Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
What about that is homebrew? A sorcerer using a quickened spell, a cantrip, and a class feature that they have -- all while following the bonus action casting rules -- seems to all be part of the rules.
I'm saying there is a narrow number of combinations of synergies/combos that work off Cantrip Action cast plus Bonus Action Level spell cast. But there are a ton if you allow bonus action cantrips and levelled spell action casts. Essentially: "Yeah that is a cool wacky combo. If you homebrew there are a ton of other wacky combos"
Other than being against the rules, how is that any different from casting a cantrip as an action then quickening a leveled spell?
Like I've said, power-wise it is basically the same thing. I always homebrew that it is OK to do in my games but I know that I am specifically going against RAW. It is perfectly balanced, the number of bonus action cantrips is super tiny anyway, a handful at most. It doesn't break anything to let someone cast like a Grave Cleric's BA spare the dying and then a normal spell. The whole "can't cast BA cantrip + leveled action spell" thing seems just like an artifact and bad rule structuring and not a conscious power balance decision anyway.
Had a player using Magic Stone + Catapult to create projectiles for the spell that could bypass non-magic weapon DR. We were already well into homebrew territory but thematically the flavor worked and it wasn't OP or anything.
I assume DR is damage resistance.
Catapult (being a spell and a save) already ignores resistance to attacks from non-magic weapons.
Disagree.
Going to bold the part you ignored and are now unnecessarily arguing about.
The only BA cantrips I know of are the aforementioned Grave Cleric's Spare the Dying, Shillelagh, and Magic Stone. Of the 3, only Magic Stone could really be considered OP to allow a leveled Action spell along side it. "Here three teammates, have a pretty good ranged spell attack while I cast Call Lightning."
Had a player using Magic Stone + Catapult to create projectiles for the spell that could bypass non-magic weapon DR. We were already well into homebrew territory but thematically the flavor worked and it wasn't OP or anything.
I assume DR is damage resistance.
Catapult (being a spell and a save) already ignores resistance to attacks from non-magic weapons.
Disagree.
Going to bold the part you ignored and are now unnecessarily arguing about.
So you disagree with the rules, on the grounds that you were already using unspecified house rules that made it necessary?
So putting aside your house rule reasons for needing more house rules, how does that relate to the Rules as Written being discussed in this thread?
Had a player using Magic Stone + Catapult to create projectiles for the spell that could bypass non-magic weapon DR. We were already well into homebrew territory but thematically the flavor worked and it wasn't OP or anything.
I assume DR is damage resistance.
Catapult (being a spell and a save) already ignores resistance to attacks from non-magic weapons.
Disagree.
Going to bold the part you ignored and are now unnecessarily arguing about.
So you disagree with the rules, on the grounds that you were already using unspecified house rules that made it necessary?
So putting aside your house rule reasons for needing more house rules, how does that relate to the Rules as Written being discussed in this thread?
I was directly asked for example? Didn't realize answering was going to upset you. Chill. People are allowed to homebrew in their games. You don't need to go into attack-dog mode about it.
In a campaign I ran, I had a sorcerer who would quicken the cantrip and then cast a leveled spell. For the most part, I didn't say anything because it's just a matter of semantics (In my mind, I retroactively applied the quickened spell to the leveled spell rather than the cantrip and everything is a wash, right? No reason to interrupt the flow of the game.) The only issue came when he would try to apply metamagic to the leveled spell because then it becomes a problem from a function standpoint. It only happened twice, and the second time was a pretty important situation, so I had to explain why he couldn't do it and also why I had never spoken up about it prior.
In a campaign I ran, I had a sorcerer who would quicken the cantrip and then cast a leveled spell. For the most part, I didn't say anything because it's just a matter of semantics (In my mind, I retroactively applied the quickened spell to the leveled spell rather than the cantrip and everything is a wash, right? No reason to interrupt the flow of the game.) The only issue came when he would try to apply metamagic to the leveled spell because then it becomes a problem from a function standpoint. It only happened twice, and the second time was a pretty important situation, so I had to explain why he couldn't do it and also why I had never spoken up about it prior.
Indeed. Requiring sorcerers to quicken the leveled spell rather than the cantrip, which is what the RAW does, means only the cantrip can have other metamagics applied to it. A currently illegal combo is quickened Mind Sliver + heightened Banishment, and heightened Mind Sliver + quickened Banishment is not equivalent.
In a campaign I ran, I had a sorcerer who would quicken the cantrip and then cast a leveled spell. For the most part, I didn't say anything because it's just a matter of semantics (In my mind, I retroactively applied the quickened spell to the leveled spell rather than the cantrip and everything is a wash, right? No reason to interrupt the flow of the game.) The only issue came when he would try to apply metamagic to the leveled spell because then it becomes a problem from a function standpoint. It only happened twice, and the second time was a pretty important situation, so I had to explain why he couldn't do it and also why I had never spoken up about it prior.
Indeed. Requiring sorcerers to quicken the leveled spell rather than the cantrip, which is what the RAW does, means only the cantrip can have other metamagics applied to it. A currently illegal combo is quickened Mind Sliver + heightened Banishment, and heightened Mind Sliver + quickened Banishment is not equivalent.
Especially since you could wait on seeing if the mind sliver succeeds before burning the sorcery points on heighten.
I don't see any rules problem with Sorcerers casting 2 spells in a turn, if any character with 2 levels of fighter can action surge and theoretically cast 2 spells in a turn using the level 2 fighter ability. Why should you limit a twig waver into carrying a sword for 2 levels when they are meant to specialize in magic ?
However, the Combining magical effects clause kicks in. In the PHB this example is used; if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spells benefit only once, he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.
Using the same methodology, a Sorcerer who casts quickened spell does indeed cast two spells, but the effects of those spells do not combine, instead the most potent effect, such as the highest bonus, from those castings applies.
In the case of Fireball, the spell with the highest damage would override the spell with the lower damage, but only one of the spell effects would apply. Its kinda like rolling advantage but for fireball.
Situationally, there are a number of reasons where you might want to allow your PC to burn an extra spell slot in order to gain advantage on their roll, but they will be balancing this against the greater use of that spell slot that they have sacrificed, particularly at higher levels when the available spell slots are still quite marginal, but they also have an alphastrike boost... but they need that spell slot for the next round... but alphastrike... but spell slot...
The Sage Advice on Action Surge spellcasting contradict the rules though. Jeremy Crawford originally answered correctly on twitter, but then answered the opposite in Sage Advice.
The rules as written:
Bonus Action Spell: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
The Twitter answer
@ghandi39: Can I misty step (bonus), fire bolt (action) and fireball (surge) on same turn? Or need action surge also be a cantrip?
@JeremyECrawford: In that situation, the Action Surge spell would also need to be a cantrip
@JeremyECrawford:The rule on bonus action spells pertains to your whole turn, not to a particular action (PH, 202).
The Sage Advice ruling:
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
Ooh, now can we talk about how Xanathar's Guide contradicts the PHB when discussing the number of cantrips you can cast on your round when you cast a bonus action spell? Or is XGtE the specific book that beats the general book? :)
Ooh, now can we talk about how Xanathar's Guide contradicts the PHB when discussing the number of cantrips you can cast on your round when you cast a bonus action spell? Or is XGtE the specific book that beats the general book? :)
PHB: You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
XGtE: If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.
How many cantrips? Depends on which book you read.
PHB: You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
XGtE: If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.
How many cantrips? Depends on which book you read.
But... but those are the same answer. 2. 1 with your bonus action and 1 with your action.
That's how I play it. Besides, it's more of an academic distinction than a practical one. An EK or a fighter multiclass is pretty unlikely to use their bonus action on a spell, then cast a cantrip, then action surge, and cast a second cantrip.
PHB: You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
XGtE: If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.
How many cantrips? Depends on which book you read.
Any number. PHB's wording limits you to a single cantripprobably due to action economy.
So if someone counterspells my fireball I can use a reaction to counter his counter. But if someone counterspells my shield of faith I'm stuck?
Unfortunatly, you can't cast a spell as a bonus action and one as reaction on the same turn.
Per RAW, sure. But it's an idiotic rule.
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Like I've said, power-wise it is basically the same thing. I always homebrew that it is OK to do in my games but I know that I am specifically going against RAW. It is perfectly balanced, the number of bonus action cantrips is super tiny anyway, a handful at most. It doesn't break anything to let someone cast like a Grave Cleric's BA spare the dying and then a normal spell. The whole "can't cast BA cantrip + leveled action spell" thing seems just like an artifact and bad rule structuring and not a conscious power balance decision anyway.
I got quotes!
Disagree.
Going to bold the part you ignored and are now unnecessarily arguing about.
I got quotes!
The only BA cantrips I know of are the aforementioned Grave Cleric's Spare the Dying, Shillelagh, and Magic Stone. Of the 3, only Magic Stone could really be considered OP to allow a leveled Action spell along side it. "Here three teammates, have a pretty good ranged spell attack while I cast Call Lightning."
So you disagree with the rules, on the grounds that you were already using unspecified house rules that made it necessary?
So putting aside your house rule reasons for needing more house rules, how does that relate to the Rules as Written being discussed in this thread?
I was directly asked for example? Didn't realize answering was going to upset you. Chill. People are allowed to homebrew in their games. You don't need to go into attack-dog mode about it.
I got quotes!
In a campaign I ran, I had a sorcerer who would quicken the cantrip and then cast a leveled spell. For the most part, I didn't say anything because it's just a matter of semantics (In my mind, I retroactively applied the quickened spell to the leveled spell rather than the cantrip and everything is a wash, right? No reason to interrupt the flow of the game.) The only issue came when he would try to apply metamagic to the leveled spell because then it becomes a problem from a function standpoint. It only happened twice, and the second time was a pretty important situation, so I had to explain why he couldn't do it and also why I had never spoken up about it prior.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Indeed. Requiring sorcerers to quicken the leveled spell rather than the cantrip, which is what the RAW does, means only the cantrip can have other metamagics applied to it. A currently illegal combo is quickened Mind Sliver + heightened Banishment, and heightened Mind Sliver + quickened Banishment is not equivalent.
Especially since you could wait on seeing if the mind sliver succeeds before burning the sorcery points on heighten.
I got quotes!
So if someone counterspells my fireball I can use a reaction to counter his counter. But if someone counterspells my shield of faith I'm stuck?
Indeed.
Unfortunatly, you can't cast a spell as a bonus action and one as reaction on the same turn.
I don't see any rules problem with Sorcerers casting 2 spells in a turn, if any character with 2 levels of fighter can action surge and theoretically cast 2 spells in a turn using the level 2 fighter ability. Why should you limit a twig waver into carrying a sword for 2 levels when they are meant to specialize in magic ?
However, the Combining magical effects clause kicks in. In the PHB this example is used; if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spells benefit only once, he or she doesn't get to roll two bonus dice.
Using the same methodology, a Sorcerer who casts quickened spell does indeed cast two spells, but the effects of those spells do not combine, instead the most potent effect, such as the highest bonus, from those castings applies.
In the case of Fireball, the spell with the highest damage would override the spell with the lower damage, but only one of the spell effects would apply. Its kinda like rolling advantage but for fireball.
Situationally, there are a number of reasons where you might want to allow your PC to burn an extra spell slot in order to gain advantage on their roll, but they will be balancing this against the greater use of that spell slot that they have sacrificed, particularly at higher levels when the available spell slots are still quite marginal, but they also have an alphastrike boost... but they need that spell slot for the next round... but alphastrike... but spell slot...
The Sage Advice on Action Surge spellcasting contradict the rules though. Jeremy Crawford originally answered correctly on twitter, but then answered the opposite in Sage Advice.
The rules as written:
Bonus Action Spell: You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
The Twitter answer
@ghandi39: Can I misty step (bonus), fire bolt (action) and fireball (surge) on same turn? Or need action surge also be a cantrip?
@JeremyECrawford: In that situation, the Action Surge spell would also need to be a cantrip
@JeremyECrawford:The rule on bonus action spells pertains to your whole turn, not to a particular action (PH, 202).
The Sage Advice ruling:
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn? There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn. If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
Ooh, now can we talk about how Xanathar's Guide contradicts the PHB when discussing the number of cantrips you can cast on your round when you cast a bonus action spell? Or is XGtE the specific book that beats the general book? :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
What do you mean?
PHB: You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
XGtE: If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action.
How many cantrips? Depends on which book you read.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
But... but those are the same answer. 2. 1 with your bonus action and 1 with your action.
That's how I play it. Besides, it's more of an academic distinction than a practical one. An EK or a fighter multiclass is pretty unlikely to use their bonus action on a spell, then cast a cantrip, then action surge, and cast a second cantrip.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Any number. PHB's wording limits you to a single cantripprobably due to action economy.
Per RAW, sure. But it's an idiotic rule.
Active characters:
Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)