It is NOT any creature. It is any creature that chooses to participate in this contest with the intention of discovering you.
There's no choice by the creature's use of Passive Perception; but it can choose to take the Search action and make an active Wisdom (Perception) check on the other hand.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score,
I pointed out the the rules for Hiding quite clearly state that you are hidden until you are discovered.
And I haven't disputed that part, but it applies equally to allies and enemies because it also quite clearly only ever specifies creatures.
Therefore, once an enemy discovers you, you are no longer hidden from other enemies.
Except that's not what the rule says, firstly, it never mentions enemies, secondly, it never mentions that being discovered by a single creature means that you are no longer hidden from others, that's not how it works. You are discovered on an individual basis; just as you could be hidden from creatures without darkvision yet known to those that do have it etc.
However, a poster then tried to make a claim that if what I said was true then you would never be able to Hide next to your allies and a Halfling would not be able to Hide behind a horse. Because . . . the ally or the horse would automatically discover you? I mean, it's outlandish.
If the allies can still see you then they don't need to discover you, because there is an explicit exception for that case in the rules. But if you hide where your allies can't see you, then you are also hidden from them as well, because they also don't know where you are. That's what hiding is.
It is NOT any creature. It is any creature that chooses to participate in this contest with the intention of discovering you.
And any creature that doesn't choose to search may either find you anyway due to passive perception, see you if they are able, or continue to not know where you are. The contest is not the only factor involved in hiding. Your allies can absolutely choose not to search for you, but that just means they either do not know where you are, or will only do so if they see you or their passive perception reveals you to them.
Allies do not do this by definition. Allies do not take hostile actions against their allies. Even if an ally sees you, they do not "discover" you -- they are not trying to blow your cover.
They absolutely can discover you, otherwise they don't know where you are if you hide when they can't see you. Discovery doesn't mean they have to expose you to everyone else, it just means that they have discovered you. It is fully possible to be hidden from some creatures and not others.
This is why it is perfectly fine to jump into a foxhole next to your ally and together you Hide from your enemies until you are discovered. My ally in the foxhole with me is not discovering me. He is not participating in the contest. He is on my side. Likewise, the horse in front of the Halfling has absolutely no interest in participating in such a contest (usually).
You are both hidden from enemies, but are visible to one another (no discovery required). If you were instead hiding in separate foxholes, and didn't see which the other chose, then you would be fully hidden from one another as well. If one of you peeks out of the foxhole to look for the other you roll Perception, and on success, you have spotted signs of your ally's presence, but you don't need to expose them to others if you don't want to.
The rule says that you are hidden until you are discovered.
No it doesn't, it says that creatures actively searching for you contest your Stealth check until they discover you, or you stop hiding, because in both cases no further checks are required (unless you Hide again). But that doesn't mean other creatures stop rolling checks if they haven't found you yet.
Being undiscovered and being hidden are not the same thing, the rules never say this, in fact they mention each separately. Just because one creature has discovered you does not mean all other creatures now magically know where you are; even if an enemy discovers you they must still somehow communicate your location to others before those others can act upon it, even a shout of "they're over here!" won't necessarily reveal you to all enemies depending upon positioning and timing, it just gives them knowledge of where to hurl attacks and area effects.
If you're hiding behind a couch, and one enemy hears you there, they can shout "he's behind the couch!" to their comrades. You're actually still hiding from the others, but they now know where to hurl attacks and area effects with a chance of hitting you. If you somehow sneak away to a different location while remaining hidden to them, they will be attacking in vain unless updated with your new position by the enemy that knows where you are (who will continue to know where you are until you Hide again).
I will grant that the rules could be clearer, but it's clear how they're intended to function because otherwise you're having to assume a level of psychic knowledge that the rules never tell you to.
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It is NOT any creature. It is any creature that chooses to participate in this contest with the intention of discovering you.
There's no choice by the creature's use of Passive Perception;
What?? This is not true.
There is an explicit example in Chapter 8: Adventuring -> Activity While Traveling.
Noticing Threats
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat.
However,
Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
So, characters pretty much always have a choice. They can participate in the activity of Noticing Threats, or they can participate in some Other Activity instead. This applies directly to the question of contesting your Stealth against an ally's perception in combat. The ally simply is not going to participate in this. There is no reason to. They are on your side. There is no mechanical advantage during battle of discovering and potentially exposing my ally. There are better things to do with the action economy that actually lead to a higher percentage chance for a favorable outcome for the group (of allies). Whether or not my ally sees me does not affect whether or not I remain hidden from my enemies since my ally is not participating in any of the rules for hiding -- with respect to hiding, it's like the ally isn't even there.
I pointed out the the rules for Hiding quite clearly state that you are hidden until you are discovered.
And I haven't disputed that part, but it applies equally to allies and enemies because it also quite clearly only ever specifies creatures.
False. It quite clearly specifies any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. Or, a creature who is attempting to passively notice threats where you qualify as a threat. Note that the phrase "notice you" is the same as in Chapter 8 (mentioned above) where passive perception is specifically used when "noticing hidden threats". This is not a coincidence. All of these rules work together.
Therefore, once an enemy discovers you, you are no longer hidden from other enemies.
Except that's not what the rule says, firstly, it never mentions enemies, secondly, it never mentions that being discovered by a single creature means that you are no longer hidden from others, that's not how it works.
What?? How many times must we quote the rule before people actually read it?
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
This says:
When you try to hide, you make a Stealth check. That check is contested by any creature that tries to discover you by finding or noticing you UNTIL YOU ARE DISCOVERED.
Mechanically, that check disappears from existence when you are discovered. In order to participate in a future contest, you'll need a new stealth check, by rule. To do that, you'll need to take the Hide action (again). When you don't have a stealth roll, you are not hidden.
So yes, it really does say that being discovered by a single creature means that you are no longer hidden from others. It's quoted above.
Secondly, the rule describes what happens when you try to Hide. You must roll for stealth in order to try. In order to actually be hidden and/or to remain hidden, you must actually win contests against creatures who are trying to discover you. The creatures who are trying to discover you in combat, which is a hostile action that you are attempting to prevent, are enemies by definition. Allies will not participate in this entire process. There is no reason for them to. There is no mechanical benefit for them to do so. They are on your side.
. . . it says that creatures actively searching for you contest your Stealth check until they discover you, or you stop hiding, because in both cases no further checks are required (unless you Hide again). But that doesn't mean other creatures stop rolling checks if they haven't found you yet.
This is absolutely positively 100% NOT what the rule says.
"Until you are discovered . . . that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any [searching] creature . . . "
There is literally no way to interpret that in the way you have described above. It simply doesn't say that. Different words are used than what you've said.
Not until they discover you. Until any [searching] creature discovers you.
For the life of me I cannot understand why we can't all get together on what "until you are discovered," means. That is just baffling.
If the allies can still see you then they don't need to discover you, because there is an explicit exception for that case in the rules. But if you hide where your allies can't see you, then you are also hidden from them as well, because they also don't know where you are. That's what hiding is.
No, this isn't quite true either. Hiding involves winning contests against creatures who are trying to discover you or notice you because you are a threat.
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Ok, I think I'm starting to understand why people are not getting this. Let's try it a different way . . .
Suppose you are transported to a different world where there are no other creatures. You are the only creature in the entire world. Now you duck down behind a bush. Are you hidden? From whom? What mechanical benefit are you hoping to achieve by ducking down behind the bush? In 5e, the main mechanical benefit of hiding is so that you can't be targeted by an attack. Who will attack you? You are the only creature in the world. Really, you are just hanging out behind a bush.
Now, all of your allies are transported to that world and you are reunited. You and your allies are the only creatures in the entire world. Your allies are excited because there are no threats so they lie down in their lawn chairs and soak up the sun, drinking some beers. Now you duck down behind a bush. Are you hidden? From whom? What mechanical benefit are you hoping to achieve by ducking down behind the bush? Are you worried that your allies will attack you and you are trying to make it so that you cannot be targeted by their attacks? Are your allies worried that you will attack them while they cannot see you? No. Your allies are lying on lawn chairs, soaking up the sun and drinking some beers. Trying to hide doesn't work because there is no contest to win. Really, you are just hanging out behind a bush.
I always thought of things like this as part of the cover rules.
If you have total cover from someone they can not see you even if an ally of their does see you from a different angle.
The whole " I yell there is an elf behind that tree" while in a forest of trees was just ,lets say, odd. Now everyone is just looking at trees. If your close enough together to point out exactly what tree you might have a point but just a verbal description of a specific place gets complicated and normally takes more then 6 seconds.
By implementing the "if one sees him they all do rule" you pretty much nerf the hide rule in any situation.
It is NOT any creature. It is any creature that chooses to participate in this contest with the intention of discovering you.
There's no choice by the creature's use of Passive Perception;
What?? This is not true.
There is an explicit example in Chapter 8: Adventuring -> Activity While Traveling.
Noticing Threats
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat.
However,
Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
So, characters pretty much always have a choice. They can participate in the activity of Noticing Threats, or they can participate in some Other Activity instead. This applies directly to the question of contesting your Stealth against an ally's perception in combat. The ally simply is not going to participate in this. There is no reason to.
You're quoting traveling rules when the thread is about using Stealth in combat. Travel rules have specific rules that trump general rules with ranks and tasks turning their Passive Perception off in a sense, so that everyone can contribute during travel according to where they are and what they do. But again if you are doing another task, you have no choice to use or not use your passive Perception.
This is very different than what we are talking about here., if in combat you hide,, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you (ally or enemy), the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score. There's no choice but during traveling it just wouldn't do so if the creature's rank or task doesn't allow it.
A Passive check can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster. If it was a choice to use it, it wouldn't be a secret ;)
Passive Checks: A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Sometimes it's important to be aware of how various rules throughout the text interact because in order to save space the text will not repeat itself in every section where a concept is used. For example, the concept of Hiding and how it works is spread out across many different rules in multiple chapters. We need to know about Vision and Light, Obscured areas, rules for Cover, the Hide action, the general rules for Hiding and so on to get the full picture.
What you are describing with respect to Passive Perception is not how the skill is meant to be used. The skills of Stealth and Perception are described elsewhere and how to use them is explained elsewhere -- that information is assumed to already be known when we read the Rules for Hiding -- it will not be spelled out again in that portion of the text.
For information about the skills we have to go back to Chapter 7 -> Using Each Ability.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
and
FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook.
Every example given has to do with staying aware and looking out for danger, gathering intelligence about our enemies, or keeping a look out for important environmental information such as secret doors and traps. This is not meant to be a skill to keep track of our allies or to notice details that are irrelevant to the adventure.
We don't take a step and say "Because of your passive perception you see a cloud drift across the sky" and then another step and "because of your passive perception you see a clump of grass growing in the middle of the dirt path" and then another step and "because of your passive perception you hear the wind gently rustling the leaves of the nearby trees" and so on.
You don't say "you are walking north in a single file and reach an intersection. Your companion in the front continues to the east. You momentarily lose sight of him as he turns the corner -- but, oh, because of your passive perception you can still hear his footsteps for a couple of seconds until you also turn the corner".
Passive perception is not meant to be used in any of these ways. It's mainly about staying aware of danger. Your allies are not dangerous. They are on your side.
Likewise, Stealth is described like this:
Stealth
Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard.
All of these activities in these examples are adversarial. Yes, it says that you might sneak up on "someone" but in context they are talking about sneaking up on an enemy. Just read the whole thing in context. Conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away or sneak up on someone. They are not talking about hiding from allies or sneaking up on allies. That is not how the skill is meant to be used. You don't hide from your allies. They are on your side.
This is why when you now flip to the Rules for Hiding and read something like how you are trying to remain undiscovered by any creature who is trying to find you -- we can go ahead and apply what the skill is actually doing. When we are being stealthy, it means something specific. We are trying to gain a tactical, mechanical advantage. We don't sneak around the campfire while our allies are busy eating dinner. You're not really doing anything -- you're just sort of tiptoeing around. Your allies pose no danger so you are not really hiding or sneaking. You are just being quiet.
As an example, let's say we are traveling with our allies and one of them gets upset about something. We would not use the Animal Handling skill to try to calm them down. This is because we can go back to that same section and read about what Animal Handling is meant to be used for. It's a specific skill that does something in particular and is used in a particular way -- otherwise you are not really doing the skill. If the skill doesn't apply to the situation, you don't use it.
If we are sitting around a campfire with our allies and doing some normal, cooperative roleplaying, the DM does not interject with something like "Ok, because of your passive insight, you know that he just told the truth just now." That's not how the skill is meant to be used.
When we try to Hide in combat, it should be somewhat obvious that the intent is to avoid detection from our enemies. That is because the actual, mechanical benefit of being hidden is that you cannot be targeted by an attack. This does not apply to allies -- an ally is not going to attack you, by definition. Likewise, an ally is not going to try to stay aware for signs of his allies. They are staying aware for danger.
So, your allies do not "break your stealth". But enemies do. This is because, by rule, your stealth roll remains in effect until you are discovered.
False. It quite clearly specifies any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. Or, a creature who is attempting to passively notice threats where you qualify as a threat. Note that the phrase "notice you" is the same as in Chapter 8 (mentioned above) where passive perception is specifically used when "noticing hidden threats". This is not a coincidence. All of these rules work together.
This isn't even remotely true; the rule literally states right there in the quotes you post:
When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching.
You do not choose to make passive checks, that is literally the exact opposite of what passive checks are normally used for. There is no "attempting to notice passively", that's not a thing, and never has been.
I'm not even going to bother picking apart the rest as it's clearly a waste of everybody's time; we can't help if you refuse to accept what is written in the rules and keep inventing new things that they simply do not say.
If you want to know how the rules work, forget your preconceptions and just sit and read only what they say. They're far from the best rules in the game (in fact I've complained multiple times the rules for stealth and hiding are among the worst in 5e, thrown scattershot across multiple sections with no good examples of how to run it). But that doesn't change the fact that collectively those rules do say something, and it's what everyone else has been trying to tell you it says. I'm sorry to be blunt about it, but there's a reason you're the lone voice here.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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False. It quite clearly specifies any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. Or, a creature who is attempting to passively notice threats where you qualify as a threat. Note that the phrase "notice you" is the same as in Chapter 8 (mentioned above) where passive perception is specifically used when "noticing hidden threats". This is not a coincidence. All of these rules work together.
This isn't even remotely true
Oh, you mean except for this part?
. . . that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
. . . To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score
Yeah, I guess you're right. I guess it just says "any creature". Darn, you got me.
You do not choose to make passive checks, that is literally the exact opposite of what passive checks are normally used for. There is no "attempting to notice passively", that's not a thing, and never has been.
Oh, you mean except for this?
Noticing Threats
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat.
However,
Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
I'm not even going to bother picking apart the rest as it's clearly a waste of everybody's time;
You sure are right about that -- I agree completely.
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Look, if you guys want to play in a game where a halfling cannot use its ability and group stealth is not possible because allies break stealth, go knock yourselves out I guess. That doesn't sound very fun to me but everyone has fun in their own way.
If you want to play in a game where every turn of every round of combat we have to update potentially hundreds of entries of a giant spreadsheet of who is still hidden from whom in both directions then you can go have fun with that as well. As long as the DM and all of the players are on the same page you can play however you want.
False. It quite clearly specifies any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. Or, a creature who is attempting to passively notice threats where you qualify as a threat. Note that the phrase "notice you" is the same as in Chapter 8 (mentioned above) where passive perception is specifically used when "noticing hidden threats". This is not a coincidence. All of these rules work together.
This isn't even remotely true
Oh, you mean except for this part?
. . . that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
That quote is for active checks not passive ones, which were what I was talking about, since that's what I was replying to. I'm sorry, but it's clear you're not reading anything we're saying, any more than you're reading the rules themselves, or even what you yourself have said, so why reply?
This is looking pretty bad for you now. Several times in a row both the active and passive clauses were included together and now you complain that I was talking about only active checks. All you have to do is scroll up. Wow.
Please go back and review the conversation. All relevant aspects of this rule have been summarized many many times now.
I know that you guys keep reading "Until you are discovered" and you desperately want the rule to say something more than that. But every time that you read it the words remain the same. I've explained what it means, how it works, how certain basic assumptions are not spelled out since they appear elsewhere, why the designers likely wrote it this way, and on and on. I use quotes, I speak in logic and facts. You seem to disagree with all of that but your best argument seems to be "but it doesn't make sense that it would be that way". While that may or may not be true, that doesn't change the rule as written.
At this point in the thread, I think it's worth going over what the Hide action and Hiding rules actually say in their entirety, because we've now had multiple pages of quoting only little pieces and it's leading to weird assumptions and misunderstandings.
The core of the stealth and hiding rules consists of essentially three parts:
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
This is all of the important parts for how hiding works mechanically:
Creatures (friend or foe) that want to know where you make a Perception check ("any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence").
Other creatures use passive perception ("there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching").
You can't hide from a creature that can see you (but this does not prevent you from hiding from others).
"Signs of your presence" typically refers to any sound you are making; the purpose of hiding is to become both unseen and unheard by some or all creatures in the area, though other senses may also be involved in some cases.
So creatures are either aware of "signs of your presence" or they're not; if a creature wants to know where you are it must actively check, if a creature doesn't care where you are, or isn't searching, it may still passively know where you are. If a creature can see you, it doesn't need to do any of this.
Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
This tells us what the benefit of hiding is in combat, and also that attacking reveals our location. It's a little confusing in that it implies that being hidden means you're unseen (so should be an unseen attacker) but this is made less certain by the Hiding rule itself:
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
On this basis it's fair to assume that being hidden doesn't automatically mean you are an unseen attacker in all cases; you must either remain unseen throughout the attack (e.g- attacking from darkness) or be able to argue that your enemy is distracted, e.g- if a creature is fighting an enemy to its front, it won't see you emerging from cover behind it, if you attack from above it may not look up in time to see you etc.
Hit or miss, you have revealed your location to any creatures that can now see or hear you, saw or heard your attack etc. (they may not see you in the darkness, but if an arrow came from it they can be sure there's an archer in there). Non-attacks can also reveal you if they make sound or otherwise reveal your presence.
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this section.
Search
When you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something. Depending on the nature of your search, the DM might have you make a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Essentially these are just to tell us how the action economy of hiding and searching work during combat, since you don't really worry about that out of combat; most characters need to use their action to hide or to search (though some are able to do so as bonus actions, legendary actions etc.).
Anyone that doesn't want to spend an action to search, or isn't trying to search, may still find a hidden creature using their passive perception as detailed in the Hiding rules.
Additional Reference
The rules for Contested Checks and Passive Checks also apply, but we don't really need to refer to passive checks because the Hiding rule reiterates the parts we need (and gives an example), and we don't really need to refer to Contests either because the Hiding rule says what to do.
It's worth noting that draws in the case of Stealth vs. Perception contests mean that you have failed to hide (or remain hidden) from the creature that rolled the perception check, as that contest is only between them and you. It would have been nice if the Hiding rules clarified this as some people might interpret it differently (being detected is a new result, so remaining hidden is "no change") but if we think of the Stealth check as setting a DC value, then equalling or beating it is a success (discover the hidden creature).
The Vision and Light section is also useful for considering where a character might be able to remain hidden, though it mostly boils down to "if you can't see into it easily, then someone can hide in it".
This should be the stealth rules as complete and as clear as I can summarise them, and I think it's useful to have all the important bits together as the pieces being scattered all over the place is a big part of what leads to confusion and misinformation. The rules themselves are actually fairly simple, and only say what they say, though it uses some terms unhelpfully.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Creatures (friend or foe) that are looking for you make a Perception check ("any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence").
Other creatures use passive perception ("there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching").
You can't hide from a creature that can see you (but this does not prevent you from hiding from others).
So creatures are either aware of "signs of your presence" or they're not; if a creature wants to know where you are it must actively check, if a creature doesn't care where you are, or isn't searching, it may still passively know where you are. If a creature can see you, it doesn't need to do any of this.
The rule was quoted correctly and this is actually a pretty decent summary, but it is incomplete. The major omission here is the description of how long you remain hidden. According to the rules, as quoted above this summary, you will remain hidden as long as that stealth check from the first bullet point continues to win contests against any creature who actively searches for you or has a chance to notice you. That process continues "until you are discovered or you stop hiding". At that point, that stealth check from the first bullet point is no longer used in any future contests. Therefore, at that point, you are no longer hidden.
I have two other complaints about the above summary, based on the above point about the duration of hiding as specified in the rule.
First, hiding from some creatures while others can see you clearly should not work based on how the rule is written. This is because the creature who can see you clearly will instantly discover you which instantly ends the duration of hiding.
Secondly, I would rule that this should not apply to allies and therefore the second bullet point should not apply to allies either. Otherwise, group stealth doesn't work. Although not spelled out directly in the rule, the rationale that skills such as stealth and perception should only apply to enemies in combat is twofold: First, the description of the skills themselves and when and how they should be used, which appears in Chapter 7 -> Using Each Ability, strongly suggests this. We do not use skills in situations where they do not apply. The second reason is because the advantage of being Hidden in combat is that you cannot be targeted by an attack. This just does not apply to allies, so it is enough to just say that the ally cannot see or hear his other ally. Whether or not you decide to rule that an ally might be technically Hidden from another ally or not, the main point is that an ally should not break another ally's stealth in the same way that an enemy does when it "discovers you". Because of that, it's most correct to assume that you don't Hide from your allies and your allies do not discover you because the skills involved do not apply to that situation.
[Unseen Attackers and Targets] tells us what the benefit of hiding is in combat, and also that attacking reveals our location.
This is a common misconception. Being Hidden is different from being an Unseen Attacker or Target. The benefits described in Unseen Attackers and Targets (generally) apply to all unseen attackers and targets -- not just those which are Hidden.
The actual confusing part with this is in the actual Hide action description where it says "If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this section".
What happened here is that for some reason the authors combined the explanations for the benefits of Hiding and the benefits of being an Unseen Attacker or Target into the same section, which is called Unseen Attackers and Targets. The only part within that section that actually applies to Hidden creatures is this:
This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss
So, if you are targeting a creature that you can hear but not see then you are attacking an Unseen Target (NOT a Hidden Target) in which case you just have disadvantage on the attack. If instead you are attacking a Hidden creature then you must guess the target's location and if you are wrong you automatically miss.
This is the ONLY mechanical benefit of being Hidden in combat. If YOU are attacking another creature, it does not matter if you are Hidden or just Unseen -- an Unseen attacker gets advantage on the attack.
On this basis it's fair to assume that being hidden doesn't automatically mean you are an unseen attacker in all cases; you must either remain unseen throughout the attack (e.g- attacking from darkness) or be able to argue that your enemy is distracted
Yes! This is pretty much correct. Although, in my opinion if you did NOT remain unseen throughout the attack then you have "come out of hiding" and/or you "stopped hiding". This means that you are not actually Hidden during this attack -- you are no longer Hidden (remember, the duration of Hiding specified in the rules for Hiding states that you remain Hidden "Until you are discovered or you stop Hiding").
Conversely, if you are an Unseen Attacker, it does not automatically mean that you are Hidden. The benefit while attacking comes from being Unseen, not from being Hidden.
. . . If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
Hit or miss, you have revealed your location to any creatures that can now see or hear you, saw or heard your attack etc. (they may not see you in the darkness, but if an arrow came from it they can be sure there's an archer in there). Non-attacks can also reveal you if they make sound or otherwise reveal your presence.
I have a complaint with this interpretation as well. It is along the same theme as the overall argument in this thread about the Rules for Hiding.
If we carefully read the section Unseen Attackers and Targets, it says quite simply "when you make an attack, you give away your location". It does NOT say that you give away your location to this creature or that creature but not those creatures over there. No. Your location is given away, by rule. You are no longer Hidden.
It's worth noting that draws in the case of Stealth vs. Perception contests mean that you are not hidden to the creature that rolled the perception check (failed to hide, or remain hidden, from it).
Unfortunately, this is also incorrect information. According to the rules for contests, we have this:
If the contest results in a tie, the situation remains the same as it was before the contest.
So, if a creature is already Hidden then a tie results in the creature remaining Hidden. But, if we began in a situation where the creature was already discovered but is now attempting to Hide while there are creatures nearby who can immediately contest that effort, then a tie results in a failure to Hide.
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I do wholeheartedly agree with you that all of this should have been better consolidated and organized and generally written more clearly. Hopefully in a future version of the game these rules will be improved.
Your wrong and I am glad my DM does not play your way.
We can not see every enemy and we expect the same from them. We use minis and line of sight plays a big part in our combats. Without line of sight they are still hidden from you. Even if everyone else sees them you do not.
You could area effect that target but that is all.
Exact communication in any combat is far far harder than you seem to think.
Do not nerf characters or creatures because you can not be bothered with a little extra work that would simply make things better and more realistic.
Based on your comments it seems like you don't quite understand what I've been saying.
If you use minis in your games then a really good way to do it is that if a monster successfully hides, the DM could remove that mini from the map completely. The DM then secretly keeps track of that monster's location until it is discovered. When that monster is discovered, the DM simply places that mini back onto the map. This does not impact things like full cover due to line of sight or anything.
If you think about it, this is very likely EXACTLY the reason (or one of the big reasons) why the designers of the game decided to simplify this rule in this way. As a DM, how can you possibly remove a mini from the game board for SOME of the players, but not for ALL of the players? That would be really difficult. Think about it.
Based on your comments it seems like you don't quite understand what I've been saying.
If you use minis in your games then a really good way to do it is that if a monster successfully hides, the DM could remove that mini from the map completely. The DM then secretly keeps track of that monster's location until it is discovered. When that monster is discovered, the DM simply places that mini back onto the map. This does not impact things like full cover due to line of sight or anything.
If you think about it, this is very likely EXACTLY the reason (or one of the big reasons) why the designers of the game decided to simplify this rule in this way. As a DM, how can you possibly remove a mini from the game board for SOME of the players, but not for ALL of the players? That would be really difficult. Think about it.
You just don’t metagame. It’s not that difficult. If you have a board it’d be pretty easy to see which people do and do not have line of sight of each other, and if in doubt ask your DM. Done.
As for your other points about enemies magically discovering people, why would you use that as a rule? Sure, it might be the RAW (I don’t think so), but it makes literally no sense whatsoever. Case in point - I’m invisible. I’m fighting a creature with truesight and two creatures without. Just because I’m not hidden from the creature with truesight doesn’t mean I’m not hidden from the creatures without. I’m still hidden from them. Suggesting otherwise seems really odd, IMO.
Second example. The party is fighting a group of goblins in some kind of maze-like structure, maybe a cellar or a sewer. I hide in a dead end. A goblin discovers me. Why does every other goblin, most of which would be fighting other party members, and who likely can’t even see the discovering goblin, telepathically know where I am? It seems ridiculous to me. Regardless of what the RAW is, ruling it that way seems very rules-for-the-sake-of-rules.
As for your other points about enemies magically discovering people, why would you use that as a rule? Sure, it might be the RAW (I don’t think so), but it makes literally no sense whatsoever.
It's not the RAW; how you're running this is the correct way to do-so according to the rules themselves. At no point do the Hiding rules ever say that being discovered by one creature means that all creatures across all timelines of every multiverse now also know where you are, because that clearly would be ridiculous and all but impossible to run. The fact that being discovered and no longer hiding are separate makes it clear these are not the same.
The hiding rules further clarify this, because "you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly", but nowhere does it say that being seen prevents you from trying to hide, only that you can't hide from (be hidden from) a creature that can see you, individually. The wording is "you can't hide from a creature that can see you" not "you can't hide if a creature can see you", and this is clearly for good reason, because to treat it as the latter means hiding becomes unnecessarily difficult, or requires mental gymnastics and invented extra wording about allies and neutral parties being treated differently (despite no wording to that effect) for it to function at all, and that introduces additional problems. The rules say what they say.
I think it's also worth pointing out that trying to hide and being hidden are not the same thing; trying to hide (as the rules state it) is the attempt to hide, while being hidden is the result you are hoping for. The use of "try to hide" is very clearly intentional, because it clarifies the somewhat loose definition of "hiding" in english (which could mean both trying to hide, and being hidden, which gets confusing). Trying to hide and being hidden in the rules are not a conditions like being poisoned, it's not something you gain on a success then lose on failure; if that's how it was intended to be run then that's what the rules would say.
Hiding successfully means you are hidden from creature(s) that have yet to discover you (can't see you when you hide, and whose passive perception you have beaten with your Stealth check). When a creature discovers you, the creature that discovered you stops rolling checks to do-so, and is now aware of "signs of your presence". This is how discovering things works; if I find money in the street, I have discovered it, but nobody knows I have done so unless I tell them about it. Individuals make discoveries, they can only become a group discovery once shared, which is not a required step and doesn't happen automagically.
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You just don’t metagame. It’s not that difficult. If you have a board it’d be pretty easy to see which people do and do not have line of sight of each other, and if in doubt ask your DM. Done.
Hi Redpelt,
This seems to be similar confusion as another recent poster. Simply looking to see who has line of sight against whom is NOT the same as knowing who is Hidden from whom. These are two different things. Remaining Hidden requires staying unseen and unheard in an unknown location such that you cannot be targeted by an attack -- it requires a deliberate action to become Hidden beyond just simple re-positioning on the battlefield. To remain Hidden, you must continue to win contests against creatures who might discover or notice you. Being Unseen (line of sight, etc) gains only a subset of the benefits of being Hidden.
Case in point - I’m invisible. I’m fighting a creature with truesight and two creatures without. Just because I’m not hidden from the creature with truesight doesn’t mean I’m not hidden from the creatures without. I’m still hidden from them. Suggesting otherwise seems really odd, IMO.
So again, you are confusing the rules. Being invisible does NOT make you Hidden. This is actually spelled out very clearly in the rules. There is a whole section within the Rules for Hiding dedicated to this concept where it says:
An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
This means that an invisible creature actually has to take the Hide action and win contests vs perception in order to remain Hidden just like anybody else.
So, in this example if the invisible creature is standing in an open room doing battle against 3 other creatures, he is NOT Hidden. However, because he has the "Invisible" condition, he is Unseen, which grants him advantage while attacking and his opponents have disadvantage when they try to attack. Well, as it turns out one of those opponents has "Truesight". So THAT opponent does not have disadvantage when attacking and when the invisible creature attacks that creature who has Truesight, he does not have advantage on that attack. BUT, advantage and disadvantage benefits still DO apply against the other two opponents. All of that has to do with being Unseen, NOT Hidden.
If that invisible creature now attempts to Hide, he will simply fail because the creature with Truesight can see him clearly. If the Invisible creature tried to Hide before these 3 creatures entered the room, he would expect to have to win some contests to remain Hidden. However, it turns out that one of these opponents has Truesight and so he is automatically discovered since he can see him clearly. At that point the invisible creature is no longer Hidden for the upcoming battle. However, he is still Unseen by two of his three opponents.
Second example. The party is fighting a group of goblins in some kind of maze-like structure, maybe a cellar or a sewer. I hide in a dead end. A goblin discovers me. Why does every other goblin, most of which would be fighting other party members, and who likely can’t even see the discovering goblin, telepathically know where I am? It seems ridiculous to me. Regardless of what the RAW is, ruling it that way seems very rules-for-the-sake-of-rules.
I agree that the rule is overly simplified and that we can craft scenarios which make it less than ideal to apply this rule. At some point it will be up to the DM to decide when a rule is applicable to a situation, just like every other rule in the game.
In the extreme, we can question whether or not a creature that exists on the other side of the planet becomes aware of the Hidden creature's location when it is discovered. To me, these rules do not apply to that situation. We are talking about the context of a battle, usually between one group of allies vs one group of enemies. If the party had decided to split up and attack a very large army camp from two different flanks and these groups are miles and miles apart from each other -- then we need to change how we are applying the rules. Even if for some reason we are resolving this situation at the same time, turn by turn and round by round (although it's hard to think of a reason why we would do this) for all intents and purposes these two groups are not participating in the same battle and so some of these rules do not apply. These rules all do exist but obviously the DM has to actually run the game.
Your first example is a much better example of when to apply the rules for Hiding as written. In a similar scenario, I walk through a room shoulder to shoulder with two of my allies. One of my allies notices an enemy Hiding behind a curtain against the wall. Combat ensues and if it is my turn I can now attack and directly target that enemy. My passive perception was not high enough to hear that enemy and I was not able to notice the subtle shift in the curtain's position while the enemy was breathing on it. But my ally did notice these things and was able to discover the enemy and its location is now known. The enemy is no longer Hidden and I can now target that enemy with an attack as normal. NOTE: I still cannot SEE that enemy -- it is behind a curtain. So, if I attack I have disadvantage on that attack as per the rules for Unseen Targets. The only difference is that I know where the enemy is (because it has been discovered and is therefore no longer Hidden) and I can target it with my attack.
Those are the sorts of situations where we apply the rules for Hiding. Pretty much anything in the context of a battle should work this way.
I really do appreciate a poster bring up the possibility of playing with minis because that makes this whole discussion pretty much a slam dunk. If we are talking about the context of a battle within a small enough space such that the Hidden creature in question exists somewhere on this battle map and the enemies in question also exist somewhere on this battle map, then the Rule for Hiding should be applied, even though it will be an over-simplification in some cases. This allows the DM to remove the mini of a Hidden creature and then replace it onto the map when it is discovered. Simple. Fast. Keeps the game moving. NOT a perfect battle simulation. A simplified rule that works well in most cases.
At no point do the Hiding rules ever say that being discovered by one creature means that all creatures across all timelines of every multiverse now also know where you are, because that clearly would be ridiculous and all but impossible to run. The fact that being discovered and no longer hiding are separate in the rules makes it clear that these are not the same thing.
The rule itself has been quoted many times in this thread now and it directly contradicts what you are saying here. First, as discussed above, we do not apply the rule to all creatures across all timelines of every multiverse because those creatures are not participating in the current combat. We only apply rules to situations where they are applicable. However, the rule does clearly state that when you are discovered you are no longer Hiding, as has been mentioned probably over a dozen times now.
I have absolutely no idea how you can claim that "being discovered and no longer hiding are separate" when the rule literally says:
Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, [you can attempt to remain hidden]
How are these separate? They are listed together! Baffling.
The hiding rules further clarify this, because "you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly", but nowhere does it say that being seen prevents you from trying to hide, only that you can't hide from (be hidden from) a creature that can see you, individually.
It is true that this portion of the rule is phrased like that. But we have to take this in context with the rest of the rule because each and every sentence and paragraph is not going to repeat and spell out the same concepts over and over again. They are trying to explain another, related concept after having already explained the mechanics for Hiding. Yes, we cannot hide from a creature that can see you clearly. However, we remain Hidden "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding". So, trying to Hide while a creature can see you simply will not work. Your stealth roll immediately becomes inactive since it only remains active "until you are discovered or you stop hiding", by rule.
For example, you duck down behind some crates. My ally on the other side of the room cannot see you. But I am literally standing over you, in melee range, watching you do this. You remain perfectly quiet and still and you look up at me and put your finger to your lips and whisper, "Shhh, I am trying to Hide from your ally!" My response in many cases is to smash you over the head with my mace, thereby creating a ton of noise which should break your stealth anyway. This sort of noise when you are discovered is implied by how the rule is written and designed. You will not remain perfectly quiet and still while an enemy is about to smash your head with a mace. If you insist on doing this, I would probably declare the attack to be an auto-hit and an auto-crit since you are doing something so ridiculous. And once that happens the noise from this skirmish will break your stealth anyway.
Or, we can simply follow the rules and Hide "until you are discovered or you stop hiding".
Hiding successfully means you are hidden from creature(s) that have yet to discover you (can't see you when you hide, and whose passive perception you have beaten with your Stealth check). When a creature discovers you, the creature that discovered you stops rolling checks to do-so, and is now aware of "signs of your presence". This is how discovering things works; if I find money in the street, I have discovered it, but nobody knows I have done so unless I tell them about it. Individuals make discoveries, they can only become a group discovery once shared, which is not a required step and doesn't happen automagically.
While all of this would appear to make logical sense, it is NOT what the rule says. The rule is written from the point of view of your stealth check, not from the point of view of the various perception checks.
"Until you are discovered . . . that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any [searching] creature . . . "
"That check" refers to your stealth roll. The rule is describing the duration of how long your stealth roll is good for. The value of your stealth roll represents how well Hidden you are. You continue to use this same value for all future contests until you are discovered. When you are discovered, that is the end of using that stealth check. You must take the Hide action again if you want a new stealth check.
I see here this long discussion and it quite interests me as the rules for hiding were always a bit unclear to me too. I think that we all somehow agree on the fact, that rules for hiding are not very well written and are ambiguous.
To me, this argument with you, up2ng, is really only about understanding of one word in one sentence. "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
- You intepret the word "discovered" universally in a sense, that being discovered by one creature implies you are discovered by all. - Everybody else thinks, that it means discovered only by that one particular creature, who searches (and succeeds). Therefore this argument is not so much about RAW, but more about RAI. How each of us interpret the rules, and the discussion is, what might be the intentions of those rules. Even though I understand your interpretation and I see that this sentence really can mean what you propose, I do not agree with this interpetation. To me this interpretation would cause so much weird behavior and situations in the game.
You also provide a reason for this, and that is simplification instead of realism - by your words to avoid having spreadsheets to track who is hidden from whom. But this is just assumption that such "simplification" was really the developers intention. I think that in real game you rarely have someone hidden. It is not like you have twenty creatures each round taking hide action. Normally you have just few creatures in combat and occasionaly someone is taking hide action. Then it is not so much trouble to keep track of this. So, such simplification is not really necessary.
But there are many problems with your interpretation.
In order for it to work as you intend, you need to distinguish who is ally and who is enemy, and then claim, that allies do not try to discover hidden ally (by making Perception checks - active or passive), because "they are on your side". But there are many situations, where being hidden from your allies makes huge difference. And the fact that they would need to make Perception check does not necessarily make them enemies or traitors.
Here is an example situation: I am invisible standing in the middle of meadow. There are enemies and allies. I use Hide action and move few feet. Lets say I roll high and beat everyones passive Perception. I am hidden. Then, my ally wants to send fireball on enemies, but he does not want to hit me. If your propsal would be true, my ally automatically knows where I am and can place the fireball ideally not to hit me. And my other ally, who wants to heal me with Cure Wounds can also do so easily as she is aware of my location, she can move towards me and touch me. This is just wrong. Or other option could be that DM asks those allies to first Search for me, having them roll Perception. But if that happens, by your definition, just this act of succesful Search would discover me also for all enemies, because I would become discovered and therefore no longer hidden. My allies discovered me, but my enemies now know where I am also. It does not make any sense.
Another problem would be already mentioned halflings trait, where they can Hide behind creature. With this interpretation they practically can hide only behind allies. If they try to hide behind enemy, that enemy sees him and therefore reveals the location to everybody.
I also see the problem with the logic of how all enemies would pass the information about the location where I am hiding. If one enemy discovers me (either by seeing me clearly or succesfully passing Perception check), but has no way of communicating it to his friends, it makes no sense that suddenly all know where I am. What if we are fighting group of mindless oozes? One of the oozes discovers me. How it can suddenly tell all the other oozes?
To summarize, I understand your interpretation of these rules, but I do not agree with it. It brings more trouble than it is solving (only somewhat simplifies the tracking). I would rather have more realistic hiding rules applicable for most of normal encounters, than simplified rules which make sense only in very specific encounter where a lot of hiding happens.
At our tables we seriously discourage meta gaming.
Even to the point of taking the hit in combat because we did not know the location of an ally or an enemy. Hidden is hidden from everyone not in direct and clear sight of you.
If you have too just put a little "hidden: marker on the mini to make sure the next guy has to make that perception check, just do it.
Your the only guy in the world in the last 30 years to make your argument. You have not found the games only flaw or even a flaw at all. If it was intended to go your way it would have been clarified years ago.
Aasimar11, you bring up a bunch of good points. I agree that this simplification is not ideal in some situations.
But, in my opinion, the other interpretation has many problems as well.
Tell me how you would deal with this example:
I am in combat against 3 enemies -- these are EnemyA, EnemyB and EnemyC. I run behind a row of bushes, duck down and quietly move to a new position behind these bushes. I roll a stealth check of 11. All of these enemies have a Passive Perception of 10. Great, I am now Hidden from all three enemies.
The enemies now cannot target me with an attack, so instead they each use an action to search for me. EnemyA rolls a 12. EnemyB rolls an 8. EnemyC rolls a 5. So . . . I am now discovered by EnemyA and lose my stealth roll against only that enemy? I am still Hidden from EnemyB and EnemyC . . . and, I guess I have an ongoing stealth roll of 11? Which exists only against EnemyB and EnemyC?
Next turn: I try to Hide again from EnemyA and roll a 5. So, against EnemyA I have a 5 which loses to his passive perception of 10 so I fail to Hide. This roll of 5 is now thrown out? But, I still also have another stealth roll ongoing of 11? Which stays in effect and keeps me Hidden from EnemyB and EnemyC?
Now, on their turns, EnemyA targets me and attacks at range. He misses. EnemyB and EnemyC cannot target me so they search instead. EnemyB rolls a 12 and EnemyC rolls a 3. Now, I am discovered by EnemyA and EnemyB but still Hidden from EnemyC with an ongoing stealth score of 11?
Next turn: I try to Hide again from EnemyA and EnemyB and roll a 15. So now I have a stealth roll of 15 against EnemyA and EnemyB . . . but I also have a stealth roll of 11 against EnemyC? Or is it 15? Why or why not?
Now, A and B fail their search attempts. C rolls a 13. Now what? I had a stealth score of 15 and also a stealth score of 11. Because the 11 is matched up with C . . . C now discovers me? Even though I just rolled a stealth of 15? You can see how what the stealth rolls are supposed to actually represent are starting to get lost here. So now I have a stealth roll of 15 vs A and B and I'm discovered by C.
Next turn: I try to Hide again from C and roll an 11. Success. So now I have a stealth roll of 15 against A and B and a stealth roll of 11 against C.
Now enemy D enters the room, searches the room, and rolls a 13. Now what? Did D discover me? Why? I have a stealth roll of 15 and also a stealth roll of 11, which was my latest roll. Which roll is used in the contest against D? What does the rule say?
Who knows?? Because the rules do not allow for ANY of this!!!
You roll for stealth. THAT check is used until you are discovered. Otherwise, you end up in situations like the above that can even get a lot more complicated. You could be managing 5 or 6 different stealth rolls or more pretty easily. What does that even mean?
This is why the entire rule is written and designed from the perspective of that stealth roll. It tells you exactly how and when that stealth roll expires -- which basically defines the duration of remaining Hidden. It is over-simplified, yes. But this simplification avoids a lot of problems.
There's no choice by the creature's use of Passive Perception; but it can choose to take the Search action and make an active Wisdom (Perception) check on the other hand.
And I haven't disputed that part, but it applies equally to allies and enemies because it also quite clearly only ever specifies creatures.
Except that's not what the rule says, firstly, it never mentions enemies, secondly, it never mentions that being discovered by a single creature means that you are no longer hidden from others, that's not how it works. You are discovered on an individual basis; just as you could be hidden from creatures without darkvision yet known to those that do have it etc.
If the allies can still see you then they don't need to discover you, because there is an explicit exception for that case in the rules. But if you hide where your allies can't see you, then you are also hidden from them as well, because they also don't know where you are. That's what hiding is.
And any creature that doesn't choose to search may either find you anyway due to passive perception, see you if they are able, or continue to not know where you are. The contest is not the only factor involved in hiding. Your allies can absolutely choose not to search for you, but that just means they either do not know where you are, or will only do so if they see you or their passive perception reveals you to them.
They absolutely can discover you, otherwise they don't know where you are if you hide when they can't see you. Discovery doesn't mean they have to expose you to everyone else, it just means that they have discovered you. It is fully possible to be hidden from some creatures and not others.
You are both hidden from enemies, but are visible to one another (no discovery required). If you were instead hiding in separate foxholes, and didn't see which the other chose, then you would be fully hidden from one another as well. If one of you peeks out of the foxhole to look for the other you roll Perception, and on success, you have spotted signs of your ally's presence, but you don't need to expose them to others if you don't want to.
No it doesn't, it says that creatures actively searching for you contest your Stealth check until they discover you, or you stop hiding, because in both cases no further checks are required (unless you Hide again). But that doesn't mean other creatures stop rolling checks if they haven't found you yet.
Being undiscovered and being hidden are not the same thing, the rules never say this, in fact they mention each separately. Just because one creature has discovered you does not mean all other creatures now magically know where you are; even if an enemy discovers you they must still somehow communicate your location to others before those others can act upon it, even a shout of "they're over here!" won't necessarily reveal you to all enemies depending upon positioning and timing, it just gives them knowledge of where to hurl attacks and area effects.
If you're hiding behind a couch, and one enemy hears you there, they can shout "he's behind the couch!" to their comrades. You're actually still hiding from the others, but they now know where to hurl attacks and area effects with a chance of hitting you. If you somehow sneak away to a different location while remaining hidden to them, they will be attacking in vain unless updated with your new position by the enemy that knows where you are (who will continue to know where you are until you Hide again).
I will grant that the rules could be clearer, but it's clear how they're intended to function because otherwise you're having to assume a level of psychic knowledge that the rules never tell you to.
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What?? This is not true.
There is an explicit example in Chapter 8: Adventuring -> Activity While Traveling.
However,
So, characters pretty much always have a choice. They can participate in the activity of Noticing Threats, or they can participate in some Other Activity instead. This applies directly to the question of contesting your Stealth against an ally's perception in combat. The ally simply is not going to participate in this. There is no reason to. They are on your side. There is no mechanical advantage during battle of discovering and potentially exposing my ally. There are better things to do with the action economy that actually lead to a higher percentage chance for a favorable outcome for the group (of allies). Whether or not my ally sees me does not affect whether or not I remain hidden from my enemies since my ally is not participating in any of the rules for hiding -- with respect to hiding, it's like the ally isn't even there.
False. It quite clearly specifies any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. Or, a creature who is attempting to passively notice threats where you qualify as a threat. Note that the phrase "notice you" is the same as in Chapter 8 (mentioned above) where passive perception is specifically used when "noticing hidden threats". This is not a coincidence. All of these rules work together.
What?? How many times must we quote the rule before people actually read it?
This says:
When you try to hide, you make a Stealth check. That check is contested by any creature that tries to discover you by finding or noticing you UNTIL YOU ARE DISCOVERED.
Mechanically, that check disappears from existence when you are discovered. In order to participate in a future contest, you'll need a new stealth check, by rule. To do that, you'll need to take the Hide action (again). When you don't have a stealth roll, you are not hidden.
So yes, it really does say that being discovered by a single creature means that you are no longer hidden from others. It's quoted above.
Secondly, the rule describes what happens when you try to Hide. You must roll for stealth in order to try. In order to actually be hidden and/or to remain hidden, you must actually win contests against creatures who are trying to discover you. The creatures who are trying to discover you in combat, which is a hostile action that you are attempting to prevent, are enemies by definition. Allies will not participate in this entire process. There is no reason for them to. There is no mechanical benefit for them to do so. They are on your side.
So yes, it really does mention enemies.
This is absolutely positively 100% NOT what the rule says.
"Until you are discovered . . . that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any [searching] creature . . . "
There is literally no way to interpret that in the way you have described above. It simply doesn't say that. Different words are used than what you've said.
Not until they discover you. Until any [searching] creature discovers you.
For the life of me I cannot understand why we can't all get together on what "until you are discovered," means. That is just baffling.
You mean, except for the part where the rule quite literally says:
"When you try to hide, make a . . . check. Until you are discovered . . . that check's total is contested . . . "?
No, this isn't quite true either. Hiding involves winning contests against creatures who are trying to discover you or notice you because you are a threat.
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Ok, I think I'm starting to understand why people are not getting this. Let's try it a different way . . .
Suppose you are transported to a different world where there are no other creatures. You are the only creature in the entire world. Now you duck down behind a bush. Are you hidden? From whom? What mechanical benefit are you hoping to achieve by ducking down behind the bush? In 5e, the main mechanical benefit of hiding is so that you can't be targeted by an attack. Who will attack you? You are the only creature in the world. Really, you are just hanging out behind a bush.
Now, all of your allies are transported to that world and you are reunited. You and your allies are the only creatures in the entire world. Your allies are excited because there are no threats so they lie down in their lawn chairs and soak up the sun, drinking some beers. Now you duck down behind a bush. Are you hidden? From whom? What mechanical benefit are you hoping to achieve by ducking down behind the bush? Are you worried that your allies will attack you and you are trying to make it so that you cannot be targeted by their attacks? Are your allies worried that you will attack them while they cannot see you? No. Your allies are lying on lawn chairs, soaking up the sun and drinking some beers. Trying to hide doesn't work because there is no contest to win. Really, you are just hanging out behind a bush.
I always thought of things like this as part of the cover rules.
If you have total cover from someone they can not see you even if an ally of their does see you from a different angle.
The whole " I yell there is an elf behind that tree" while in a forest of trees was just ,lets say, odd. Now everyone is just looking at trees. If your close enough together to point out exactly what tree you might have a point but just a verbal description of a specific place gets complicated and normally takes more then 6 seconds.
By implementing the "if one sees him they all do rule" you pretty much nerf the hide rule in any situation.
You're quoting traveling rules when the thread is about using Stealth in combat. Travel rules have specific rules that trump general rules with ranks and tasks turning their Passive Perception off in a sense, so that everyone can contribute during travel according to where they are and what they do. But again if you are doing another task, you have no choice to use or not use your passive Perception.
This is very different than what we are talking about here., if in combat you hide,, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you (ally or enemy), the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score. There's no choice but during traveling it just wouldn't do so if the creature's rank or task doesn't allow it.
A Passive check can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster. If it was a choice to use it, it wouldn't be a secret ;)
Sometimes it's important to be aware of how various rules throughout the text interact because in order to save space the text will not repeat itself in every section where a concept is used. For example, the concept of Hiding and how it works is spread out across many different rules in multiple chapters. We need to know about Vision and Light, Obscured areas, rules for Cover, the Hide action, the general rules for Hiding and so on to get the full picture.
What you are describing with respect to Passive Perception is not how the skill is meant to be used. The skills of Stealth and Perception are described elsewhere and how to use them is explained elsewhere -- that information is assumed to already be known when we read the Rules for Hiding -- it will not be spelled out again in that portion of the text.
For information about the skills we have to go back to Chapter 7 -> Using Each Ability.
and
Every example given has to do with staying aware and looking out for danger, gathering intelligence about our enemies, or keeping a look out for important environmental information such as secret doors and traps. This is not meant to be a skill to keep track of our allies or to notice details that are irrelevant to the adventure.
We don't take a step and say "Because of your passive perception you see a cloud drift across the sky" and then another step and "because of your passive perception you see a clump of grass growing in the middle of the dirt path" and then another step and "because of your passive perception you hear the wind gently rustling the leaves of the nearby trees" and so on.
You don't say "you are walking north in a single file and reach an intersection. Your companion in the front continues to the east. You momentarily lose sight of him as he turns the corner -- but, oh, because of your passive perception you can still hear his footsteps for a couple of seconds until you also turn the corner".
Passive perception is not meant to be used in any of these ways. It's mainly about staying aware of danger. Your allies are not dangerous. They are on your side.
Likewise, Stealth is described like this:
All of these activities in these examples are adversarial. Yes, it says that you might sneak up on "someone" but in context they are talking about sneaking up on an enemy. Just read the whole thing in context. Conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away or sneak up on someone. They are not talking about hiding from allies or sneaking up on allies. That is not how the skill is meant to be used. You don't hide from your allies. They are on your side.
This is why when you now flip to the Rules for Hiding and read something like how you are trying to remain undiscovered by any creature who is trying to find you -- we can go ahead and apply what the skill is actually doing. When we are being stealthy, it means something specific. We are trying to gain a tactical, mechanical advantage. We don't sneak around the campfire while our allies are busy eating dinner. You're not really doing anything -- you're just sort of tiptoeing around. Your allies pose no danger so you are not really hiding or sneaking. You are just being quiet.
As an example, let's say we are traveling with our allies and one of them gets upset about something. We would not use the Animal Handling skill to try to calm them down. This is because we can go back to that same section and read about what Animal Handling is meant to be used for. It's a specific skill that does something in particular and is used in a particular way -- otherwise you are not really doing the skill. If the skill doesn't apply to the situation, you don't use it.
If we are sitting around a campfire with our allies and doing some normal, cooperative roleplaying, the DM does not interject with something like "Ok, because of your passive insight, you know that he just told the truth just now." That's not how the skill is meant to be used.
When we try to Hide in combat, it should be somewhat obvious that the intent is to avoid detection from our enemies. That is because the actual, mechanical benefit of being hidden is that you cannot be targeted by an attack. This does not apply to allies -- an ally is not going to attack you, by definition. Likewise, an ally is not going to try to stay aware for signs of his allies. They are staying aware for danger.
So, your allies do not "break your stealth". But enemies do. This is because, by rule, your stealth roll remains in effect until you are discovered.
This isn't even remotely true; the rule literally states right there in the quotes you post:
You do not choose to make passive checks, that is literally the exact opposite of what passive checks are normally used for. There is no "attempting to notice passively", that's not a thing, and never has been.
I'm not even going to bother picking apart the rest as it's clearly a waste of everybody's time; we can't help if you refuse to accept what is written in the rules and keep inventing new things that they simply do not say.
If you want to know how the rules work, forget your preconceptions and just sit and read only what they say. They're far from the best rules in the game (in fact I've complained multiple times the rules for stealth and hiding are among the worst in 5e, thrown scattershot across multiple sections with no good examples of how to run it). But that doesn't change the fact that collectively those rules do say something, and it's what everyone else has been trying to tell you it says. I'm sorry to be blunt about it, but there's a reason you're the lone voice here.
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Oh, you mean except for this part?
Yeah, I guess you're right. I guess it just says "any creature". Darn, you got me.
Oh, you mean except for this?
However,
Yeah, I guess you're right. Darn.
You sure are right about that -- I agree completely.
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Look, if you guys want to play in a game where a halfling cannot use its ability and group stealth is not possible because allies break stealth, go knock yourselves out I guess. That doesn't sound very fun to me but everyone has fun in their own way.
If you want to play in a game where every turn of every round of combat we have to update potentially hundreds of entries of a giant spreadsheet of who is still hidden from whom in both directions then you can go have fun with that as well. As long as the DM and all of the players are on the same page you can play however you want.
This is looking pretty bad for you now. Several times in a row both the active and passive clauses were included together and now you complain that I was talking about only active checks. All you have to do is scroll up. Wow.
Please go back and review the conversation. All relevant aspects of this rule have been summarized many many times now.
I know that you guys keep reading "Until you are discovered" and you desperately want the rule to say something more than that. But every time that you read it the words remain the same. I've explained what it means, how it works, how certain basic assumptions are not spelled out since they appear elsewhere, why the designers likely wrote it this way, and on and on. I use quotes, I speak in logic and facts. You seem to disagree with all of that but your best argument seems to be "but it doesn't make sense that it would be that way". While that may or may not be true, that doesn't change the rule as written.
At this point in the thread, I think it's worth going over what the Hide action and Hiding rules actually say in their entirety, because we've now had multiple pages of quoting only little pieces and it's leading to weird assumptions and misunderstandings.
The core of the stealth and hiding rules consists of essentially three parts:
Hiding
This is all of the important parts for how hiding works mechanically:
So creatures are either aware of "signs of your presence" or they're not; if a creature wants to know where you are it must actively check, if a creature doesn't care where you are, or isn't searching, it may still passively know where you are. If a creature can see you, it doesn't need to do any of this.
Unseen Attackers and Targets
This tells us what the benefit of hiding is in combat, and also that attacking reveals our location. It's a little confusing in that it implies that being hidden means you're unseen (so should be an unseen attacker) but this is made less certain by the Hiding rule itself:
On this basis it's fair to assume that being hidden doesn't automatically mean you are an unseen attacker in all cases; you must either remain unseen throughout the attack (e.g- attacking from darkness) or be able to argue that your enemy is distracted, e.g- if a creature is fighting an enemy to its front, it won't see you emerging from cover behind it, if you attack from above it may not look up in time to see you etc.
Hit or miss, you have revealed your location to any creatures that can now see or hear you, saw or heard your attack etc. (they may not see you in the darkness, but if an arrow came from it they can be sure there's an archer in there). Non-attacks can also reveal you if they make sound or otherwise reveal your presence.
Actions in Combat
Specifically the Hide and Search actions:
Essentially these are just to tell us how the action economy of hiding and searching work during combat, since you don't really worry about that out of combat; most characters need to use their action to hide or to search (though some are able to do so as bonus actions, legendary actions etc.).
Anyone that doesn't want to spend an action to search, or isn't trying to search, may still find a hidden creature using their passive perception as detailed in the Hiding rules.
Additional Reference
The rules for Contested Checks and Passive Checks also apply, but we don't really need to refer to passive checks because the Hiding rule reiterates the parts we need (and gives an example), and we don't really need to refer to Contests either because the Hiding rule says what to do.
It's worth noting that draws in the case of Stealth vs. Perception contests mean that you have failed to hide (or remain hidden) from the creature that rolled the perception check, as that contest is only between them and you. It would have been nice if the Hiding rules clarified this as some people might interpret it differently (being detected is a new result, so remaining hidden is "no change") but if we think of the Stealth check as setting a DC value, then equalling or beating it is a success (discover the hidden creature).
The Vision and Light section is also useful for considering where a character might be able to remain hidden, though it mostly boils down to "if you can't see into it easily, then someone can hide in it".
This should be the stealth rules as complete and as clear as I can summarise them, and I think it's useful to have all the important bits together as the pieces being scattered all over the place is a big part of what leads to confusion and misinformation. The rules themselves are actually fairly simple, and only say what they say, though it uses some terms unhelpfully.
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The rule was quoted correctly and this is actually a pretty decent summary, but it is incomplete. The major omission here is the description of how long you remain hidden. According to the rules, as quoted above this summary, you will remain hidden as long as that stealth check from the first bullet point continues to win contests against any creature who actively searches for you or has a chance to notice you. That process continues "until you are discovered or you stop hiding". At that point, that stealth check from the first bullet point is no longer used in any future contests. Therefore, at that point, you are no longer hidden.
I have two other complaints about the above summary, based on the above point about the duration of hiding as specified in the rule.
First, hiding from some creatures while others can see you clearly should not work based on how the rule is written. This is because the creature who can see you clearly will instantly discover you which instantly ends the duration of hiding.
Secondly, I would rule that this should not apply to allies and therefore the second bullet point should not apply to allies either. Otherwise, group stealth doesn't work. Although not spelled out directly in the rule, the rationale that skills such as stealth and perception should only apply to enemies in combat is twofold: First, the description of the skills themselves and when and how they should be used, which appears in Chapter 7 -> Using Each Ability, strongly suggests this. We do not use skills in situations where they do not apply. The second reason is because the advantage of being Hidden in combat is that you cannot be targeted by an attack. This just does not apply to allies, so it is enough to just say that the ally cannot see or hear his other ally. Whether or not you decide to rule that an ally might be technically Hidden from another ally or not, the main point is that an ally should not break another ally's stealth in the same way that an enemy does when it "discovers you". Because of that, it's most correct to assume that you don't Hide from your allies and your allies do not discover you because the skills involved do not apply to that situation.
This is a common misconception. Being Hidden is different from being an Unseen Attacker or Target. The benefits described in Unseen Attackers and Targets (generally) apply to all unseen attackers and targets -- not just those which are Hidden.
The actual confusing part with this is in the actual Hide action description where it says "If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this section".
What happened here is that for some reason the authors combined the explanations for the benefits of Hiding and the benefits of being an Unseen Attacker or Target into the same section, which is called Unseen Attackers and Targets. The only part within that section that actually applies to Hidden creatures is this:
So, if you are targeting a creature that you can hear but not see then you are attacking an Unseen Target (NOT a Hidden Target) in which case you just have disadvantage on the attack. If instead you are attacking a Hidden creature then you must guess the target's location and if you are wrong you automatically miss.
This is the ONLY mechanical benefit of being Hidden in combat. If YOU are attacking another creature, it does not matter if you are Hidden or just Unseen -- an Unseen attacker gets advantage on the attack.
Yes! This is pretty much correct. Although, in my opinion if you did NOT remain unseen throughout the attack then you have "come out of hiding" and/or you "stopped hiding". This means that you are not actually Hidden during this attack -- you are no longer Hidden (remember, the duration of Hiding specified in the rules for Hiding states that you remain Hidden "Until you are discovered or you stop Hiding").
Conversely, if you are an Unseen Attacker, it does not automatically mean that you are Hidden. The benefit while attacking comes from being Unseen, not from being Hidden.
I have a complaint with this interpretation as well. It is along the same theme as the overall argument in this thread about the Rules for Hiding.
If we carefully read the section Unseen Attackers and Targets, it says quite simply "when you make an attack, you give away your location". It does NOT say that you give away your location to this creature or that creature but not those creatures over there. No. Your location is given away, by rule. You are no longer Hidden.
Unfortunately, this is also incorrect information. According to the rules for contests, we have this:
So, if a creature is already Hidden then a tie results in the creature remaining Hidden. But, if we began in a situation where the creature was already discovered but is now attempting to Hide while there are creatures nearby who can immediately contest that effort, then a tie results in a failure to Hide.
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I do wholeheartedly agree with you that all of this should have been better consolidated and organized and generally written more clearly. Hopefully in a future version of the game these rules will be improved.
Your wrong and I am glad my DM does not play your way.
We can not see every enemy and we expect the same from them. We use minis and line of sight plays a big part in our combats. Without line of sight they are still hidden from you. Even if everyone else sees them you do not.
You could area effect that target but that is all.
Exact communication in any combat is far far harder than you seem to think.
Do not nerf characters or creatures because you can not be bothered with a little extra work that would simply make things better and more realistic.
Based on your comments it seems like you don't quite understand what I've been saying.
If you use minis in your games then a really good way to do it is that if a monster successfully hides, the DM could remove that mini from the map completely. The DM then secretly keeps track of that monster's location until it is discovered. When that monster is discovered, the DM simply places that mini back onto the map. This does not impact things like full cover due to line of sight or anything.
If you think about it, this is very likely EXACTLY the reason (or one of the big reasons) why the designers of the game decided to simplify this rule in this way. As a DM, how can you possibly remove a mini from the game board for SOME of the players, but not for ALL of the players? That would be really difficult. Think about it.
You just don’t metagame. It’s not that difficult. If you have a board it’d be pretty easy to see which people do and do not have line of sight of each other, and if in doubt ask your DM. Done.
As for your other points about enemies magically discovering people, why would you use that as a rule? Sure, it might be the RAW (I don’t think so), but it makes literally no sense whatsoever. Case in point - I’m invisible. I’m fighting a creature with truesight and two creatures without. Just because I’m not hidden from the creature with truesight doesn’t mean I’m not hidden from the creatures without. I’m still hidden from them. Suggesting otherwise seems really odd, IMO.
Second example. The party is fighting a group of goblins in some kind of maze-like structure, maybe a cellar or a sewer. I hide in a dead end. A goblin discovers me. Why does every other goblin, most of which would be fighting other party members, and who likely can’t even see the discovering goblin, telepathically know where I am? It seems ridiculous to me. Regardless of what the RAW is, ruling it that way seems very rules-for-the-sake-of-rules.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
It's not the RAW; how you're running this is the correct way to do-so according to the rules themselves. At no point do the Hiding rules ever say that being discovered by one creature means that all creatures across all timelines of every multiverse now also know where you are, because that clearly would be ridiculous and all but impossible to run. The fact that being discovered and no longer hiding are separate makes it clear these are not the same.
The hiding rules further clarify this, because "you can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly", but nowhere does it say that being seen prevents you from trying to hide, only that you can't hide from (be hidden from) a creature that can see you, individually. The wording is "you can't hide from a creature that can see you" not "you can't hide if a creature can see you", and this is clearly for good reason, because to treat it as the latter means hiding becomes unnecessarily difficult, or requires mental gymnastics and invented extra wording about allies and neutral parties being treated differently (despite no wording to that effect) for it to function at all, and that introduces additional problems. The rules say what they say.
I think it's also worth pointing out that trying to hide and being hidden are not the same thing; trying to hide (as the rules state it) is the attempt to hide, while being hidden is the result you are hoping for. The use of "try to hide" is very clearly intentional, because it clarifies the somewhat loose definition of "hiding" in english (which could mean both trying to hide, and being hidden, which gets confusing). Trying to hide and being hidden in the rules are not a conditions like being poisoned, it's not something you gain on a success then lose on failure; if that's how it was intended to be run then that's what the rules would say.
Hiding successfully means you are hidden from creature(s) that have yet to discover you (can't see you when you hide, and whose passive perception you have beaten with your Stealth check). When a creature discovers you, the creature that discovered you stops rolling checks to do-so, and is now aware of "signs of your presence". This is how discovering things works; if I find money in the street, I have discovered it, but nobody knows I have done so unless I tell them about it. Individuals make discoveries, they can only become a group discovery once shared, which is not a required step and doesn't happen automagically.
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Hi Redpelt,
This seems to be similar confusion as another recent poster. Simply looking to see who has line of sight against whom is NOT the same as knowing who is Hidden from whom. These are two different things. Remaining Hidden requires staying unseen and unheard in an unknown location such that you cannot be targeted by an attack -- it requires a deliberate action to become Hidden beyond just simple re-positioning on the battlefield. To remain Hidden, you must continue to win contests against creatures who might discover or notice you. Being Unseen (line of sight, etc) gains only a subset of the benefits of being Hidden.
So again, you are confusing the rules. Being invisible does NOT make you Hidden. This is actually spelled out very clearly in the rules. There is a whole section within the Rules for Hiding dedicated to this concept where it says:
This means that an invisible creature actually has to take the Hide action and win contests vs perception in order to remain Hidden just like anybody else.
So, in this example if the invisible creature is standing in an open room doing battle against 3 other creatures, he is NOT Hidden. However, because he has the "Invisible" condition, he is Unseen, which grants him advantage while attacking and his opponents have disadvantage when they try to attack. Well, as it turns out one of those opponents has "Truesight". So THAT opponent does not have disadvantage when attacking and when the invisible creature attacks that creature who has Truesight, he does not have advantage on that attack. BUT, advantage and disadvantage benefits still DO apply against the other two opponents. All of that has to do with being Unseen, NOT Hidden.
If that invisible creature now attempts to Hide, he will simply fail because the creature with Truesight can see him clearly. If the Invisible creature tried to Hide before these 3 creatures entered the room, he would expect to have to win some contests to remain Hidden. However, it turns out that one of these opponents has Truesight and so he is automatically discovered since he can see him clearly. At that point the invisible creature is no longer Hidden for the upcoming battle. However, he is still Unseen by two of his three opponents.
I agree that the rule is overly simplified and that we can craft scenarios which make it less than ideal to apply this rule. At some point it will be up to the DM to decide when a rule is applicable to a situation, just like every other rule in the game.
In the extreme, we can question whether or not a creature that exists on the other side of the planet becomes aware of the Hidden creature's location when it is discovered. To me, these rules do not apply to that situation. We are talking about the context of a battle, usually between one group of allies vs one group of enemies. If the party had decided to split up and attack a very large army camp from two different flanks and these groups are miles and miles apart from each other -- then we need to change how we are applying the rules. Even if for some reason we are resolving this situation at the same time, turn by turn and round by round (although it's hard to think of a reason why we would do this) for all intents and purposes these two groups are not participating in the same battle and so some of these rules do not apply. These rules all do exist but obviously the DM has to actually run the game.
Your first example is a much better example of when to apply the rules for Hiding as written. In a similar scenario, I walk through a room shoulder to shoulder with two of my allies. One of my allies notices an enemy Hiding behind a curtain against the wall. Combat ensues and if it is my turn I can now attack and directly target that enemy. My passive perception was not high enough to hear that enemy and I was not able to notice the subtle shift in the curtain's position while the enemy was breathing on it. But my ally did notice these things and was able to discover the enemy and its location is now known. The enemy is no longer Hidden and I can now target that enemy with an attack as normal. NOTE: I still cannot SEE that enemy -- it is behind a curtain. So, if I attack I have disadvantage on that attack as per the rules for Unseen Targets. The only difference is that I know where the enemy is (because it has been discovered and is therefore no longer Hidden) and I can target it with my attack.
Those are the sorts of situations where we apply the rules for Hiding. Pretty much anything in the context of a battle should work this way.
I really do appreciate a poster bring up the possibility of playing with minis because that makes this whole discussion pretty much a slam dunk. If we are talking about the context of a battle within a small enough space such that the Hidden creature in question exists somewhere on this battle map and the enemies in question also exist somewhere on this battle map, then the Rule for Hiding should be applied, even though it will be an over-simplification in some cases. This allows the DM to remove the mini of a Hidden creature and then replace it onto the map when it is discovered. Simple. Fast. Keeps the game moving. NOT a perfect battle simulation. A simplified rule that works well in most cases.
The rule itself has been quoted many times in this thread now and it directly contradicts what you are saying here. First, as discussed above, we do not apply the rule to all creatures across all timelines of every multiverse because those creatures are not participating in the current combat. We only apply rules to situations where they are applicable. However, the rule does clearly state that when you are discovered you are no longer Hiding, as has been mentioned probably over a dozen times now.
I have absolutely no idea how you can claim that "being discovered and no longer hiding are separate" when the rule literally says:
How are these separate? They are listed together! Baffling.
It is true that this portion of the rule is phrased like that. But we have to take this in context with the rest of the rule because each and every sentence and paragraph is not going to repeat and spell out the same concepts over and over again. They are trying to explain another, related concept after having already explained the mechanics for Hiding. Yes, we cannot hide from a creature that can see you clearly. However, we remain Hidden "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding". So, trying to Hide while a creature can see you simply will not work. Your stealth roll immediately becomes inactive since it only remains active "until you are discovered or you stop hiding", by rule.
For example, you duck down behind some crates. My ally on the other side of the room cannot see you. But I am literally standing over you, in melee range, watching you do this. You remain perfectly quiet and still and you look up at me and put your finger to your lips and whisper, "Shhh, I am trying to Hide from your ally!" My response in many cases is to smash you over the head with my mace, thereby creating a ton of noise which should break your stealth anyway. This sort of noise when you are discovered is implied by how the rule is written and designed. You will not remain perfectly quiet and still while an enemy is about to smash your head with a mace. If you insist on doing this, I would probably declare the attack to be an auto-hit and an auto-crit since you are doing something so ridiculous. And once that happens the noise from this skirmish will break your stealth anyway.
Or, we can simply follow the rules and Hide "until you are discovered or you stop hiding".
While all of this would appear to make logical sense, it is NOT what the rule says. The rule is written from the point of view of your stealth check, not from the point of view of the various perception checks.
"Until you are discovered . . . that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any [searching] creature . . . "
"That check" refers to your stealth roll. The rule is describing the duration of how long your stealth roll is good for. The value of your stealth roll represents how well Hidden you are. You continue to use this same value for all future contests until you are discovered. When you are discovered, that is the end of using that stealth check. You must take the Hide action again if you want a new stealth check.
I see here this long discussion and it quite interests me as the rules for hiding were always a bit unclear to me too. I think that we all somehow agree on the fact, that rules for hiding are not very well written and are ambiguous.
To me, this argument with you, up2ng, is really only about understanding of one word in one sentence.
"Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."
- You intepret the word "discovered" universally in a sense, that being discovered by one creature implies you are discovered by all.
- Everybody else thinks, that it means discovered only by that one particular creature, who searches (and succeeds).
Therefore this argument is not so much about RAW, but more about RAI. How each of us interpret the rules, and the discussion is, what might be the intentions of those rules.
Even though I understand your interpretation and I see that this sentence really can mean what you propose, I do not agree with this interpetation. To me this interpretation would cause so much weird behavior and situations in the game.
You also provide a reason for this, and that is simplification instead of realism - by your words to avoid having spreadsheets to track who is hidden from whom. But this is just assumption that such "simplification" was really the developers intention.
I think that in real game you rarely have someone hidden. It is not like you have twenty creatures each round taking hide action. Normally you have just few creatures in combat and occasionaly someone is taking hide action. Then it is not so much trouble to keep track of this. So, such simplification is not really necessary.
But there are many problems with your interpretation.
In order for it to work as you intend, you need to distinguish who is ally and who is enemy, and then claim, that allies do not try to discover hidden ally (by making Perception checks - active or passive), because "they are on your side". But there are many situations, where being hidden from your allies makes huge difference. And the fact that they would need to make Perception check does not necessarily make them enemies or traitors.
Here is an example situation: I am invisible standing in the middle of meadow. There are enemies and allies. I use Hide action and move few feet. Lets say I roll high and beat everyones passive Perception. I am hidden. Then, my ally wants to send fireball on enemies, but he does not want to hit me.
If your propsal would be true, my ally automatically knows where I am and can place the fireball ideally not to hit me. And my other ally, who wants to heal me with Cure Wounds can also do so easily as she is aware of my location, she can move towards me and touch me. This is just wrong.
Or other option could be that DM asks those allies to first Search for me, having them roll Perception. But if that happens, by your definition, just this act of succesful Search would discover me also for all enemies, because I would become discovered and therefore no longer hidden. My allies discovered me, but my enemies now know where I am also. It does not make any sense.
Another problem would be already mentioned halflings trait, where they can Hide behind creature. With this interpretation they practically can hide only behind allies. If they try to hide behind enemy, that enemy sees him and therefore reveals the location to everybody.
I also see the problem with the logic of how all enemies would pass the information about the location where I am hiding. If one enemy discovers me (either by seeing me clearly or succesfully passing Perception check), but has no way of communicating it to his friends, it makes no sense that suddenly all know where I am. What if we are fighting group of mindless oozes? One of the oozes discovers me. How it can suddenly tell all the other oozes?
To summarize, I understand your interpretation of these rules, but I do not agree with it. It brings more trouble than it is solving (only somewhat simplifies the tracking).
I would rather have more realistic hiding rules applicable for most of normal encounters, than simplified rules which make sense only in very specific encounter where a lot of hiding happens.
At our tables we seriously discourage meta gaming.
Even to the point of taking the hit in combat because we did not know the location of an ally or an enemy. Hidden is hidden from everyone not in direct and clear sight of you.
If you have too just put a little "hidden: marker on the mini to make sure the next guy has to make that perception check, just do it.
Your the only guy in the world in the last 30 years to make your argument. You have not found the games only flaw or even a flaw at all. If it was intended to go your way it would have been clarified years ago.
Aasimar11, you bring up a bunch of good points. I agree that this simplification is not ideal in some situations.
But, in my opinion, the other interpretation has many problems as well.
Tell me how you would deal with this example:
I am in combat against 3 enemies -- these are EnemyA, EnemyB and EnemyC. I run behind a row of bushes, duck down and quietly move to a new position behind these bushes. I roll a stealth check of 11. All of these enemies have a Passive Perception of 10. Great, I am now Hidden from all three enemies.
The enemies now cannot target me with an attack, so instead they each use an action to search for me. EnemyA rolls a 12. EnemyB rolls an 8. EnemyC rolls a 5. So . . . I am now discovered by EnemyA and lose my stealth roll against only that enemy? I am still Hidden from EnemyB and EnemyC . . . and, I guess I have an ongoing stealth roll of 11? Which exists only against EnemyB and EnemyC?
Next turn: I try to Hide again from EnemyA and roll a 5. So, against EnemyA I have a 5 which loses to his passive perception of 10 so I fail to Hide. This roll of 5 is now thrown out? But, I still also have another stealth roll ongoing of 11? Which stays in effect and keeps me Hidden from EnemyB and EnemyC?
Now, on their turns, EnemyA targets me and attacks at range. He misses. EnemyB and EnemyC cannot target me so they search instead. EnemyB rolls a 12 and EnemyC rolls a 3. Now, I am discovered by EnemyA and EnemyB but still Hidden from EnemyC with an ongoing stealth score of 11?
Next turn: I try to Hide again from EnemyA and EnemyB and roll a 15. So now I have a stealth roll of 15 against EnemyA and EnemyB . . . but I also have a stealth roll of 11 against EnemyC? Or is it 15? Why or why not?
Now, A and B fail their search attempts. C rolls a 13. Now what? I had a stealth score of 15 and also a stealth score of 11. Because the 11 is matched up with C . . . C now discovers me? Even though I just rolled a stealth of 15? You can see how what the stealth rolls are supposed to actually represent are starting to get lost here. So now I have a stealth roll of 15 vs A and B and I'm discovered by C.
Next turn: I try to Hide again from C and roll an 11. Success. So now I have a stealth roll of 15 against A and B and a stealth roll of 11 against C.
Now enemy D enters the room, searches the room, and rolls a 13. Now what? Did D discover me? Why? I have a stealth roll of 15 and also a stealth roll of 11, which was my latest roll. Which roll is used in the contest against D? What does the rule say?
Who knows?? Because the rules do not allow for ANY of this!!!
You roll for stealth. THAT check is used until you are discovered. Otherwise, you end up in situations like the above that can even get a lot more complicated. You could be managing 5 or 6 different stealth rolls or more pretty easily. What does that even mean?
This is why the entire rule is written and designed from the perspective of that stealth roll. It tells you exactly how and when that stealth roll expires -- which basically defines the duration of remaining Hidden. It is over-simplified, yes. But this simplification avoids a lot of problems.
You stop hiding if you try to hide again and make a new Dexterity (Stealth) check. It's one check at a time.