In principle, no. It makes sense. But in practice, it seems that an overlarge number of Sorcerer players get the idea that Quickened Spell lets them cast two leveled spells every turn that they can pay the cost. Moreover, the extreme power discrepancy of this compared to other options doesn't register as a signal to check if they're correct, and a DM ruling it correctly tends to make them feel like they're being nerfed into uselessness. So... Something is wrong.
If the game was only played by really game-design-oriented thinkers like me and presumably you, there might be no problem keeping the rules neatly categorized like you suggest. But that's not the case. People are getting this rule wrong all the time. It would've been an easy fix.
Have to say that I find it interesting that Quickened has this issue. All spellcasters have BA spells yet it seems to be mainly Sorceresses that are having widespread issues with it.
It's just not as hard of a pill to swallow for most classes. While they do have BA spells, they're rare and usually a once-per-combat type of things. For example if a druid casts Healing Spirit, and you tell them they can't cast another leveled spell that turn, it's maybe a bit of a bummer but not that big of a deal.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, want to be able to launch two fireballs every turn. Sorcerer and Rogue really bring out the munchkin in people lol.
It's just not as hard of a pill to swallow for most classes. While they do have BA spells, they're rare and usually a once-per-combat type of things. For example if a druid casts Healing Spirit, and you tell them they can't cast another leveled spell that turn, it's maybe a bit of a bummer but not that big of a deal.
My Cleric would be a lot more effective if I could do a levelled spell together with my Healing Word, as would most Clerics, not sure I see the difference tbh.
If I were to want the rules to be clearer, I think I'd avoid the whole bonus-action-leveled-spell-action interaction misunderstanding entirely by simply re-writing Quickened Spell metamagic so it does:
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting, but only if you don't use your Action to Cast a Spell this turn, unless that spell is a Cantrip.
It is one of the most commonly misunderstood rules and people need it clarified over and over sometimes. A little bit of extra text here would have been good. Yeah yeah, rules bloat etc. But if something gets misunderstood ALL. THE. TIME. It is clear a few extra sentences or clarifying text, here, would have been wise. And, honestly, I don't think this clarification would have even added a single line if it was succinct enough.
The PHB isn't going to be re written so general rules with their own chapters are rewritten in every feature that uses that rule, so it is a bit of a moot discussion.
The PHB isn't going to be re written so general rules with their own chapters are rewritten in every feature that uses that rule, so it is a bit of a moot discussion.
Not really. Erratas do exist. Which do get applied to newer printings of the PHB.
The PHB isn't going to be re written so general rules with their own chapters are rewritten in every feature that uses that rule, so it is a bit of a moot discussion.
Not really. Erratas do exist. Which do get applied to newer printings of the PHB.
Erratas clarify. They don't add lots of redundant repetition. It's an amendment not a whole rewrite.
The PHB isn't going to be re written so general rules with their own chapters are rewritten in every feature that uses that rule, so it is a bit of a moot discussion.
I don't think anyone is asking for or suggesting this.... So, yes, that is a moot discussion.
The PHB isn't going to be re written so general rules with their own chapters are rewritten in every feature that uses that rule, so it is a bit of a moot discussion.
Not really. Erratas do exist. Which do get applied to newer printings of the PHB.
Erratas clarify. They don't add lots of redundant repetition. It's an amendment not a whole rewrite.
So, the clarification could be helpful in the case of Quicken metamagic.
Look at what it says:
When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting.
It is a bit muddled whether this is treated like a spell with an action casting time (because it is one) or as a spell with a bonus action cast time (we only treat it as such for this casting). So you'd need to then find the specific text phrasing in the cast time rules to suss out how it interacts with those rules and restrictions.
It isn't immediately obvious that this triggers special bonus action spell rules. You're not even casting a bonus action spell, it is an action cast spell. At least, normally it is.
Most people know how this works at this point in the edition's lifespan, sure, but I swear every time I play with someone newer to the game this specific particular issue comes up and grinds the game to a halt until we can explain it, pull up rules, or otherwise educate the newer player.
This feature changes the way your spell interacts with other features in a way that you may not understand and it should footnote that.
It's just not as hard of a pill to swallow for most classes. While they do have BA spells, they're rare and usually a once-per-combat type of things. For example if a druid casts Healing Spirit, and you tell them they can't cast another leveled spell that turn, it's maybe a bit of a bummer but not that big of a deal.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, want to be able to launch two fireballs every turn. Sorcerer and Rogue really bring out the munchkin in people lol.
I doubt that. Druids don't have access to Quickened Spell, and weren't given severely limited spell access in exchange for a promise that metamagic would make up for it. No need to call people munchkins for trying to explore their class features.
It's just not as hard of a pill to swallow for most classes. While they do have BA spells, they're rare and usually a once-per-combat type of things. For example if a druid casts Healing Spirit, and you tell them they can't cast another leveled spell that turn, it's maybe a bit of a bummer but not that big of a deal.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, want to be able to launch two fireballs every turn. Sorcerer and Rogue really bring out the munchkin in people lol.
I doubt that. Druids don't have access to Quickened Spell, and weren't given severely limited spell access in exchange for a promise that metamagic would make up for it. No need to call people munchkins for trying to explore their class features.
Yeah the issue is more that people don't always have bonus actions to freely use for stuff, so it is kind of a bummer that sometimes you do have a bonus action (BA spell) but if you do use it then your actual action gets jacked up and you can't do it anymore. That sucks.
Some classes have plenty of Bonus Actions they can reliably crank out all the time and others don't. And others have reliably good actions they can take that aren't spellcasting. If your only BA is BA spells, and your only good actions is also spells... it'll feel like you're kneecapped a bit compared to someone who has either BA spells and a fantastic non-spell option or someone with spells but also a fantastic non-spell BA available.
It really comes down to the mediocre implementation of bonus actions as a concept in the game in general.
IMO the Quickened Spell is useful because majority of spells for a Sorcerer are not a bonus action (misty step being the only OG for 5e). You can cast a high level single action spell as a bonus action and either preceded it or follow it up with a cantrip of one action. If used correctly a Sorcerer can make some amazing combos. Just figuring out the right combos is all the fun.
However, I do feel the Sorcerer is a little under down compared to some of the classes. Especially the OG 5e subclasses. Things have improved a little with TCoE but I feel there is a lot more range available from other spell casting classes. It is like a Sorcerer is a 3/4 caster in away with a tiny bit of flare available.
Again it isn't all about the battles. Half the fun is coming up with great ways to RP your PC.
But finally this is about the whole bonus action spell and cantrip ruling for Quickened Spell (but still is applicable for all spell casting). Which I can understand and agree that the rules aren't obvious but they should be learnt.
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
What about that is homebrew? A sorcerer using a quickened spell, a cantrip, and a class feature that they have -- all while following the bonus action casting rules -- seems to all be part of the rules.
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
What about that is homebrew? A sorcerer using a quickened spell, a cantrip, and a class feature that they have -- all while following the bonus action casting rules -- seems to all be part of the rules.
I'm saying there is a narrow number of combinations of synergies/combos that work off Cantrip Action cast plus Bonus Action Level spell cast. But there are a ton if you allow bonus action cantrips and levelled spell action casts. Essentially: "Yeah that is a cool wacky combo. If you homebrew there are a ton of other wacky combos"
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
What about that is homebrew? A sorcerer using a quickened spell, a cantrip, and a class feature that they have -- all while following the bonus action casting rules -- seems to all be part of the rules.
I'm saying there is a narrow number of combinations of synergies/combos that work off Cantrip Action cast plus Bonus Action Level spell cast. But there are a ton if you allow bonus action cantrips and levelled spell action casts. Essentially: "Yeah that is a cool wacky combo. If you homebrew there are a ton of other wacky combos"
I see what you're saying but the phrasing sure did it make it seem like you were implying the combo I put was homebrew. :P
Letting people cantrip as a bonus and levelled as action -- doesn't seem like it would make much difference, since you can use the bonus action before or after the action, and so you get to decide whether the cantrip or the levelled spell is cast first. But my brain is kinda fried today, so I'm probably missing something. Can you provide an example?
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
What about that is homebrew? A sorcerer using a quickened spell, a cantrip, and a class feature that they have -- all while following the bonus action casting rules -- seems to all be part of the rules.
I'm saying there is a narrow number of combinations of synergies/combos that work off Cantrip Action cast plus Bonus Action Level spell cast. But there are a ton if you allow bonus action cantrips and levelled spell action casts. Essentially: "Yeah that is a cool wacky combo. If you homebrew there are a ton of other wacky combos"
I see what you're saying but the phrasing sure did it make it seem like you were implying the combo I put was homebrew. :P
Letting people cantrip as a bonus and levelled as action -- doesn't seem like it would make much difference, since you can use the bonus action before or after the action, and so you get to decide whether the cantrip or the levelled spell is cast first. But my brain is kinda fried today, so I'm probably missing something. Can you provide an example?
Had a player using Magic Stone + Catapult to create projectiles for the spell that could bypass non-magic weapon DR. We were already well into homebrew territory but thematically the flavor worked and it wasn't OP or anything.
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
What about that is homebrew? A sorcerer using a quickened spell, a cantrip, and a class feature that they have -- all while following the bonus action casting rules -- seems to all be part of the rules.
I'm saying there is a narrow number of combinations of synergies/combos that work off Cantrip Action cast plus Bonus Action Level spell cast. But there are a ton if you allow bonus action cantrips and levelled spell action casts. Essentially: "Yeah that is a cool wacky combo. If you homebrew there are a ton of other wacky combos"
Other than being against the rules, how is that any different from casting a cantrip as an action then quickening a leveled spell?
Had a player using Magic Stone + Catapult to create projectiles for the spell that could bypass non-magic weapon DR. We were already well into homebrew territory but thematically the flavor worked and it wasn't OP or anything.
I assume DR is damage resistance.
Catapult (being a spell and a save) already ignores resistance to attacks from non-magic weapons.
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Have to say that I find it interesting that Quickened has this issue. All spellcasters have BA spells yet it seems to be mainly Sorceresses that are having widespread issues with it.
It's just not as hard of a pill to swallow for most classes. While they do have BA spells, they're rare and usually a once-per-combat type of things. For example if a druid casts Healing Spirit, and you tell them they can't cast another leveled spell that turn, it's maybe a bit of a bummer but not that big of a deal.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, want to be able to launch two fireballs every turn. Sorcerer and Rogue really bring out the munchkin in people lol.
My Cleric would be a lot more effective if I could do a levelled spell together with my Healing Word, as would most Clerics, not sure I see the difference tbh.
You might be onto something there.. =D
If I were to want the rules to be clearer, I think I'd avoid the whole bonus-action-leveled-spell-action interaction misunderstanding entirely by simply re-writing Quickened Spell metamagic so it does:
It is one of the most commonly misunderstood rules and people need it clarified over and over sometimes. A little bit of extra text here would have been good. Yeah yeah, rules bloat etc. But if something gets misunderstood ALL. THE. TIME. It is clear a few extra sentences or clarifying text, here, would have been wise. And, honestly, I don't think this clarification would have even added a single line if it was succinct enough.
I got quotes!
The PHB isn't going to be re written so general rules with their own chapters are rewritten in every feature that uses that rule, so it is a bit of a moot discussion.
Not really. Erratas do exist. Which do get applied to newer printings of the PHB.
Erratas clarify. They don't add lots of redundant repetition. It's an amendment not a whole rewrite.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
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I don't think anyone is asking for or suggesting this.... So, yes, that is a moot discussion.
I got quotes!
So, the clarification could be helpful in the case of Quicken metamagic.
Look at what it says:
It is a bit muddled whether this is treated like a spell with an action casting time (because it is one) or as a spell with a bonus action cast time (we only treat it as such for this casting). So you'd need to then find the specific text phrasing in the cast time rules to suss out how it interacts with those rules and restrictions.
It isn't immediately obvious that this triggers special bonus action spell rules. You're not even casting a bonus action spell, it is an action cast spell. At least, normally it is.
Most people know how this works at this point in the edition's lifespan, sure, but I swear every time I play with someone newer to the game this specific particular issue comes up and grinds the game to a halt until we can explain it, pull up rules, or otherwise educate the newer player.
This feature changes the way your spell interacts with other features in a way that you may not understand and it should footnote that.
I got quotes!
I doubt that. Druids don't have access to Quickened Spell, and weren't given severely limited spell access in exchange for a promise that metamagic would make up for it. No need to call people munchkins for trying to explore their class features.
Yeah the issue is more that people don't always have bonus actions to freely use for stuff, so it is kind of a bummer that sometimes you do have a bonus action (BA spell) but if you do use it then your actual action gets jacked up and you can't do it anymore. That sucks.
Some classes have plenty of Bonus Actions they can reliably crank out all the time and others don't. And others have reliably good actions they can take that aren't spellcasting. If your only BA is BA spells, and your only good actions is also spells... it'll feel like you're kneecapped a bit compared to someone who has either BA spells and a fantastic non-spell option or someone with spells but also a fantastic non-spell BA available.
It really comes down to the mediocre implementation of bonus actions as a concept in the game in general.
I got quotes!
These are some very interesting points!
IMO the Quickened Spell is useful because majority of spells for a Sorcerer are not a bonus action (misty step being the only OG for 5e). You can cast a high level single action spell as a bonus action and either preceded it or follow it up with a cantrip of one action. If used correctly a Sorcerer can make some amazing combos. Just figuring out the right combos is all the fun.
However, I do feel the Sorcerer is a little under down compared to some of the classes. Especially the OG 5e subclasses. Things have improved a little with TCoE but I feel there is a lot more range available from other spell casting classes. It is like a Sorcerer is a 3/4 caster in away with a tiny bit of flare available.
Again it isn't all about the battles. Half the fun is coming up with great ways to RP your PC.
But finally this is about the whole bonus action spell and cantrip ruling for Quickened Spell (but still is applicable for all spell casting). Which I can understand and agree that the rules aren't obvious but they should be learnt.
Just an old nerd...
Note: you can use the cantrip action cast before the bonus action levelled spell cast - so cast Mind Sliver then follow with quickened spell save spell like Hold Person, to imposed a -1d4 penalty to the save. Even more effective if Shadow Sorc using Hound of Ill Omen for disadvantage.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
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Yeah once you start homebrewing you can do all sorts of wacky stuff like that.
I got quotes!
What about that is homebrew? A sorcerer using a quickened spell, a cantrip, and a class feature that they have -- all while following the bonus action casting rules -- seems to all be part of the rules.
I'm saying there is a narrow number of combinations of synergies/combos that work off Cantrip Action cast plus Bonus Action Level spell cast. But there are a ton if you allow bonus action cantrips and levelled spell action casts. Essentially: "Yeah that is a cool wacky combo. If you homebrew there are a ton of other wacky combos"
I got quotes!
I see what you're saying but the phrasing sure did it make it seem like you were implying the combo I put was homebrew. :P
Letting people cantrip as a bonus and levelled as action -- doesn't seem like it would make much difference, since you can use the bonus action before or after the action, and so you get to decide whether the cantrip or the levelled spell is cast first. But my brain is kinda fried today, so I'm probably missing something. Can you provide an example?
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
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Had a player using Magic Stone + Catapult to create projectiles for the spell that could bypass non-magic weapon DR. We were already well into homebrew territory but thematically the flavor worked and it wasn't OP or anything.
I got quotes!
Other than being against the rules, how is that any different from casting a cantrip as an action then quickening a leveled spell?
I assume DR is damage resistance.
Catapult (being a spell and a save) already ignores resistance to attacks from non-magic weapons.