If you Wild Shape into a Bear at level 6, you become a Bear with all his physical stats. If you Wild shape into the same Bear at level 20, you become that same Bear with all his physical stats. That doesn't mean you suddenly become Super Bear just because your character level is 20, you're still just a Bear. RAWR n stuff
If you Wild Shape into a Bear at level 6, you become a Bear with all his physical stats. If you Wild shape into the same Bear at level 20, you become that same Bear with all his physical stats. That doesn't mean you suddenly become Super Bear just because your character level is 20, you're still just a Bear. RAWR n stuff
A Bear rolling a Flaming Sphere around while throwing lightning. :p
The only things that suffers at high level are the basic attacks. There's nothing non-viable about a free HP bar, access to multiple movement speeds, and the ability to cast spells while transformed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
but thats not why we choose moon druid to be just a sack of free HP ... I would love to hit as good as the fighter who has magic weapon at this m=point that far boost thier damage output. changing proficiency to mach ours wont be the end of the world its balanced enough.
But - You shouldn't becuase if we make it so all classes can "hit as good as a fighter with a magic weapon" what is the point of diversity. The trade off for having wild shapes is literally the ability to have more HP than most other classes. There needs to be trade offs. If you kept a single HP pool I'd agree that the druid would need to have proficiency with the beasts weapons to up their damage and hit. But since they get spells, extra HP, and the abilities of what they turn into, being equal in the ability to hit as a standard bear and not better is the trade off.
but the extra HP doesn't mean much because of the lower AC believe me that HP get burned up fast. that wild shape doesnt get augmented much because of the lack of magical item support. like letterly the only magic Items that boost natural attack is one item in the oldest published adventure. the other items cant really equip.
But - You shouldn't becuase if we make it so all classes can "hit as good as a fighter with a magic weapon" what is the point of diversity. The trade off for having wild shapes is literally the ability to have more HP than most other classes. There needs to be trade offs. If you kept a single HP pool I'd agree that the druid would need to have proficiency with the beasts weapons to up their damage and hit. But since they get spells, extra HP, and the abilities of what they turn into, being equal in the ability to hit as a standard bear and not better is the trade off.
OK so fighter is a bad callout. You dont hit as well as even another druid using sheleighly. Using giant scorpion is worse (theirs is +4) there is no incentive to use ANY whildshape outside of mobility after lv 6, arguably sooner. Baring in mind that any druid can use theirs for mobility. Even elemental forms are mostly good for mobility.
The 5e moon druid is intended to supplant 3.5 feats that maximize wldshape. There is nothing but base kit beasts (and almost none after lv 6) it feels like half a kit. There is literally no reason to wildshape after 14th level, if the goal is to attack (which moon druid is implied to want to do). You'll ALWAYS be doing more damage with cantrips than EVER attacking in any wildshape form. Polymorph is ALWAYS a better option than wildshape because polymorph allows up to your level in cr.
As someone who actually plays druid, I am here to tell you how far 42 hp (cave bear) doesn't go. At 9th lv, it is far and away better to cast a concentration spell and cantrip enemies. Always. There is never a time it is better to wildshape, unless you have specific need of a movement type AND won't be a target (which you will). At 10th, the same is true. Even 2 slam attacks aren't enough to make up for your paltry to-hit AND large target you become.
"Buy you're a tank if you're a target" only if there's no aoe AND no ranged with multiple attacks. And furthermore, if you're big and impotent, you're easy to ignore.
"But your 42 hp is damage you dont take" thats true, but it isn't free, which is how people ask. It had 2 very limited charges, AND takes action economy to do (which could be used for being better in combat) and that action locks you out of other, more effective options (literally anything else that involves hands, speaking, casting, items). Your call lightning gets dispelled or you lose concentration from your "EnDlEsS ach-peeeeees" and now you've used 2 bonus actions, and 2 actions to cast a second spell. That's an insane cost for one failed roll.
Moon druid is NOT tankier than anyone else, and is also significantly worse than most, even with their spellcasting. Their spell list is largely concentration spells, with surprisingly limited non concentration options. Even rogues are tankier than druids. More importantly, the moon druid is not better at control OR damage than any other subclass.
I've run 3 moon druids to 12+ and a 3rd Mountain (land) druid to 8, and so far, literally everything my moons were good for, the land druid does better.
AND THEN and then thers almost no magic item support. (Thers only 3 item IN THE GAME that effect wildshape, and 2 those is a relic items in Mystic Oddessy of Theros)
Druids are strong casters with plenty of excellent spell options, and implying that their spell list is in someway subpar shows a misunderstanding of casters. It sounds to me like you picked a subclass based on its play at level 2 and now 12 levels later are disappointed that your better than everyone else class turned into only an above average class.
No need to get angry about all that. Lets return to the question at hand. Each creature's Wildshape doesn't need to scale because Wildshape CRs scale as the druid gains levels. No text in the feature says anything about scaling with the druid's level except for certain skills and saving throws.
It sounds to me like you picked a subclass based on its play at level 2 and now 12 levels later are disappointed that your better than everyone else class turned into only an above average class.
I don't want to be betterv than everyone. I want to be what the subclass is designed to be: focused on shifting. Druids are flat out not better in 5e than any other caster, which is good. You cannot look at 20th lv features ( there are no beastscafter 15th lv, and from lv 6 to lv 18 there are 7 beasts) and say how op a class is BEFORE cap. Yes druids spike hard at lv cap. Has anyone here played a 20th lv game? there are NO beasts that fly after giant eagle (cr 2). You want to make wildshape relevant after 6th lv, print some beasts of higher CR and make it CR of half your lv not 1/3.
To be perfectly clear, I don't want to be better than anyone, what I want is for moon druid to not have all but the 14th lv feature become irrelevant before they get them. Concentration spells plus wildshape is good. Its also subpar compared to staying in caster form.
The only druid that LOOKS like more of a trap subclass is shepherd because its class features come into play when your concentration is consumed by summons, limiting your abilities.
Druids were op in 3.5 because action economy was in their favor With a companion AND they could stay in wildshape all the time AND just for existing for 8 uses per day AND elemental was a single charge use ability. AND there was feat and magic item support.
I mentioned playing a druid extensively as a means of displaying that I have put 100s of hours into the class. Single class moon druids are not the end all be all front liner monstrosities that people think they are, any more than darkness/devil's sight is op and destroys your team (any ally has a straight roll into and within the darkness, not disadvantage because you're both blind. The only one who gets advantage is the warlock). Its a dick combo bc your team panics. Not because it causes mechanical problems. I have no experience with multiclass druids so I make no claims on that.
The druid list IS fantastic. It is also very, very heavy on concentration spells.
People here acting like I want druid to be some god tier business. I don't. I want to use my subclass for what it's designed to do: specialize in shapeshifting. That's the fantasy of the subclass.
the subclass "needs" some tweaking to make it work as it appears to be intended. Druid as a whole is neither stronger nor weaker than any other caster, and casters are generally still better than non-casters.
It is pretty satisfying drowning people inside you as a water elemental.
Question. When a druid uses wild shape and turns into a beast that has a multi-attack action fits the druid also get the use of multi-attack? This is a point of contention within my group.
Why wouldn’t you get multi-attack? What part of the feature would make one think that a Druid wouldn’t get to use multi-attack or any other action from a Wild shape creature?
The only thing that you have to remember is that multi-attack is considered its own action and not the attack action, so it can’t be used with any other class features that rely on taking the attack action (such as extra attack from other classes, etc.).
Question. When a druid uses wild shape and turns into a beast that has a multi-attack action fits the druid also get the use of multi-attack? This is a point of contention within my group.
You specifically can, but multiattack is 1 attack with two or more parts (like eldritch blast), not the more traditional Attack Action.
It sounds to me like you picked a subclass based on its play at level 2 and now 12 levels later are disappointed that your better than everyone else class turned into only an above average class.
I don't want to be betterv than everyone. I want to be what the subclass is designed to be: focused on shifting. Druids are flat out not better in 5e than any other caster, which is good. You cannot look at 20th lv features ( there are no beastscafter 15th lv, and from lv 6 to lv 18 there are 7 beasts) and say how op a class is BEFORE cap. Yes druids spike hard at lv cap. Has anyone here played a 20th lv game? there are NO beasts that fly after giant eagle (cr 2). You want to make wildshape relevant after 6th lv, print some beasts of higher CR and make it CR of half your lv not 1/3.
To be perfectly clear, I don't want to be better than anyone, what I want is for moon druid to not have all but the 14th lv feature become irrelevant before they get them. Concentration spells plus wildshape is good. Its also subpar compared to staying in caster form.
The only druid that LOOKS like more of a trap subclass is shepherd because its class features come into play when your concentration is consumed by summons, limiting your abilities.
Druids were op in 3.5 because action economy was in their favor With a companion AND they could stay in wildshape all the time AND just for existing for 8 uses per day AND elemental was a single charge use ability. AND there was feat and magic item support.
I mentioned playing a druid extensively as a means of displaying that I have put 100s of hours into the class. Single class moon druids are not the end all be all front liner monstrosities that people think they are, any more than darkness/devil's sight is op and destroys your team (any ally has a straight roll into and within the darkness, not disadvantage because you're both blind. The only one who gets advantage is the warlock). Its a dick combo bc your team panics. Not because it causes mechanical problems. I have no experience with multiclass druids so I make no claims on that.
The druid list IS fantastic. It is also very, very heavy on concentration spells.
People here acting like I want druid to be some god tier business. I don't. I want to use my subclass for what it's designed to do: specialize in shapeshifting. That's the fantasy of the subclass.
the subclass "needs" some tweaking to make it work as it appears to be intended. Druid as a whole is neither stronger nor weaker than any other caster, and casters are generally still better than non-casters.
It is pretty satisfying drowning people inside you as a water elemental.
Actually there are plenties of beasts that are CR4,5,6,7 etc. you just need to check out other manual like Tome of Beasts I & II; Monster Manual Expanded I,II,III; Creature Codex.
This way you have a lot more ways to be useful in tier 3 waiting to get godlike status at tier 4.
So I really don't get why complaints so much about no getting proficiency bonus of the druid on attack of the beasts. And there is Insigna of Claws that your DM can tweak a little bit with the Rare and Very Rare variation getting +2 and +3 bonus for attack.
The real question we gotta ask: If you raise a wild shaped druid from the dead with necromancy, are they going to keep the beast's modifier or the zombie's?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I got quotes!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If you Wild Shape into a Bear at level 6, you become a Bear with all his physical stats. If you Wild shape into the same Bear at level 20, you become that same Bear with all his physical stats. That doesn't mean you suddenly become Super Bear just because your character level is 20, you're still just a Bear. RAWR n stuff
How to: Replace DEX in your AC | Jump & Suffocation stats | Build a (Spell & class effect buff system | Wild Shape effect system) | Tool Proficiencies as Custom Skills | Spells at higher levels explained | Superior Fighting/Martial Adept Fix | Snippet Codes Explored - Subclasses | Snippet Math Theory | Homebrew Weapons Explained
Check out my: FEATS | MAGIC ITEMS | MONSTERS | SUBCLASSES Artificer Specialist: Weaveblade
Dndbeyond images not loading A PERMANENT WORKAROUND!!! (thank you Jay_Lane)
A Bear rolling a Flaming Sphere around while throwing lightning. :p
The only things that suffers at high level are the basic attacks. There's nothing non-viable about a free HP bar, access to multiple movement speeds, and the ability to cast spells while transformed.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
but thats not why we choose moon druid to be just a sack of free HP ... I would love to hit as good as the fighter who has magic weapon at this m=point that far boost thier damage output. changing proficiency to mach ours wont be the end of the world its balanced enough.
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
But - You shouldn't becuase if we make it so all classes can "hit as good as a fighter with a magic weapon" what is the point of diversity. The trade off for having wild shapes is literally the ability to have more HP than most other classes. There needs to be trade offs. If you kept a single HP pool I'd agree that the druid would need to have proficiency with the beasts weapons to up their damage and hit. But since they get spells, extra HP, and the abilities of what they turn into, being equal in the ability to hit as a standard bear and not better is the trade off.
but the extra HP doesn't mean much because of the lower AC believe me that HP get burned up fast. that wild shape doesnt get augmented much because of the lack of magical item support. like letterly the only magic Items that boost natural attack is one item in the oldest published adventure. the other items cant really equip.
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
OK so fighter is a bad callout. You dont hit as well as even another druid using sheleighly. Using giant scorpion is worse (theirs is +4) there is no incentive to use ANY whildshape outside of mobility after lv 6, arguably sooner. Baring in mind that any druid can use theirs for mobility. Even elemental forms are mostly good for mobility.
The 5e moon druid is intended to supplant 3.5 feats that maximize wldshape. There is nothing but base kit beasts (and almost none after lv 6) it feels like half a kit. There is literally no reason to wildshape after 14th level, if the goal is to attack (which moon druid is implied to want to do). You'll ALWAYS be doing more damage with cantrips than EVER attacking in any wildshape form. Polymorph is ALWAYS a better option than wildshape because polymorph allows up to your level in cr.
As someone who actually plays druid, I am here to tell you how far 42 hp (cave bear) doesn't go. At 9th lv, it is far and away better to cast a concentration spell and cantrip enemies. Always. There is never a time it is better to wildshape, unless you have specific need of a movement type AND won't be a target (which you will). At 10th, the same is true. Even 2 slam attacks aren't enough to make up for your paltry to-hit AND large target you become.
"Buy you're a tank if you're a target" only if there's no aoe AND no ranged with multiple attacks. And furthermore, if you're big and impotent, you're easy to ignore.
"But your 42 hp is damage you dont take" thats true, but it isn't free, which is how people ask. It had 2 very limited charges, AND takes action economy to do (which could be used for being better in combat) and that action locks you out of other, more effective options (literally anything else that involves hands, speaking, casting, items). Your call lightning gets dispelled or you lose concentration from your "EnDlEsS ach-peeeeees" and now you've used 2 bonus actions, and 2 actions to cast a second spell. That's an insane cost for one failed roll.
Moon druid is NOT tankier than anyone else, and is also significantly worse than most, even with their spellcasting. Their spell list is largely concentration spells, with surprisingly limited non concentration options. Even rogues are tankier than druids. More importantly, the moon druid is not better at control OR damage than any other subclass.
I've run 3 moon druids to 12+ and a 3rd Mountain (land) druid to 8, and so far, literally everything my moons were good for, the land druid does better.
AND THEN and then thers almost no magic item support. (Thers only 3 item IN THE GAME that effect wildshape, and 2 those is a relic items in Mystic Oddessy of Theros)
Feels like beastmaster ranger.
Druids are strong casters with plenty of excellent spell options, and implying that their spell list is in someway subpar shows a misunderstanding of casters. It sounds to me like you picked a subclass based on its play at level 2 and now 12 levels later are disappointed that your better than everyone else class turned into only an above average class.
No need to get angry about all that. Lets return to the question at hand. Each creature's Wildshape doesn't need to scale because Wildshape CRs scale as the druid gains levels. No text in the feature says anything about scaling with the druid's level except for certain skills and saving throws.
I don't want to be betterv than everyone. I want to be what the subclass is designed to be: focused on shifting. Druids are flat out not better in 5e than any other caster, which is good. You cannot look at 20th lv features ( there are no beastscafter 15th lv, and from lv 6 to lv 18 there are 7 beasts) and say how op a class is BEFORE cap. Yes druids spike hard at lv cap. Has anyone here played a 20th lv game? there are NO beasts that fly after giant eagle (cr 2). You want to make wildshape relevant after 6th lv, print some beasts of higher CR and make it CR of half your lv not 1/3.
To be perfectly clear, I don't want to be better than anyone, what I want is for moon druid to not have all but the 14th lv feature become irrelevant before they get them. Concentration spells plus wildshape is good. Its also subpar compared to staying in caster form.
The only druid that LOOKS like more of a trap subclass is shepherd because its class features come into play when your concentration is consumed by summons, limiting your abilities.
Druids were op in 3.5 because action economy was in their favor With a companion AND they could stay in wildshape all the time AND just for existing for 8 uses per day AND elemental was a single charge use ability. AND there was feat and magic item support.
I mentioned playing a druid extensively as a means of displaying that I have put 100s of hours into the class. Single class moon druids are not the end all be all front liner monstrosities that people think they are, any more than darkness/devil's sight is op and destroys your team (any ally has a straight roll into and within the darkness, not disadvantage because you're both blind. The only one who gets advantage is the warlock). Its a dick combo bc your team panics. Not because it causes mechanical problems. I have no experience with multiclass druids so I make no claims on that.
The druid list IS fantastic. It is also very, very heavy on concentration spells.
People here acting like I want druid to be some god tier business. I don't. I want to use my subclass for what it's designed to do: specialize in shapeshifting. That's the fantasy of the subclass.
the subclass "needs" some tweaking to make it work as it appears to be intended. Druid as a whole is neither stronger nor weaker than any other caster, and casters are generally still better than non-casters.
It is pretty satisfying drowning people inside you as a water elemental.
Question. When a druid uses wild shape and turns into a beast that has a multi-attack action fits the druid also get the use of multi-attack? This is a point of contention within my group.
Why wouldn’t you get multi-attack? What part of the feature would make one think that a Druid wouldn’t get to use multi-attack or any other action from a Wild shape creature?
The only thing that you have to remember is that multi-attack is considered its own action and not the attack action, so it can’t be used with any other class features that rely on taking the attack action (such as extra attack from other classes, etc.).
That is what I thought. Thank you for vindicating me.
You specifically can, but multiattack is 1 attack with two or more parts (like eldritch blast), not the more traditional Attack Action.
If you're a beast that has it, you get it.
Actually there are plenties of beasts that are CR4,5,6,7 etc. you just need to check out other manual like Tome of Beasts I & II; Monster Manual Expanded I,II,III; Creature Codex.
This way you have a lot more ways to be useful in tier 3 waiting to get godlike status at tier 4.
So I really don't get why complaints so much about no getting proficiency bonus of the druid on attack of the beasts. And there is Insigna of Claws that your DM can tweak a little bit with the Rare and Very Rare variation getting +2 and +3 bonus for attack.
The real question we gotta ask: If you raise a wild shaped druid from the dead with necromancy, are they going to keep the beast's modifier or the zombie's?
I got quotes!