer. When you check a very simple clue you just know the answer without even having to try and solve it and you may just know the places where a common trap could be because it's just obvious to you. It's rare that when you look at a simple math question of 3+2 that suddenly you are stumped and just cannot figure t out -- if you had to search a desk for papers quickly and without putting much time and effort in, would you not search the drawers (passive) or would you just never ever think of it and stand there absolutely dumbfounded (poor roll)?
There are some things that, either from biology, natural ability, habit or such as, your senses and brain can simply do before you even need to "actively" focus on it. These are the passives - and they come with a minimum for actives because it's not putting more focus in is somehow make you see less, hear less or suddenly forget how to open a drawer or something.
As Stormknight said, proficiency bonus can't be increased more than once, so expertise makes the feat redundant. Your best bet is to put expertise in a different skill or pick a different feat. The Observant feat gives you a +5 to passive investigation. This does stack with expertise so your +7 becomes +12 for passive. I believe Jeremy Crawford has clarified somewhere that your passive score is a floor, so that the worst you could get in an active role would be 22.
I'm pretty sure the passive score is not a floor. That would make "easy" checks (DC 10) auto-pass for almost every ability check (barring negative ability modifiers and no proficiency), and "medium" checks (DC 15) auto-pass for ability checks for which the character has a decent ability modifier and proficiency. For example, a level 1 Rogue with 16 Dex and proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "medium" difficulty locks (+3 from Dex, +2 proficiency) under pressure. A Wizard with 10 Dex, and no proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "easy" locks (+0 from Dex, no proficiency bonus) under pressure. It makes sense for them to succeed given enough time (which is one of the uses for the passive score), but not under pressure (which requires a roll).
The passive score and minimum checks only apply to skills that can be passive and are always naturally on without trying. Thieves tools, stealth, sleight of hand, and so on are not passive - you must actively do them. Perception is always on - your eyes will always be seeing the world and your ears will always be hearing things and so on. The passive skill check/minimum is to represent what you see and hear without actively having to try. It's what you notice even when you're not really looking out for anything. Investigation is another always-on ability. Your brain will, to some lesser extent, actively analyse its surroundings and work things out logically for you without trying to. When you do basic mental arithment like 1+1 you don't need to stop and think, you just immediately know the answer. When you check a very simple clue you just know the answer without even having to try and solve it and you may just know the places where a common trap could be because it's just obvious to you. It's rare that when you look at a simple math question of 3+2 that suddenly you are stumped and just cannot figure t out -- if you had to search a desk for papers quickly and without putting much time and effort in, would you not search the drawers (passive) or would you just never ever think of it and stand there absolutely dumbfounded (poor roll)?
There are some things that, either from biology, natural ability, habit or such as, your senses and brain can simply do before you even need to "actively" focus on it. These are the passives - and they come with a minimum for actives because it's not putting more focus in is somehow make you see less, hear less or suddenly forget how to open a drawer or something.
That still doesn't translate to a floor. In particular, the Observant feat gives you a bonus to passive Perception and Investigation, but no bonus to those skill otherwise. So a Search would not benefit from that bonus, and in fact can result in a lower roll than your passive score. In a situation where, for example, there is a hidden object, which you must actively search for to discover (say, it's hidden in a drawer), your passive score is entirely irrelevant, that bonus from Observant wouldn't apply, and you very well may end up with a roll under your passive score.
Moreover, you seem to be conflating "mental" skills with "passive checks". While in real life, you don't strain and struggle and expend effort to perceive something, that does not mean it should be treated as a passive check. Similarly, while in real life you do expend effort in order to pick a lock, that does not mean it must be treated as an active check: if you take the time to keep working at it, and there is no time pressure, and no consequences for failed checks, it can be treated as a passive check. Generally speaking, there are two uses for passive checks/scores: results over time (which require no consequences to failed checks), and secret ability checks. Passive Perception to notice things in the environment is useful not because it gives you a baseline, or floor, but because it requires no dice rolls. If you ask players to roll Perception to notice something, they'll know there's something to notice, which is information the characters might not have. Also, it speeds up play by reducing dice rolls. It's not because it's something so easy you don't need to think about doing.
Passive abilities set the "floor" of the check. If they didn't detect it with their passive ability, then they can roll to see if they actively detect it, if they don't roll higher then their passive, then the passive stands as the total number on the check. Passive should always be checked first before a roll is called for or initiated.
An example would be a DC 14 investigation check to discover a false floor of a drawer. If their passive investigation is 14 or higher they automatically succeed, no roll required. If their passive is lower then they can roll, but their total score will never be lower than their passive.
If they choose to actively search, they automatically discover anything with a DC lower than their passive score. The roll will give them a chance to supersede their passive score if they roll higher, but then can never have a score lower than their passive. Passive scores are more powerful than active scores, which makes the Observant feat so powerful.
A player at first level with a 16 INT (+3) and Observant feat with expertise would have:
3(INT) + 2 (Prof) + 2 (expertise) + 5 (Observant) = 10+3+2+2+5 = 22 passive Investigation. And it only goes up from there as their Proficiency increases. Something would have to be extremely hidden for the character to miss it in a search.
Now, passive is used by the DM (not the player) to see if something is uncovered or noticed by the players. Depending on the players' actions. If they are ignoring the surrounding area and just moving through quickly, I might give them a quick description of something or mention points on interest, if they take the bait and look around, move closer or show interest then I would tell them what they notice depending on their passive score or active roll. So it's not all-knowing perception, you just don't just walk by a room and point out hidden doors at a glance, your passive gives you a nibble of what's wrong or doesn't fit, whether you explore is up to you as a player.
Sorry Tonio but I disagree completely. And it's a DM interpretation thing. A passive anything is precisely something you don't have to expend any effort to do - it just happens. That's what "passive" actually means. A passive perception is what you perceive without putting any effort into doing so - what you will notice without trying. This is what the words mean and how it is described in the PHB. I'll go with the books over your words, sorry. I will never agree that actively doing something means you will fare less than if you weren't trying.
Let's set an example: the group enters the room where there is a secret door and it is a DC 15 to notice it. However, the group specifically decide to look for any hidden doors as soon as they enter: so you have them roll, of course, because they're actively looking. Now, let's say a character, we'll call him Dave, rolls a 13 but has a passive perception of 16. How do you logically explain failing to find something he would have noticed even if he did not search? Did the act of looking at every wall somehow magically make it invisible to his eyes or something?
Let's try a real world scenario. When you walk into a room in real life there will be certain things you can see - details and things your eyes pick up right away. Does the intention to look for something specific somehow make things invisible to you when you choose to look all around the room? If you were trying to find the plant pot in the middle of the room that you would have seen anyway suddenly disappear if you choose to actually look for it?
I will always, everytime, treat a passive score for relevant skills, as a floor. It's up to the DM to use it this way, and rules designer Jeremy crawford agrees that if a DM wants a passive score can definitely be a floor:
I understand the "take 10" approach to passives, and use it myself, but this not the only use of the passves and things like perception and investigation which are "always on" senses are different to "actively used only" skills like picking a lock or performing backflips.
You're talking about a functional, rather than hard, floor. That is, in any situation in which the passive score applies, given that your passive score will be checked before attempting the active check, any result on the active check that is worse than the passive score is irrelevant.
However, I still wouldn't refer to it as a floor, if only to avoid the implication of an actual hard floor, and to avoid expectations of floors on other (non-always on) skills. Especially considering how even always-on skills have non-always on uses (e.g. searching a desk with closed drawers and false bottoms: passive score doesn't apply, since you need to actively go through and open drawers, knock on stuff, etc; it's entirely plausible that you get distracted by one feature and completely miss the target).
On the other hand, if you choose to use the optional rule of having natural 1s and 20s have special effects (e.g. false information on natural 1s that fail, or extra information on natural 20s that pass, for information gathering skills), then setting the passive score as a floor negates the 1s, when it shouldn't. Consider: "You see a figure walking towards you at a distance (Perception DC 15 to notice it's a human, DC 20 to notice it has blue eyes). Elfo (passive Perception 17), you notice it's a human." Elfo's player asks "What color are their eyes?" DM: "You're not sure, roll Perception". Elfo's player rolls a 1. With floor: "You're still not sure." Without floor: "They're black" (Elfo misinterpreted a shadow across the human's faxe).
By the way, the "take 10" approach is clearly stated in the PHB as one of the uses for passive scores.
TL;DR: Gotcha, passive scores can function as a floor for always-on skills, yep. But only for those, and only for their always-on uses, and only if you decide not to treat natural 1s and 20s specially.
It's +7, because you only add a proficiency bonus once, whether you're adding the regular bonus, half the bonus such as with Jack Of All Trades, or double the bonus, such as with Expertise. The "add double your proficiency bonus" from Investigator and the "add double your proficiency bonus" from Expertise don't stack. It's like getting Advantage on a role from two different sources. You don't have "Double Advantage", you still just roll twice and take the higher result.
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A level Two Rogue, Human Variant with the investigator feature. As far as I can tell this works but I'm not sure how to calculate the modifier. I believe It's either:
+3 (16 intelligence), +2 (Proficiency Bonus), +2 (Expertise), +2(Investigator Feature) = +9 Investigation check.
OR
+3 (16 intelligence), +4 [Proficiency Bonus{+2 (Normal Proficiency) * 2 (because Expertise)}], +8 (Investigator Feature doubles +4 Proficiency Bonus) = +15
Expertise (Your proficiency bonus is doubled), Investigator (you add double your proficiency bonus).
OR
is it 11?
Investigator
(Unearthed Arcana)
You have an eye for detail and can pick out the smallest clues. You gain the following benefits:
Expertise
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves' tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
At 6th level, you can choose two more of your proficiencies (in skills or with thieves' tools) to gain this benefit.
I believe that the answer is +7 (+3 ability bonus, +4 from doubled proficiency bonus).
Assuming that you're referring to the investigator feat from this UA article.
At most you would add double your proficiency bonus - see the rules below.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#ProficiencyBonus
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I would agree with Stormknight on this, because (and this is arguing the 'spirit of the rule') I think those Skill Feats in Unearthed Arcana are meant to give characters Expertise in a skill that they wouldn't have if they're not a Rogue or a Bard. For example, in one of the campaigns I play in, our Wizard took the Arcanist feat to get Expertise in arcana checks.
As Stormknight said, proficiency bonus can't be increased more than once, so expertise makes the feat redundant. Your best bet is to put expertise in a different skill or pick a different feat. The Observant feat gives you a +5 to passive investigation. This does stack with expertise so your +7 becomes +12 for passive. I believe Jeremy Crawford has clarified somewhere that your passive score is a floor, so that the worst you could get in an active role would be 22.
I'm pretty sure the passive score is not a floor. That would make "easy" checks (DC 10) auto-pass for almost every ability check (barring negative ability modifiers and no proficiency), and "medium" checks (DC 15) auto-pass for ability checks for which the character has a decent ability modifier and proficiency. For example, a level 1 Rogue with 16 Dex and proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "medium" difficulty locks (+3 from Dex, +2 proficiency) under pressure. A Wizard with 10 Dex, and no proficiency with Thieves' Tools would be unable to fail at picking "easy" locks (+0 from Dex, no proficiency bonus) under pressure. It makes sense for them to succeed given enough time (which is one of the uses for the passive score), but not under pressure (which requires a roll).
The passive score and minimum checks only apply to skills that can be passive and are always naturally on without trying. Thieves tools, stealth, sleight of hand, and so on are not passive - you must actively do them. Perception is always on - your eyes will always be seeing the world and your ears will always be hearing things and so on. The passive skill check/minimum is to represent what you see and hear without actively having to try. It's what you notice even when you're not really looking out for anything. Investigation is another always-on ability. Your brain will, to some lesser extent, actively analyse its surroundings and work things out logically for you without trying to. When you do basic mental arithment like 1+1 you don't need to stop and think, you just immediately know the answer. When you check a very simple clue you just know the answer without even having to try and solve it and you may just know the places where a common trap could be because it's just obvious to you. It's rare that when you look at a simple math question of 3+2 that suddenly you are stumped and just cannot figure t out -- if you had to search a desk for papers quickly and without putting much time and effort in, would you not search the drawers (passive) or would you just never ever think of it and stand there absolutely dumbfounded (poor roll)?
There are some things that, either from biology, natural ability, habit or such as, your senses and brain can simply do before you even need to "actively" focus on it. These are the passives - and they come with a minimum for actives because it's not putting more focus in is somehow make you see less, hear less or suddenly forget how to open a drawer or something.
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That still doesn't translate to a floor. In particular, the Observant feat gives you a bonus to passive Perception and Investigation, but no bonus to those skill otherwise. So a Search would not benefit from that bonus, and in fact can result in a lower roll than your passive score. In a situation where, for example, there is a hidden object, which you must actively search for to discover (say, it's hidden in a drawer), your passive score is entirely irrelevant, that bonus from Observant wouldn't apply, and you very well may end up with a roll under your passive score.
Moreover, you seem to be conflating "mental" skills with "passive checks". While in real life, you don't strain and struggle and expend effort to perceive something, that does not mean it should be treated as a passive check. Similarly, while in real life you do expend effort in order to pick a lock, that does not mean it must be treated as an active check: if you take the time to keep working at it, and there is no time pressure, and no consequences for failed checks, it can be treated as a passive check. Generally speaking, there are two uses for passive checks/scores: results over time (which require no consequences to failed checks), and secret ability checks. Passive Perception to notice things in the environment is useful not because it gives you a baseline, or floor, but because it requires no dice rolls. If you ask players to roll Perception to notice something, they'll know there's something to notice, which is information the characters might not have. Also, it speeds up play by reducing dice rolls. It's not because it's something so easy you don't need to think about doing.
Passive abilities set the "floor" of the check. If they didn't detect it with their passive ability, then they can roll to see if they actively detect it, if they don't roll higher then their passive, then the passive stands as the total number on the check. Passive should always be checked first before a roll is called for or initiated.
An example would be a DC 14 investigation check to discover a false floor of a drawer. If their passive investigation is 14 or higher they automatically succeed, no roll required. If their passive is lower then they can roll, but their total score will never be lower than their passive.
If they choose to actively search, they automatically discover anything with a DC lower than their passive score. The roll will give them a chance to supersede their passive score if they roll higher, but then can never have a score lower than their passive. Passive scores are more powerful than active scores, which makes the Observant feat so powerful.
A player at first level with a 16 INT (+3) and Observant feat with expertise would have:
3(INT) + 2 (Prof) + 2 (expertise) + 5 (Observant) = 10+3+2+2+5 = 22 passive Investigation. And it only goes up from there as their Proficiency increases. Something would have to be extremely hidden for the character to miss it in a search.
Now, passive is used by the DM (not the player) to see if something is uncovered or noticed by the players. Depending on the players' actions. If they are ignoring the surrounding area and just moving through quickly, I might give them a quick description of something or mention points on interest, if they take the bait and look around, move closer or show interest then I would tell them what they notice depending on their passive score or active roll. So it's not all-knowing perception, you just don't just walk by a room and point out hidden doors at a glance, your passive gives you a nibble of what's wrong or doesn't fit, whether you explore is up to you as a player.
Sorry Tonio but I disagree completely. And it's a DM interpretation thing. A passive anything is precisely something you don't have to expend any effort to do - it just happens. That's what "passive" actually means. A passive perception is what you perceive without putting any effort into doing so - what you will notice without trying. This is what the words mean and how it is described in the PHB. I'll go with the books over your words, sorry. I will never agree that actively doing something means you will fare less than if you weren't trying.
Let's set an example: the group enters the room where there is a secret door and it is a DC 15 to notice it. However, the group specifically decide to look for any hidden doors as soon as they enter: so you have them roll, of course, because they're actively looking. Now, let's say a character, we'll call him Dave, rolls a 13 but has a passive perception of 16. How do you logically explain failing to find something he would have noticed even if he did not search? Did the act of looking at every wall somehow magically make it invisible to his eyes or something?
Let's try a real world scenario. When you walk into a room in real life there will be certain things you can see - details and things your eyes pick up right away. Does the intention to look for something specific somehow make things invisible to you when you choose to look all around the room? If you were trying to find the plant pot in the middle of the room that you would have seen anyway suddenly disappear if you choose to actually look for it?
I will always, everytime, treat a passive score for relevant skills, as a floor. It's up to the DM to use it this way, and rules designer Jeremy crawford agrees that if a DM wants a passive score can definitely be a floor:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/868491574782574592
I understand the "take 10" approach to passives, and use it myself, but this not the only use of the passves and things like perception and investigation which are "always on" senses are different to "actively used only" skills like picking a lock or performing backflips.
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I see what you mean. Sorry it took so long . =/
You're talking about a functional, rather than hard, floor. That is, in any situation in which the passive score applies, given that your passive score will be checked before attempting the active check, any result on the active check that is worse than the passive score is irrelevant.
However, I still wouldn't refer to it as a floor, if only to avoid the implication of an actual hard floor, and to avoid expectations of floors on other (non-always on) skills. Especially considering how even always-on skills have non-always on uses (e.g. searching a desk with closed drawers and false bottoms: passive score doesn't apply, since you need to actively go through and open drawers, knock on stuff, etc; it's entirely plausible that you get distracted by one feature and completely miss the target).
On the other hand, if you choose to use the optional rule of having natural 1s and 20s have special effects (e.g. false information on natural 1s that fail, or extra information on natural 20s that pass, for information gathering skills), then setting the passive score as a floor negates the 1s, when it shouldn't. Consider: "You see a figure walking towards you at a distance (Perception DC 15 to notice it's a human, DC 20 to notice it has blue eyes). Elfo (passive Perception 17), you notice it's a human." Elfo's player asks "What color are their eyes?" DM: "You're not sure, roll Perception". Elfo's player rolls a 1. With floor: "You're still not sure." Without floor: "They're black" (Elfo misinterpreted a shadow across the human's faxe).
By the way, the "take 10" approach is clearly stated in the PHB as one of the uses for passive scores.
TL;DR: Gotcha, passive scores can function as a floor for always-on skills, yep. But only for those, and only for their always-on uses, and only if you decide not to treat natural 1s and 20s specially.
It's +7, because you only add a proficiency bonus once, whether you're adding the regular bonus, half the bonus such as with Jack Of All Trades, or double the bonus, such as with Expertise. The "add double your proficiency bonus" from Investigator and the "add double your proficiency bonus" from Expertise don't stack. It's like getting Advantage on a role from two different sources. You don't have "Double Advantage", you still just roll twice and take the higher result.