A couple of question here to see how the community interpret the following rule of Wild Shape:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Let's assume I am play a Circle of the Land Druid, level 20, and I choose to transform into a Giant spider:
1) For the attacks and skills, do you use your proficiency bonus or the beast's?
2) It is my understanding that Giant spiders have Expertise (kind of) on Stealth checks. Do you retain this expertise, if you are using the character proficiency bonus?
I interpret the 2nd rule similar similar to how armor is calculated: take the best.
a Giant Spider has a Stealth of +7. (we assume it's +2 (Prof) * 2 (Expertise) + 3 (Dex)
My Dex 14 level 2 Druid who is trained in Stealth has a +4. (+2 (Prof) + 2 (Dex))
at level 20 the same druid is trained in Stealth with a +8. (+6 (Prof) + 2 (Dex))
I would calculate the Giant Spider as either:
+7. (+2 (Prof) * 2 (Expertise) + 3 (Dex))
OR
+7. (+6 (Prof) + 3 (Dex))
Mostly because this seems like the least complicated way. Back in the old days you can to recalculte the beast's stat based on your level and bla bla bla... now it seems to be "take the best and keep is simple". While it's sad that a Giant Spider in the hands of a level 2 Moon-Druid is the same as a Giant Spider in the hands of a level 20 Moon Druid.... making it more complicated makes it more complicated. Of course the level 18 Druid can cast spells as a Giant Spider, so I guess it's not "the same thing" :P
Not sure what you mean by having expertise? The giant spider has a +7 to stealth, so seems pretty clear - check the stealth of the druid and take the higher value of the two?
Not sure what you mean by having expertise? The giant spider has a +7 to stealth, so seems pretty clear - check the stealth of the druid and take the higher value of the two?
It was just this: since the spider doubles its proficiency bonus for the Stealth check, I wondered if you do so when you have a higher proficiency bonus. But it seems not the way to go.
I believe that the reason that the rules avoid giving monsters traits such as "expertise" or similar terminology is in an attempt to maintain this simplicity of reading.
Imagine for a moment you had no idea of the rules. Nothing in either the monster's stats nor in Wild Shape makes reference of "expertise". The resolution is simple: If the monster has proficiency in something (denoted as having the trait explicitly mentioned, such as the example's "Stealth: +7", and your total bonus is less than it, you use the monster's bonus (unmodified by any traits you have (spells and similar are a different matter)). In effect: after all changes, if the monster is better than you at something, you use its natural skills.
That is to say... I believe you're overthinking it. :p
I wish the NPC sheets where more clear about how stuff is calculated . but it depends on the DM . my DM ruled that you are proficient with all the stuff that your animal proficient with . so talk to your DM .
I wish the NPC sheets where more clear about how stuff is calculated . but it depends on the DM . my DM ruled that you are proficient with all the stuff that your animal proficient with . so talk to your DM .
The problem is that stat blocks need to be concise (because the DM's going to use a lot of different creatures every session), and they don't have to follow the rules (because they generally cease to exist after 1 encounter). Like Onyx mentioned, a DM just needs to know what number to add to the roll.
Take a look at the attack bonus on a Carrion Crawler's tentacles; its proficiency bonus is +2 and its STR mod is +2, but its attack bonus is +7. There's no particular reason for it other than the designers wanting them to be exceptionally accurate with their tentacles.
its not asking much to add a proficiency bonus next to the health and between brackets says how the number is calculated .
Giant Spider Large Beast 26(4d10 + 4) AC 14(Natural Armor) Proficiency +2 Stealth +7 (Expert+Dex) \\ or \\ Stealth +7 (2* Proficiency + Dex) .... Bite.Melee Weapon Attack: +5 (Prof + Dex) to hit, ... target must make a DC 11 (8 + Prof + Con) Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) ..... Web (Recharge 5–6).Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 (Prof + Dex) .... can make a DC 12 (10 + Str) Strength check, bursting the webbing .....
something like that Clear and easy . make the player who turn into stuff or have a companion knows whats up . make the DM knows whats up and maybe modifying some stuff easier if they want to .
I believe the DMG mentions what the proficiency bonus is for monsters of a certain CR. The majority if not all monsters follow this. The ones that don't, most likely have expertise.
But you never need to know this information in play. It is always irrelevant.
its not asking much to add a proficiency bonus next to the health and between brackets says how the number is calculated .
Giant Spider Large Beast 26 (4d10 + 4) AC 14 (Natural Armor) Proficiency +2 Stealth +7 (Expert+Dex) \\ or \\ Stealth +7 (2* Proficiency + Dex) .... Bite.Melee Weapon Attack: +5 (Prof + Dex) to hit, ... target must make a DC 11 (8 + Prof + Con) Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) ..... Web (Recharge 5–6).Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 (Prof + Dex) .... can make a DC 12 (10 + Str) Strength check, bursting the webbing .....
something like that Clear and easy . make the player who turn into stuff or have a companion knows whats up . make the DM knows whats up and maybe modifying some stuff easier if they want to .
That is fine until you get to a monster like the Carrion Crawler that was mentioned before. 14 Strength (+2), 13 Dexterity (+1), CR 2 (+2 proficiency), Tentacles attack = +8 to hit. Where is the other +4 coming from? I'm pretty sure there's no easy way to explain that in a parentheses bracket.
Furthermore, imagine a creature like a Barbed Devil Armor Class 15 (natural armor) Hit Points 110 (13d8 + 52) Speed 30 ft. Proficiency Bonus +3
There are now 4 extra lines added to an already stacked stat block. Now imagine that for EVERY SINGLE monster in the monster manual, and you can see how that would begin to add up. So, no, it's not hard to do it. But it's not necessary (especially in the case of the proficiency bonus, since it is based on CR, as NightsLastHero mentions below).
I believe the DMG mentions what the proficiency bonus is for monsters of a certain CR. The majority if not all monsters follow this. The ones that don't, most likely have expertise.
But you never need to know this information in play. It is always irrelevant.
He's right that you never need to know this information, because as a DM, you have enough things to worry about, that understanding WHY the Barbed Devil has a +8 in Perception isn't really that important. You just know what you need to add to the perception roll to notice the PCs while they are hiding.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Not really because there is ALOT of NPCs that have much free spaces in their sheet . and hey .... nobody is against extra pages lol XD . and they can always shorten this out making P stand for Proficiency and E stand for Expertise . saving throws may not need the expansion unless it has +X to all its saving throws or something like that should be writing in the side . maybe only write the expansion only when its different that (stat + P)
and see you are confused about the Carrion Crawler attack because its not clear if its just said (4+str+p) or (2+str+P+E) then it wouldn't make a fuss . [creature] Saber tooth tiger [/creature] his attacks are +1 damage more that its roll . why ??? we dont know . [creature] elephant [/creature] has a super weird way to calculate charge DC that nobody knows whats the idea !!!!
and some extra lines wont make much in a book most of its free space used for drawing any way !!!
The main counter point to your request is that while you might enjoy knowing how certain things were calculated, it is never required to actually play the game. You don't need to know that.
And sometimes a monster has a "just because" reason. Typically in the game if you lower AC the monsters get more HP. Sometimes calculations are simply to make a unique monster.
Not really because there is ALOT of NPCs that have much free spaces in their sheet . and hey .... nobody is against extra pages lol XD . and they can always shorten this out making P stand for Proficiency and E stand for Expertise . saving throws may not need the expansion unless it has +X to all its saving throws or something like that should be writing in the side . maybe only write the expansion only when its different that (stat + P)
and see you are confused about the Carrion Crawler attack because its not clear if its just said (4+str+p) or (2+str+P+E) then it wouldn't make a fuss . [creature] Saber tooth tiger [/creature] his attacks are +1 damage more that its roll . why ??? we dont know . [creature] elephant [/creature] has a super weird way to calculate charge DC that nobody knows whats the idea !!!!
and some extra lines wont make much in a book most of its free space used for drawing any way !!!
1) Publishers are against extra pages. They edit things that are unneeded.
2) I'm not confused by it, because I realize it doesn't matter. I just assume they wanted it to be more accurate with its tentacle attacks, since there's no such thing as expertise with attacks (and even if you double its proficiency, that's STILL only +6, so you'd have to explain where the extra +2 comes from in the parentheses).
3) The "free space" for art is actually chosen during editing. The art isn't exactly superfluous.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
To add to that, you have to remember that you can't just add a page in a book, you have to add a certain number of pages which are then bound together. Usually this is 32 pages, though smaller pages are possible as well as more. In fact if you look at the page counts of all the D&D adventure books, they all come to around 256 (going by amazons list of pages). So adding the non-useful information is going to make a book significantly longer OR cause fewer monster entries. Most likely the number of monster entries would be reduced because WotC isn't likely to add to the page count.
I dont know what you are looking at guys but the Monster manual has alot of free spaces . and the monster NPC has a lot of spaces and adding 2 lines on like 33% of the monsters wont add a single extra page because simply the NPC sheet will get tallerbut not bigger than the page . is there Any NPC sheet that takes the FULL page ??? Is there ?
A couple of question here to see how the community interpret the following rule of Wild Shape:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Let's assume I am play a Circle of the Land Druid, level 20, and I choose to transform into a Giant spider:
1) For the attacks and skills, do you use your proficiency bonus or the beast's?
2) It is my understanding that Giant spiders have Expertise (kind of) on Stealth checks. Do you retain this expertise, if you are using the character proficiency bonus?
Well, the answer to the first question is here:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/
Curious about the second, though.
Filecat,
I interpret the 2nd rule similar similar to how armor is calculated: take the best.
a Giant Spider has a Stealth of +7. (we assume it's +2 (Prof) * 2 (Expertise) + 3 (Dex)
My Dex 14 level 2 Druid who is trained in Stealth has a +4. (+2 (Prof) + 2 (Dex))
at level 20 the same druid is trained in Stealth with a +8. (+6 (Prof) + 2 (Dex))
I would calculate the Giant Spider as either:
+7. (+2 (Prof) * 2 (Expertise) + 3 (Dex))
OR
+7. (+6 (Prof) + 3 (Dex))
Mostly because this seems like the least complicated way. Back in the old days you can to recalculte the beast's stat based on your level and bla bla bla... now it seems to be "take the best and keep is simple". While it's sad that a Giant Spider in the hands of a level 2 Moon-Druid is the same as a Giant Spider in the hands of a level 20 Moon Druid.... making it more complicated makes it more complicated. Of course the level 18 Druid can cast spells as a Giant Spider, so I guess it's not "the same thing" :P
Not sure what you mean by having expertise? The giant spider has a +7 to stealth, so seems pretty clear - check the stealth of the druid and take the higher value of the two?
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I agree. That seems the wisest way to go.
Alotugh, when you calculate the character's Stealth modifier you should use the Beast's DEX modifier.
So for the case of 20 lvl druid: Stealth modifier = +6 (druid's proficiency) + 3 (Spider DEX modifier) = +9
So I 'd say you use +9 instead of +7 (where +7 is the spider's "natural" Stealth modifier).
Yup and correct about using the beast's dex modifier.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I believe that the reason that the rules avoid giving monsters traits such as "expertise" or similar terminology is in an attempt to maintain this simplicity of reading.
Imagine for a moment you had no idea of the rules. Nothing in either the monster's stats nor in Wild Shape makes reference of "expertise". The resolution is simple: If the monster has proficiency in something (denoted as having the trait explicitly mentioned, such as the example's "Stealth: +7", and your total bonus is less than it, you use the monster's bonus (unmodified by any traits you have (spells and similar are a different matter)). In effect: after all changes, if the monster is better than you at something, you use its natural skills.
That is to say... I believe you're overthinking it. :p
Yeah you are right. Professional deformation.
Anyway, I can't help posting this:
I wish the NPC sheets where more clear about how stuff is calculated .
but it depends on the DM . my DM ruled that you are proficient with all the stuff that your animal proficient with .
so talk to your DM .
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
its not asking much to add a proficiency bonus next to the health
and between brackets says how the number is calculated .
Giant Spider
Large Beast
26 (4d10 + 4) AC 14 (Natural Armor) Proficiency +2
Stealth +7 (Expert+Dex) \\ or \\ Stealth +7 (2* Proficiency + Dex)
....
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 (Prof + Dex) to hit, ... target must make a DC 11 (8 + Prof + Con) Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) .....
Web (Recharge 5–6). Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 (Prof + Dex) .... can make a DC 12 (10 + Str) Strength check, bursting the webbing .....
something like that Clear and easy .
make the player who turn into stuff or have a companion knows whats up .
make the DM knows whats up and maybe modifying some stuff easier if they want to .
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
I believe the DMG mentions what the proficiency bonus is for monsters of a certain CR. The majority if not all monsters follow this. The ones that don't, most likely have expertise.
But you never need to know this information in play. It is always irrelevant.
Furthermore, imagine a creature like a Barbed Devil
Armor Class 15 (natural armor)
Hit Points 110 (13d8 + 52)
Speed 30 ft.
Proficiency Bonus +3
Saving Throws. Str +6 (Str + Prof), Con +7 (Con + Prof),
Wis +5 (Wis + Prof), Cha +5 (Cha + Prof)
Skills. Deception +5 (Cha + Prof), Insight +5 (Int + Prof),
Perception +8 (Wis + Prof + Expertise)
Damage Resistances. cold; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing
from nonmagical weapons that aren't silvered
Damage Immunities. fire, poison
Condition Immunities. poisoned
Senses. darkvision 120 ft., passive Perception 18 (10 + Wis +
Prof + Expertise)
Languages. Infernal, telepathy 120 ft.
Challenge 5 (1,800 XP)
There are now 4 extra lines added to an already stacked stat block. Now imagine that for EVERY SINGLE monster in the monster manual, and you can see how that would begin to add up. So, no, it's not hard to do it. But it's not necessary (especially in the case of the proficiency bonus, since it is based on CR, as NightsLastHero mentions below).
He's right that you never need to know this information, because as a DM, you have enough things to worry about, that understanding WHY the Barbed Devil has a +8 in Perception isn't really that important. You just know what you need to add to the perception roll to notice the PCs while they are hiding.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Not really because there is ALOT of NPCs that have much free spaces in their sheet .
and hey .... nobody is against extra pages lol XD . and they can always shorten this out making P stand for Proficiency and E stand for Expertise .
saving throws may not need the expansion unless it has +X to all its saving throws or something like that should be writing in the side .
maybe only write the expansion only when its different that (stat + P)
and see you are confused about the Carrion Crawler attack because its not clear if its just said (4+str+p) or (2+str+P+E) then it wouldn't make a fuss .
[creature] Saber tooth tiger [/creature] his attacks are +1 damage more that its roll . why ??? we dont know .
[creature] elephant [/creature] has a super weird way to calculate charge DC that nobody knows whats the idea !!!!
and some extra lines wont make much in a book most of its free space used for drawing any way !!!
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
The main counter point to your request is that while you might enjoy knowing how certain things were calculated, it is never required to actually play the game. You don't need to know that.
And sometimes a monster has a "just because" reason. Typically in the game if you lower AC the monsters get more HP. Sometimes calculations are simply to make a unique monster.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
To add to that, you have to remember that you can't just add a page in a book, you have to add a certain number of pages which are then bound together. Usually this is 32 pages, though smaller pages are possible as well as more. In fact if you look at the page counts of all the D&D adventure books, they all come to around 256 (going by amazons list of pages). So adding the non-useful information is going to make a book significantly longer OR cause fewer monster entries. Most likely the number of monster entries would be reduced because WotC isn't likely to add to the page count.
I dont know what you are looking at guys but the Monster manual has alot of free spaces . and the monster NPC has a lot of spaces and adding 2 lines on like 33% of the monsters wont add a single extra page because simply the NPC sheet will get tallerbut not bigger than the page .
is there Any NPC sheet that takes the FULL page ??? Is there ?
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).