A couple of question here to see how the community interpret the following rule of Wild Shape:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Let's assume I am play a Circle of the Land Druid, level 20, and I choose to transform into a Giant spider:
1) For the attacks and skills, do you use your proficiency bonus or the beast's?
2) It is my understanding that Giant spiders have Expertise (kind of) on Stealth checks. Do you retain this expertise, if you are using the character proficiency bonus?
So.. will this be baked into the future character sheet? So as a druid i can just add Beasts and it will auto-magically figure out the best stats based on my stats and the beast's stats?
Please say yes :)
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Monster Manual Page 8: "For instance, a monster might have a larger-than-expected bonus (usually double its proficiency bonus) to account for its heightened expertise."
When a level 20 druid with a dex of 14 and no proficiency in stealth wild shapes into a giant octopus, is his bonus to stealth checks +5, +7, or +13? Is his to hit bonus for his tentacles action +5 or +9?
I would assume his stealth bonus to be +5, but the new character sheet feature makes it a +7. But if a wild shaped druid uses it's own proficiency bonus, why does the tentacle action still use the giant octopus's proficiency bonus?
Now assume the druid is proficient in Acrobatics making his bonus a +8. If he wild shapes into a giant octopus again, is his acrobatics bonus +3, +7, or +8?
When a level 20 druid with a dex of 14 and no proficiency in stealth wild shapes into a giant octopus, is his bonus to stealth checks +5, +7, or +13? Is his to hit bonus for his tentacles action +5 or +9?
I would assume his stealth bonus to be +5, but the new character sheet feature makes it a +7. But if a wild shaped druid uses it's own proficiency bonus, why does the tentacle action still use the giant octopus's proficiency bonus?
Now assume the druid is proficient in Acrobatics making his bonus a +8. If he wild shapes into a giant octopus again, is his acrobatics bonus +3, +7, or +8?
If the druid is not proficient in the skill or natural weapons of the beast, you should use the modifier as written in the beast's stats block.
Ok, after some searching, I must stand corrected. The +7 is correct. Here is the explanation:
When wildshaping, you use the beast's modifiers as the general rule, but you do gain the beasts's proficiencies for skills and saving throws (not natural weapons). So, at level 20 you have a +6 proficiency bonus, +1 from DEX, makes +7.
I gain the beast's skill and saving throw proficiency (I always gain normal proficiency even if the beast has a more complicated bonus calculation) and then replace my game statistics with the beast's statistics including the proficiency bonus, but I keep my proficiency bonus for skills and saving throws unless the beast's bonus is higher.
I gain the beast's skill and saving throw proficiency (I always gain normal proficiency even if the beast has a more complicated bonus calculation) and then replace my game statistics with the beast's statistics including the proficiency bonus, but I keep my proficiency bonus for skills and saving throws unless the beast's bonus is higher.
I've long thought about it. They should just make a separate compendium of wild shape stat blocks.
I'm not sure why everyone is mentioning demons and monstrosities in a question about druids.
You dont need to make a new stat block for every monster, only every beast (less than 20% of all monsters)
My druid has been hard-nerfed by stat blocks because the dm insists that at 17h lv, his cave bear is only a+7 to hit which significantly worse than what my proficiency would be. As in bad enough that wildshape is useless at our level. Yes cave bear is old, but would actually still be useful in situations where turning into an elemental would be problematic. Even giant crocodile can't hit crap with its own bonuses
So the bonus that the dndbeyond character sheet calculates is not correct as by the rules as intended?
correct. They're incredibly wrong
What is your proof to back up that claim? When you add a Wildshape form to a Druid's DDB character sheet, it automatically replaces the beast's stats where applicable.
And if you're referring to the beast's attacks (Claw, Bite, etc), Druids do not have proficiency with the natural weapons of a beast, so you do not get to swap the beast's proficiency bonus for yours. That is working as intended.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
So the bonus that the dndbeyond character sheet calculates is not correct as by the rules as intended?
correct. They're incredibly wrong
What is your proof to back up that claim? When you add a Wildshape form to a Druid's DDB character sheet, it automatically replaces the beast's stats where applicable.
And if you're referring to the beast's attacks (Claw, Bite, etc), Druids do not have proficiency with the natural weapons of a beast, so you do not get to swap the beast's proficiency bonus for yours. That is working as intended.
Without that, wildshape stops being viable when your proficiency becomes +3. Even cr3 and above have only +2, which means it is entirely irrelevant and inherently weaker than any other class feature to be used in melee after lv 5th/6th lv. Even at 10th, elementals can't hit anything half as well as any other class, casters included.
According to what are you saying it doesn't? Why would a druid not be proficient in its own class feature? Everyone knows how to bite or slap/punch. Are you saying that all weaponless attacks should be done without proficiency bonus unless you're a monk?
So the bonus that the dndbeyond character sheet calculates is not correct as by the rules as intended?
correct. They're incredibly wrong
It funny how you ignore the reply from the moderator disagree with you. This was already answered above:
Ok, after some searching, I must stand corrected. The +7 is correct. Here is the explanation:
When wildshaping, you use the beast's modifiers as the general rule, but you do gain the beasts's proficiencies for skills and saving throws (not natural weapons). So, at level 20 you have a +6 proficiency bonus, +1 from DEX, makes +7.
Same goes for perception.
To summarize the process:
I gain the beast's skill and saving throw proficiency (I always gain normal proficiency even if the beast has a more complicated bonus calculation) and then replace my game statistics with the beast's statistics including the proficiency bonus, but I keep my proficiency bonus for skills and saving throws unless the beast's bonus is higher.
So the bonus that the dndbeyond character sheet calculates is not correct as by the rules as intended?
correct. They're incredibly wrong
It funny how you ignore the reply from the moderator disagree with you. This was already answered above:
Ok, after some searching, I must stand corrected. The +7 is correct. Here is the explanation:
When wildshaping, you use the beast's modifiers as the general rule, but you do gain the beasts's proficiencies for skills and saving throws (not natural weapons). So, at level 20 you have a +6 proficiency bonus, +1 from DEX, makes +7.
Same goes for perception.
To summarize the process:
I gain the beast's skill and saving throw proficiency (I always gain normal proficiency even if the beast has a more complicated bonus calculation) and then replace my game statistics with the beast's statistics including the proficiency bonus, but I keep my proficiency bonus for skills and saving throws unless the beast's bonus is higher.
Correct.
The math doesn't check out. A cave bear gets a +7 to hit at lv 6, and stays +7 at 20th lv. It should be +8 at 6th lv, and +11 at 17th and above. It doesn't scale, even though the text indicates you should indeed add your prof in place of the stat blocks (because your bonus is better, and you use the better stat, by text)
So the bonus that the dndbeyond character sheet calculates is not correct as by the rules as intended?
correct. They're incredibly wrong
It funny how you ignore the reply from the moderator disagree with you. This was already answered above:
Ok, after some searching, I must stand corrected. The +7 is correct. Here is the explanation:
When wildshaping, you use the beast's modifiers as the general rule, but you do gain the beasts's proficiencies for skills and saving throws (not natural weapons). So, at level 20 you have a +6 proficiency bonus, +1 from DEX, makes +7.
Same goes for perception.
To summarize the process:
I gain the beast's skill and saving throw proficiency (I always gain normal proficiency even if the beast has a more complicated bonus calculation) and then replace my game statistics with the beast's statistics including the proficiency bonus, but I keep my proficiency bonus for skills and saving throws unless the beast's bonus is higher.
Correct.
The math doesn't check out. A cave bear gets a +7 to hit at lv 6, and stays +7 at 20th lv. It should be +8 at 6th lv, and +11 at 17th and above. It doesn't scale, even though the text indicates you should indeed add your prof in place of the stat blocks (because your bonus is better, and you use the better stat, by text)
No, you do not get your proficiency-bonus on attacks.
Rules text: "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours."
Druids do not retain any weapon proficiencies! Only skills and saving throws.
So, Druids do not add their own proficiency bonus instead of the beast's bonus to attacks.
So the bonus that the dndbeyond character sheet calculates is not correct as by the rules as intended?
correct. They're incredibly wrong
What is your proof to back up that claim? When you add a Wildshape form to a Druid's DDB character sheet, it automatically replaces the beast's stats where applicable.
And if you're referring to the beast's attacks (Claw, Bite, etc), Druids do not have proficiency with the natural weapons of a beast, so you do not get to swap the beast's proficiency bonus for yours. That is working as intended.
Without that, wildshape stops being viable when your proficiency becomes +3. Even cr3 and above have only +2, which means it is entirely irrelevant and inherently weaker than any other class feature to be used in melee after lv 5th/6th lv. Even at 10th, elementals can't hit anything half as well as any other class, casters included.
According to what are you saying it doesn't? Why would a druid not be proficient in its own class feature? Everyone knows how to bite or slap/punch. Are you saying that all weaponless attacks should be done without proficiency bonus unless you're a monk?
Actually, yes. Wildshape does stop being viable. if you thought otherwise, you were wrong.
As everyone has pointed out, there is no language in wildshape that implies that you are to use anything but the beast's statblock for actions that are entirely within the beast's statblock.
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Monster Manual Page 8: "For instance, a monster might have a larger-than-expected bonus (usually double its proficiency bonus) to account for its heightened expertise."
When a level 20 druid with a dex of 14 and no proficiency in stealth wild shapes into a giant octopus, is his bonus to stealth checks +5, +7, or +13? Is his to hit bonus for his tentacles action +5 or +9?
I would assume his stealth bonus to be +5, but the new character sheet feature makes it a +7. But if a wild shaped druid uses it's own proficiency bonus, why does the tentacle action still use the giant octopus's proficiency bonus?
Now assume the druid is proficient in Acrobatics making his bonus a +8. If he wild shapes into a giant octopus again, is his acrobatics bonus +3, +7, or +8?
If the druid is not proficient in the skill or natural weapons of the beast, you should use the modifier as written in the beast's stats block.
So the bonus that the dndbeyond character sheet calculates is not correct as by the rules as intended?
I just tested the Giant Octopus Wild Shape with a druid of mine. It shows +5 on Stealth, as per the rule.
Can you post here the URL of your sheet, as I can take a look?
ddb.ac/characters/6865131/rGCMap
SkillsAcrobatics +7, Stealth +7, Perception +6
Ok, after some searching, I must stand corrected. The +7 is correct. Here is the explanation:
When wildshaping, you use the beast's modifiers as the general rule, but you do gain the beasts's proficiencies for skills and saving throws (not natural weapons). So, at level 20 you have a +6 proficiency bonus, +1 from DEX, makes +7.
Same goes for perception.
To summarize the process:
I gain the beast's skill and saving throw proficiency (I always gain normal proficiency even if the beast has a more complicated bonus calculation) and then replace my game statistics with the beast's statistics including the proficiency bonus, but I keep my proficiency bonus for skills and saving throws unless the beast's bonus is higher.
Correct.
Thanks for the clarification :)
I've long thought about it. They should just make a separate compendium of wild shape stat blocks.
I'm not sure why everyone is mentioning demons and monstrosities in a question about druids.
You dont need to make a new stat block for every monster, only every beast (less than 20% of all monsters)
My druid has been hard-nerfed by stat blocks because the dm insists that at 17h lv, his cave bear is only a+7 to hit which significantly worse than what my proficiency would be. As in bad enough that wildshape is useless at our level. Yes cave bear is old, but would actually still be useful in situations where turning into an elemental would be problematic. Even giant crocodile can't hit crap with its own bonuses
correct. They're incredibly wrong
What is your proof to back up that claim? When you add a Wildshape form to a Druid's DDB character sheet, it automatically replaces the beast's stats where applicable.
And if you're referring to the beast's attacks (Claw, Bite, etc), Druids do not have proficiency with the natural weapons of a beast, so you do not get to swap the beast's proficiency bonus for yours. That is working as intended.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Without that, wildshape stops being viable when your proficiency becomes +3. Even cr3 and above have only +2, which means it is entirely irrelevant and inherently weaker than any other class feature to be used in melee after lv 5th/6th lv. Even at 10th, elementals can't hit anything half as well as any other class, casters included.
According to what are you saying it doesn't? Why would a druid not be proficient in its own class feature? Everyone knows how to bite or slap/punch. Are you saying that all weaponless attacks should be done without proficiency bonus unless you're a monk?
It funny how you ignore the reply from the moderator disagree with you. This was already answered above:
The math doesn't check out. A cave bear gets a +7 to hit at lv 6, and stays +7 at 20th lv. It should be +8 at 6th lv, and +11 at 17th and above. It doesn't scale, even though the text indicates you should indeed add your prof in place of the stat blocks (because your bonus is better, and you use the better stat, by text)
No, you do not get your proficiency-bonus on attacks.
Rules text: "You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours."
Druids do not retain any weapon proficiencies! Only skills and saving throws.
So, Druids do not add their own proficiency bonus instead of the beast's bonus to attacks.
This works only for skills and saving throws.
Actually, yes. Wildshape does stop being viable. if you thought otherwise, you were wrong.
As everyone has pointed out, there is no language in wildshape that implies that you are to use anything but the beast's statblock for actions that are entirely within the beast's statblock.