I don't see any difference between copying a spell from a spell scroll to copying it from some tome. Copying a spell found like that: a tome or page found somewhere, doesn't require checks and doesn't destroy the original written spell. I see no reason why a spell scroll would be any different - whether upon a magical scroll or non-magical page, the paper's gonna have the same stuff on it to copy from.
So, in my games if a wizard finds a spell scroll of a wizard spell, they can copy the spell into their spellbook and still have the scroll to use for casting the spell once without spell slots. It's not game-breaking or a big deal, and makes more sense to me.
Necro'ing a super old thread, but I'm responding in case others reach this page due to google like I did. This is not the RAW, and I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion. If charging a spell into a spell scroll for one time use was the same as any spell recording, then a wizard could just make spell scrolls of any of their spells for super cheap which would be broken. Imagine if any particular wizard could just create fireball scrolls on a whim for only a few hundred gold worth of ink/paper. A spell copied onto paper isn't the same as magically enchanting a piece of paper to hold a charged spell.
What are you on about?
I'm not talking about making magic item scrolls. I was referring to scribing spells into a spellbook.
Your post makes no ****in' sense at all.
If you can cast it without spell slots, that's a magic item scroll. "still have the scroll to use for casting the spell once without spell slots. It's not game-breaking or a big deal, and makes more sense to me." That's literally describing a magic scroll imbued with a spell, not a spellbook copy of a spell. You literally can't have it both ways where you can transcribe it without destruction but use it to cast a spell. If that "makes no ****in' sense at all", then I don't know what to tell you. Part of how enchanting a magic spell scroll is that the spell is imbued into the parchment itself, you have to use the scroll in order to make the arcana check to see if you can understand it in time. If the transcription didn't destroy the scroll, then there wouldn't be the risk in the first place.
I'm well aware of the RAW. Your explanation of why the spell scroll is consumed when copied from is something you made up. The RAW gives no explanation or reasoning for the rule. And I disagree entirely with the premise. Which is why I said that IN MY GAMES (just to make that clear, since you missed it) I don't follow the RAW.
In spite of this thread being from 2018 and having been necro'ed twice (now for a third time) we still don't have any answer to what it takes to copy a Spell Scroll into your Spellbook.
Yes, you need to pass the Arcana check, that much is given.
But we have yet to clear out whether or not you need to spend gold and hours to copy the Spell Scroll. Remember that another wizard spent time and gold creating the Spell Scroll in the first place, so the resources were already spent on the spell, just not by the one copying the spell.
In spite of this thread being from 2018 and having been necro'ed twice (now for a third time) we still don't have any answer to what it takes to copy a Spell Scroll into your Spellbook.
Yes, you need to pass the Arcana check, that much is given.
But we have yet to clear out whether or not you need to spend gold and hours to copy the Spell Scroll. Remember that another wizard spent time and gold creating the Spell Scroll in the first place, so the resources were already spent on the spell, just not by the one copying the spell.
The answer is in the wizard feature in the bit about copying spells. Here it is, with highlights.
YOUR SPELLBOOK
The spells that you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as intellectual breakthroughs you have had about the nature of the multiverse. You might find other spells during your adventures. You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard’s chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library.
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
And from the Magic Item description of the Spell Scroll:
A wizard spell on a spell scroll can be copied just as spells in spellbooks can be copied. When a spell is copied from a spell scroll, the copier must succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check with a DC equal to 10 + the spell's level. If the check succeeds, the spell is successfully copied. Whether the check succeeds or fails, the spell scroll is destroyed.
--
So if you found a scroll of Mirror Image, a 2nd level spell, it would require:
An Arcana check of DC 12. 4 hours. 100 gp.
The scroll is destroyed and you get to add the spell to your spellbook.
I find this logic a bit odd (and yes I can appreciate that magic isn't necessarily logical).
Why would a scroll be destroyed if you are only copying/translating the data to a spellbook?
Does that mean a spellbook is a magic item and that it would be detected if a detect magic was cast on it? A magical scroll would and they are not a wizards spellbook.
If you are effectively transfering the knowledge of the "magical scroll" to a book (which should destroy the scroll) I think it is more reasonable to skip the cost of writing it in the book because you have used the scroll which would likely have a much higher cost). Otherwise I think you are creating an extra penalty on the wizard class.
A magicians book is an instruction set for gathering and using magical energy.
A spell scroll is magic energy already gathered and ready for release set into an scroll. If you copy it wrong you stand a chance of accidentally letting that energy loose and not necessarily in the way the spell was supposed to.
Yes, agree with the concept of transferal of a scroll to a spellbook but disagree with the economy of the wizard having to pay for scribing the scroll.
I think the loss of the scroll ( a magic item) should be the equivalent exchange..
The cost is just in the materials to write it into his book. It has nothing to do with the scroll. The scrolls cost was spent when the spell was cast/scribed into it.
If you wreck your car the cost of a new one is not included in the original cost of the wrecked car.
And seriously the costs for the spells is very small compared to the use or reward of using the new spell.
Thanks for your thoughts, I am not trying to troll or anything.
I dont think the car accident analogy is a correct one.
What special inks do you think a necromancer would use to write in their spellbook, I would guess it is their blood or something made from cremains? Do they need to spend money for that? Are people buying spell ink from costco to create spellbooks? I always thought of spellbooks more like a wizards personal journal and each one should reflect that wizard. Some would be neat or others might look like an unstable persons manifesto.
If you were DM'ing a wizard and they leveled to 3 would you charge their pc to get the 2 new spells they get for that level?
Another necro, but I think it's reasonable since this is probably the best thread I've seen online which address many of the questions regarding Spell Scroll copying.
So, we have a spell scroll, infused with magic. Does it make narratively sense that a wizard can copy a Spell Scroll over several disjointed chunks of time? Can a wizard copy a Fireball Spell Scroll over 3 nights by doing 1 Arcana check + 2 hours the first night, and then just use 2 hours each following evening for the next 2 days?
Will the Spell Scroll survive this opening and closing of the project? And, narratively, what would make the Spell Scroll self-immolate when the last bit of scribing completes? Old magic?
It’s worth noting that the entire concept of writing a spell down in parts is shaky and largely based on “there’s no explicit rule saying we can’t” interpretations, which usually don’t hold up when it goes to SA. RAW simply says you need to spend 2 hours per spell, and in every other case of a class feature with a time investment that comes to mind, there’s no way to increment it; you need an uninterrupted block of time.
Regarding why spell scrolls are destroyed, the mechanical reason is probably just an extension of them being consumables; they’re intended to perform a single function and then cease. Lore-wise, I’d say it’s because a spell scroll is not a complete transcript of the spell formula; it’s a sort of mystic shorthand infused with the spell, allowing anyone with the proper background to attempt to cast it. Thus to learn the entirety of the spell to the point you can replicate it, you have to draw out the magic, consuming the scroll.
In earlier editions a Wizard could, in dire straights, use their spellbook as a scroll casting the spells out of the book. This process erased the spell from the book. As I understand it this is no longer possible in 5e but the rules are to some extent a left over from not cross checking between books fully. It is perhaps easiest to think of the scribing in the old way to fully understand the rules. To use a spell scroll you read the scroll drawing into yourself the magic and making the sounds and motions needed to draw the magical power into yourself before releasing the spell. This also wipes the spell from the scroll as you do so. Then you release the spell at the end casting it where you want it. N scribing you are doing almost the same thing . Learning from the instructions how to move and what to say as well as what components you need for casting the spell. Then you release it (gently) through the scribing process noting it down in your own notation in your spellbook. In either case you draw the spell from the scroll leaving it blank. In casting you release the spell, in scribing you note down how to draw the energy to create the spell while gently and slowly releasing the energies back into the world. In older editions you actually stored the spell but could use your own notations to review the form without drawing out the spell. In 5 e there is no stored spell in the spellbook so you can’t caste it from there in an emergency. Frankly I like the old way better.
Another necro, but I think it's reasonable since this is probably the best thread I've seen online which address many of the questions regarding Spell Scroll copying.
So, we have a spell scroll, infused with magic. Does it make narratively sense that a wizard can copy a Spell Scroll over several disjointed chunks of time? Can a wizard copy a Fireball Spell Scroll over 3 nights by doing 1 Arcana check + 2 hours the first night, and then just use 2 hours each following evening for the next 2 days?
Will the Spell Scroll survive this opening and closing of the project? And, narratively, what would make the Spell Scroll self-immolate when the last bit of scribing completes? Old magic?
As a 3rd-level spell, a scroll of fireball would only take 3 hours total to scribe. (I was wrong.🤷♂️) As a DM, I rule that yes, scrolls can be scribed over multiple periods of labor. It gives the Wizards something to do while the Fighters, Monks, and Warlocks are taking their necessary short rests, and cuts down on unnecessary downtime.
I would say you must write spells and scrolls in one single continuous period.All the energy of the spell must be gathered controlled and placed into the scroll at one time. Any break in this causes the energies to dissipate and the time and materials wasted. This is one of the reasons mages would lock themselves away to not be disturbed.
It keeps casters from writing them with the short 2 hour period that is not used during a long rest.
There is no unnecessary down time. Its hand waved away. Short and long rests are not down time.They are just rests.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
To me, I feel like the rule was written with one continuous process in mind. That being said, the rules don't look like they require it, and I don't see any harm in allowing that time and cost to be broken up across multiple increments. Seems needlessly complicated to me, but I guess I'd allow it.
Time is one of the exceptional abilities of a Scribe Wizard. You still have to pay the costs but the time is reduced, so it is helpful in these situations. Even with a magic quill...
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I'm well aware of the RAW. Your explanation of why the spell scroll is consumed when copied from is something you made up. The RAW gives no explanation or reasoning for the rule. And I disagree entirely with the premise. Which is why I said that IN MY GAMES (just to make that clear, since you missed it) I don't follow the RAW.
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When copying from a SPELLBOOK you just need to spend the time and materials. When copying from a scroll there is a chance that it will fail.
In spite of this thread being from 2018 and having been necro'ed twice (now for a third time) we still don't have any answer to what it takes to copy a Spell Scroll into your Spellbook.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
The answer is in the wizard feature in the bit about copying spells. Here it is, with highlights.
And from the Magic Item description of the Spell Scroll:
--
So if you found a scroll of Mirror Image, a 2nd level spell, it would require:
An Arcana check of DC 12.
4 hours.
100 gp.
The scroll is destroyed and you get to add the spell to your spellbook.
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I find this logic a bit odd (and yes I can appreciate that magic isn't necessarily logical).
Why would a scroll be destroyed if you are only copying/translating the data to a spellbook?
Does that mean a spellbook is a magic item and that it would be detected if a detect magic was cast on it? A magical scroll would and they are not a wizards spellbook.
If you are effectively transfering the knowledge of the "magical scroll" to a book (which should destroy the scroll) I think it is more reasonable to skip the cost of writing it in the book because you have used the scroll which would likely have a much higher cost). Otherwise I think you are creating an extra penalty on the wizard class.
Think of it this way'
A magicians book is an instruction set for gathering and using magical energy.
A spell scroll is magic energy already gathered and ready for release set into an scroll. If you copy it wrong you stand a chance of accidentally letting that energy loose and not necessarily in the way the spell was supposed to.
A magicians book is not bound energy.
Yes, agree with the concept of transferal of a scroll to a spellbook but disagree with the economy of the wizard having to pay for scribing the scroll.
I think the loss of the scroll ( a magic item) should be the equivalent exchange..
The cost is just in the materials to write it into his book. It has nothing to do with the scroll. The scrolls cost was spent when the spell was cast/scribed into it.
If you wreck your car the cost of a new one is not included in the original cost of the wrecked car.
And seriously the costs for the spells is very small compared to the use or reward of using the new spell.
Thanks for your thoughts, I am not trying to troll or anything.
I dont think the car accident analogy is a correct one.
What special inks do you think a necromancer would use to write in their spellbook, I would guess it is their blood or something made from cremains? Do they need to spend money for that? Are people buying spell ink from costco to create spellbooks? I always thought of spellbooks more like a wizards personal journal and each one should reflect that wizard. Some would be neat or others might look like an unstable persons manifesto.
If you were DM'ing a wizard and they leveled to 3 would you charge their pc to get the 2 new spells they get for that level?
I would charge them and make them spend the time needed for everything.
But as a DM I always make sure the PC's have access to cash and research facilities.
Thanks
Another necro, but I think it's reasonable since this is probably the best thread I've seen online which address many of the questions regarding Spell Scroll copying.
So, we have a spell scroll, infused with magic. Does it make narratively sense that a wizard can copy a Spell Scroll over several disjointed chunks of time? Can a wizard copy a Fireball Spell Scroll over 3 nights by doing 1 Arcana check + 2 hours the first night, and then just use 2 hours each following evening for the next 2 days?
Will the Spell Scroll survive this opening and closing of the project? And, narratively, what would make the Spell Scroll self-immolate when the last bit of scribing completes? Old magic?
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
It’s worth noting that the entire concept of writing a spell down in parts is shaky and largely based on “there’s no explicit rule saying we can’t” interpretations, which usually don’t hold up when it goes to SA. RAW simply says you need to spend 2 hours per spell, and in every other case of a class feature with a time investment that comes to mind, there’s no way to increment it; you need an uninterrupted block of time.
Regarding why spell scrolls are destroyed, the mechanical reason is probably just an extension of them being consumables; they’re intended to perform a single function and then cease. Lore-wise, I’d say it’s because a spell scroll is not a complete transcript of the spell formula; it’s a sort of mystic shorthand infused with the spell, allowing anyone with the proper background to attempt to cast it. Thus to learn the entirety of the spell to the point you can replicate it, you have to draw out the magic, consuming the scroll.
In earlier editions a Wizard could, in dire straights, use their spellbook as a scroll casting the spells out of the book. This process erased the spell from the book. As I understand it this is no longer possible in 5e but the rules are to some extent a left over from not cross checking between books fully. It is perhaps easiest to think of the scribing in the old way to fully understand the rules. To use a spell scroll you read the scroll drawing into yourself the magic and making the sounds and motions needed to draw the magical power into yourself before releasing the spell. This also wipes the spell from the scroll as you do so. Then you release the spell at the end casting it where you want it. N scribing you are doing almost the same thing . Learning from the instructions how to move and what to say as well as what components you need for casting the spell. Then you release it (gently) through the scribing process noting it down in your own notation in your spellbook. In either case you draw the spell from the scroll leaving it blank. In casting you release the spell, in scribing you note down how to draw the energy to create the spell while gently and slowly releasing the energies back into the world. In older editions you actually stored the spell but could use your own notations to review the form without drawing out the spell. In 5 e there is no stored spell in the spellbook so you can’t caste it from there in an emergency.
Frankly I like the old way better.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
As a 3rd-level spell, a scroll of fireball would only take 3 hours total to scribe.(I was wrong.🤷♂️) As a DM, I rule that yes, scrolls can be scribed over multiple periods of labor. It gives the Wizards something to do while the Fighters, Monks, and Warlocks are taking their necessary short rests, and cuts down on unnecessary downtime.DDB Buyers' Guide
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I would say you must write spells and scrolls in one single continuous period.All the energy of the spell must be gathered controlled and placed into the scroll at one time. Any break in this causes the energies to dissipate and the time and materials wasted. This is one of the reasons mages would lock themselves away to not be disturbed.
It keeps casters from writing them with the short 2 hour period that is not used during a long rest.
There is no unnecessary down time. Its hand waved away. Short and long rests are not down time.They are just rests.
To me, I feel like the rule was written with one continuous process in mind. That being said, the rules don't look like they require it, and I don't see any harm in allowing that time and cost to be broken up across multiple increments. Seems needlessly complicated to me, but I guess I'd allow it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It's of course fine to house rule the risk of loss from scrolls away, but I think the risk is for balance in terms of:
1) wizards adding spells to their book permanently is an amazing class power which maybe needs a few risks as limiting factors
2) the wide availability of scrolls rather than full grimoires, and their lower cost.
Time is one of the exceptional abilities of a Scribe Wizard. You still have to pay the costs but the time is reduced, so it is helpful in these situations. Even with a magic quill...