Also, does the poison wear off if you aren't dropped to 0 HP? It states if you are dropped to 0 HP you are poisoned for 1 hour, but before the 0 HP you are just poisoned and no limit/duration is stated. Is that until it is cured (either by a spell or an antitoxin)?
Same with the Pit Fiend, are you just poisoned forever/until cured? With the two examples of blindness, one states that yes you are blind until cured, the other states you are blind for 1 minute. The poisons don't have this designation either.
Yes, the two conditions only take effect if your HP drops to 0 from the poison damage. However, since my party is level 2, and the bite does a standard 7 and the poison does a standard 9, that actually would equal a one-hit kill for 4 of my 6 players, if their HP is at max, so I figure this is likely to come up.
The cleric and ranger have max HP of 19 and 18 respectively, but the two wizards, rogue and monk are all under the 16 points total damage from that bite attack. Monk has 15 HP, Wizard A and Rogue both have 14, and Wizard B has 10.
Spells and effects that have the victim repeat the saving throw explicitly mention it; there is no core rule about repeating saving throws.
For example, see the difference between the blindness caused by the Dust Mephit and a Solar (comparing imps to pit fiends here, but it works :p ).
...and while we're at the subject of Pit Fiends, check that one's poison too!
And yes, the way it reads, the victim of that poison is only paralyzed if he gets to 0hp from that poison's damage (which is interesting, considering you could drop at 0hp from the piercing part and, as written, you wouldn't be paralyzed. I think the intention is "dropping to 0hp while so poisoned", though).
From the way I interpret it, the poison damage would happen at the same time as the bite damage, it's just depends on whether or not you take the full force of the damage or are able to withstand some of it. So, you would die from the combination of the two damages, like how spells such as Meteor Swarm use multiple damage types, but the source of that damage is still considered one source and the damage occurs at the same time. To read it the other way would imply that the damage happens after the bite, which means you drop to zero and take damage, so you automatically gain a failed death saving throw. That doesn't seem like it would be the intentional effect. I think as written it actually agrees with both of our interpretations as the intention.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Spells and effects that have the victim repeat the saving throw explicitly mention it; there is no core rule about repeating saving throws.
For example, see the difference between the blindness caused by the Dust Mephit and a Solar (comparing imps to pit fiends here, but it works :p ).
...and while we're at the subject of Pit Fiends, check that one's poison too!
And yes, the way it reads, the victim of that poison is only paralyzed if he gets to 0hp from that poison's damage (which is interesting, considering you could drop at 0hp from the piercing part and, as written, you wouldn't be paralyzed. I think the intention is "dropping to 0hp while so poisoned", though).
From the way I interpret it, the poison damage would happen at the same time as the bite damage, it's just depends on whether or not you take the full force of the damage or are able to withstand some of it. So, you would die from the combination of the two damages, like how spells such as Meteor Swarm use multiple damage types, but the source of that damage is still considered one source and the damage occurs at the same time. To read it the other way would imply that the damage happens after the bite, which means you drop to zero and take damage, so you automatically gain a failed death saving throw. That doesn't seem like it would be the intentional effect. I think as written it actually agrees with both of our interpretations as the intention.
Wow, you raise a really interesting point here. So, would you say that dropping to 0 at all on a single bite attack would cause the PC to have the conditions applied, whether the PC got to 0 on the bite damage roll or the poison damage roll? It seems like the RAW says otherwise, since it specifically calls out the poison damage as the trigger for the condition.
Sloporion is likely correct - even my presumed RAI introduces unneeded side-effects. Taking the attack's damage as a single instance of damage with combined effects is a clean solution.
When a victim is immune to poison damage, they only take the piercing, and they can't get poisoned regardless of whether that attack gets them to 0 or not.
Damage from a saving throw isn't part of the attack that caused the saving throw (for instance, it doesn't get rerolled on a critical hit). It's true this can incur a second death or concentration saving throw, but it also means you're less likely to be killed from massive damage. At higher levels it's also easier to make two low concentration saves than one high concentration save which might not even be possible to succeed on.
If the damage were simultaneous, how would you know if the poison damage is what reduced the target to 0 hit points?
Damage from a saving throw isn't part of the attack that caused the saving throw (for instance, it doesn't get rerolled on a critical hit). It's true this can incur a second death or concentration saving throw, but it also means you're less likely to be killed from massive damage. At higher levels it's also easier to make two low concentration saves than one high concentration save which might not even be possible to succeed on.
If the damage were simultaneous, how would you know if the poison damage is what reduced the target to 0 hit points?
Another Sage Advice states that the poison damage is a part of the attack that caused the saving throw for purposes of massive damage deaths. In the linked scenario, the halfling has 2 hit points out of a maximum of 10. The action (bite), causes 11 piercing damage, causing the monk to "go to" -9 hit points (one damage short of killing the monk through massive damage). The poison damage is calculated to be 11 before resistance and saving throws. A successful saving throw reduces the damage to 5 and Stout Resilience reduces it again to 2. Massive damage only applies on the attack that reduces you to zero. Any subsequent attacks merely add death saving throw failures. Crawford states that the spider's bite attack kills the monk, meaning the monk had to have taken that damage all at once. Meaning the damage happens at the same time; the monk took 13 damage from the bite attack (11 piercing and 2 poison).
So, back to our original scenario since the poison damage is part of the damage that reduced the target's HP to 0, the target is poisoned, even IF the piercing damage alone would have reduced the target to 0. It doesn't matter if the piercing damage was 99 and the poison damage was 1, if the target is reduced to 0 hit points by the bite attack and poison damage is applied, it is poisoned. The attack simply does both damage types. This would be no different than if the attack said "Hit: 7 (1d8+3) piercing damage and 9 (2d8) poison damage" and didn't allow for a saving throw to reduce/avoid it. Either way the single bite attack is still what is doing both the piercing and the poison damage.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I still don't think the damage is simultaneous; it could still be the case that you suffer the effects of the attack's damage before the saving throw, which could affect the outcome if the attack's damage adds or removes a condition (e.g. you're knocked unconscious) before the saving throw is rolled. The way the instant death rules are written don't rule this out as a possibility.
As an example, consider a Solar's Slaying Longbow:
Slaying Longbow.Ranged Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage. If the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer, it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or die.
3. Make saving throw if the target has hit points ≤ 100
So Slaying Longbow implicitly assumes you check if the saving throw happens after the effects of the attack's damage. I think I'll double check with Jeremy to be sure though.
I still don't think the damage is simultaneous; it could still be the case that you suffer the effects of the attack's damage before the saving throw, which could affect the outcome if the attack's damage adds or removes a condition (e.g. you're knocked unconscious) before the saving throw is rolled. The way the instant death rules are written don't rule this out as a possibility.
As an example, consider a Solar's Slaying Longbow:
Slaying Longbow.Ranged Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage. If the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer, it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or die.
3. Make saving throw if the target has hit points ≤ 100
So Slaying Longbow implicitly assumes you check if the saving throw happens after the effects of the attack's damage. I think I'll double check with Jeremy to be sure though.
That seems more like it's agreeing with my point than arguing against it. The damage all occurs at the same time and then effects take place. You would take the piercing AND the radiant damage at the same time (because it's all part of the same arrow), and THEN if you were under 100 hp, you'd have to save or die.
In the spider case, you take the piercing and poison damage (which just happens to be able to be reduced via a saving throw, but isn't separate from the bite attack). If you are reduced to 0 by the damage, you are poisoned.
The, "if you are reduced to 0" portion of the bite is the equivalent of the "if the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer" of the arrow. This is a basic flowchart.
Bite Attack
Did the spider hit the target?
Yes: Piercing Damage + Poison Damage -> Does the target succeed at saving throw?
Yes: Target takes half damage from the poison
No: Target takes full poison damage
Is Target at 0 Hit Points
Yes: Did Target take poison damage?
Yes: Target is unconscious and poisoned. Target is paralyzed while poisoned in this way
No: target is unconscious but not poisoned
Obviously there are other things like, does the target have resistance/immunity to poison damage, does the target reduce the damage somehow, etc... but other than outlier stuff, that's the gist of how the spider's attack works
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I still don't think the damage is simultaneous; it could still be the case that you suffer the effects of the attack's damage before the saving throw, which could affect the outcome if the attack's damage adds or removes a condition (e.g. you're knocked unconscious) before the saving throw is rolled. The way the instant death rules are written don't rule this out as a possibility.
As an example, consider a Solar's Slaying Longbow:
Slaying Longbow.Ranged Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage. If the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer, it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or die.
3. Make saving throw if the target has hit points ≤ 100
So Slaying Longbow implicitly assumes you check if the saving throw happens after the effects of the attack's damage. I think I'll double check with Jeremy to be sure though.
That seems more like it's agreeing with my point than arguing against it. The damage all occurs at the same time and then effects take place. You would take the piercing AND the radiant damage at the same time (because it's all part of the same arrow), and THEN if you were under 100 hp, you'd have to save or die.
In the spider case, you take the piercing and poison damage (which just happens to be able to be reduced via a saving throw, but isn't separate from the bite attack). If you are reduced to 0 by the damage, you are poisoned.
The, "if you are reduced to 0" portion of the bite is the equivalent of the "if the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer" of the arrow. This is a basic flowchart.
Bite Attack
Did the spider hit the target?
Yes: Piercing Damage + Poison Damage -> Does the target succeed at saving throw?
Yes: Target takes half damage from the poison
No: Target takes full poison damage
Is Target at 0 Hit Points
Yes: Did Target take poison damage?
Yes: Target is unconscious and poisoned. Target is paralyzed while poisoned in this way
No: target is unconscious but not poisoned
Obviously there are other things like, does the target have resistance/immunity to poison damage, does the target reduce the damage somehow, etc... but other than outlier stuff, that's the gist of how the spider's attack works
This makes sense to me, both in a game-mechanics sense and a real-world sense. If you were bitten by something with venom, the venom would be introduced at the same time as the bite, and you would experience both the damage done at the site of the bite as well as whatever the venom does to your insides. If this giant spider were a real thing, it's bite would inject venom, and then the venom would have the possibility of rendering you unconscious and possibly paralyzed. Sloporion's flowchart seems pretty common-sense.
Hey everyone. Just a follow up here. First off, I continue to love the DDB forums for all the knowledge that is here in your brains, and remain terribly grateful that you are all so willing to share it with me.
Last night my party came up against two giant spiders. After the lengthy discussion here, I felt legitimately concerned that this could be a deadly encounter for my group of level 2 PCs. As the encounter approached, I reiterated both in-story and OOG that the foes in these ruins were not insignificant, and there was a possibility that some characters may not come out of this at all. Well. Encounter starts off with the spiders getting surprise. Both of them missed. Initiative time. I roll crap, so the spiders are last in the order. The wizard starts off with Burning Hands, and one of the spiders rolls a nat 1 on the saving throw. The other spider failed it's save also. So by the time the spiders get a chance to attack, one is almost dead and the other is not in great shape either. One spider goes to attack the dwarf, who is stuck in the webs. I roll another nat 1. Spider #2 also misses. Basically, long story short, neither spider landed a single attack, and the whole encounter was over halfway through the third round. I had been sure that this was going to be the biggest test they had faced so far in the campaign, and was worried that they chose a side-quest that was beyond their capabilities at level 2, and so far it has been a walk in the park. Next week they'll be running into a young green dragon. If things keep going the way they have, they'll probably end up killing it without taking any damage lol
That's how it usually goes. What you expect to be a terribly dangerous encounter ends up overwhelmingly in the favor of the PCs (usually due to impressively lucky rolls, or a trait/spell/ability/item you didn't consider being pivotal, or, less usually and more interestingly, a tremendously clever tactic), and an encounter you expect they will wrap up in 2 rounds ends up almost at a TPK.
As a personal anecdote, my group had no issues with any of the Dragon encounters in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat (other than the end encounter, obviously >.> ), but was almost wiped out by a vampire encounter I expected they'd wipe the floor with (Charm hurts a lot...)
That's how it usually goes. What you expect to be a terribly dangerous encounter ends up overwhelmingly in the favor of the PCs (usually due to impressively lucky rolls, or a trait/spell/ability/item you didn't consider being pivotal, or, less usually and more interestingly, a tremendously clever tactic), and an encounter you expect they will wrap up in 2 rounds ends up almost at a TPK.
As a personal anecdote, my group had no issues with any of the Dragon encounters in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat (other than the end encounter, obviously >.> ), but was almost wiped out by a vampire encounter I expected they'd wipe the floor with (Charm hurts a lot...)
Happens all the time to me, too. Just Monday, I accidentally killed two 4th-level characters with a gelatinous cube. (One of them jumped on it, did 8 damage, and then spent the rest of the encounter dissolving.)
That's how it usually goes. What you expect to be a terribly dangerous encounter ends up overwhelmingly in the favor of the PCs (usually due to impressively lucky rolls, or a trait/spell/ability/item you didn't consider being pivotal, or, less usually and more interestingly, a tremendously clever tactic), and an encounter you expect they will wrap up in 2 rounds ends up almost at a TPK.
As a personal anecdote, my group had no issues with any of the Dragon encounters in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat (other than the end encounter, obviously >.> ), but was almost wiped out by a vampire encounter I expected they'd wipe the floor with (Charm hurts a lot...)
Happens all the time to me, too. Just Monday, I accidentally killed two 4th-level characters with a gelatinous cube. (One of them jumped on it, did 8 damage, and then spent the rest of the encounter dissolving.)
ExactlyI They went against a group of Twig Blights, which have 4 HP each. It wasn't close to a TPK, but a couple crits on my part did some serious damage (everyone was level 2 at the time). That encounter went several rounds longer than expected, as everyone's dice went cold at the same time. They couldn't buy a decent roll for a bit there. Lots of swings and misses, lots of Rays of Frost firing in random directions. They were annoyed, but in that "this is pissing me off, but it's also kind of funny that this group of 6 adventurers has their hands full with animated bundles of sticks" kind of way.
That's how it usually goes. What you expect to be a terribly dangerous encounter ends up overwhelmingly in the favor of the PCs (usually due to impressively lucky rolls, or a trait/spell/ability/item you didn't consider being pivotal, or, less usually and more interestingly, a tremendously clever tactic), and an encounter you expect they will wrap up in 2 rounds ends up almost at a TPK.
As a personal anecdote, my group had no issues with any of the Dragon encounters in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat (other than the end encounter, obviously >.> ), but was almost wiped out by a vampire encounter I expected they'd wipe the floor with (Charm hurts a lot...)
Happens all the time to me, too. Just Monday, I accidentally killed two 4th-level characters with a gelatinous cube. (One of them jumped on it, did 8 damage, and then spent the rest of the encounter dissolving.)
ExactlyI They went against a group of Twig Blights, which have 4 HP each. It wasn't close to a TPK, but a couple crits on my part did some serious damage (everyone was level 2 at the time). That encounter went several rounds longer than expected, as everyone's dice went cold at the same time. They couldn't buy a decent roll for a bit there. Lots of swings and misses, lots of Rays of Frost firing in random directions. They were annoyed, but in that "this is pissing me off, but it's also kind of funny that this group of 6 adventurers has their hands full with animated bundles of sticks" kind of way.
I once had an awakened shrub deal 8 damage to a 1st-level character. It rolled a crit, did max damage, and the player rolled a 1.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
That's how it usually goes. What you expect to be a terribly dangerous encounter ends up overwhelmingly in the favor of the PCs (usually due to impressively lucky rolls, or a trait/spell/ability/item you didn't consider being pivotal, or, less usually and more interestingly, a tremendously clever tactic), and an encounter you expect they will wrap up in 2 rounds ends up almost at a TPK.
As a personal anecdote, my group had no issues with any of the Dragon encounters in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat (other than the end encounter, obviously >.> ), but was almost wiped out by a vampire encounter I expected they'd wipe the floor with (Charm hurts a lot...)
Happens all the time to me, too. Just Monday, I accidentally killed two 4th-level characters with a gelatinous cube. (One of them jumped on it, did 8 damage, and then spent the rest of the encounter dissolving.)
ExactlyI They went against a group of Twig Blights, which have 4 HP each. It wasn't close to a TPK, but a couple crits on my part did some serious damage (everyone was level 2 at the time). That encounter went several rounds longer than expected, as everyone's dice went cold at the same time. They couldn't buy a decent roll for a bit there. Lots of swings and misses, lots of Rays of Frost firing in random directions. They were annoyed, but in that "this is pissing me off, but it's also kind of funny that this group of 6 adventurers has their hands full with animated bundles of sticks" kind of way.
I once had an awakened shrub deal 8 damage to a 1st-level character. It rolled a crit, did max damage, and the player rolled a 1.
That's how it usually goes. What you expect to be a terribly dangerous encounter ends up overwhelmingly in the favor of the PCs (usually due to impressively lucky rolls, or a trait/spell/ability/item you didn't consider being pivotal, or, less usually and more interestingly, a tremendously clever tactic), and an encounter you expect they will wrap up in 2 rounds ends up almost at a TPK.
As a personal anecdote, my group had no issues with any of the Dragon encounters in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat (other than the end encounter, obviously >.> ), but was almost wiped out by a vampire encounter I expected they'd wipe the floor with (Charm hurts a lot...)
Happens all the time to me, too. Just Monday, I accidentally killed two 4th-level characters with a gelatinous cube. (One of them jumped on it, did 8 damage, and then spent the rest of the encounter dissolving.)
ExactlyI They went against a group of Twig Blights, which have 4 HP each. It wasn't close to a TPK, but a couple crits on my part did some serious damage (everyone was level 2 at the time). That encounter went several rounds longer than expected, as everyone's dice went cold at the same time. They couldn't buy a decent roll for a bit there. Lots of swings and misses, lots of Rays of Frost firing in random directions. They were annoyed, but in that "this is pissing me off, but it's also kind of funny that this group of 6 adventurers has their hands full with animated bundles of sticks" kind of way.
I once had an awakened shrub deal 8 damage to a 1st-level character. It rolled a crit, did max damage, and the player rolled a 1.
Dude, that shrub is woke.
Had a 3e campaign where the cleric got killed (like outright died) to two fire beetles that he decided to casually walk between because nobody had been hurt so far and he wanted something to use his healing spells on... Somehow I managed two crits (and I rolled in front of them, so no fudging allowed for those rolls) 8d4 damage later and he was below -10 in what was MAYBE the third room of the dungeon and supposed to be a throwaway fight so they could discover something the beetles were chewing on.
5e Giant Fire Beetles aren't nearly as bad as those were (though they weren't bad, honestly), but I DO put them in dungeons every once in a while just to get a reaction from that player.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
since this is a fantasy game, there might be another way for low level characters to deal with the poison from giant spiders... if they think of the idea to suck the poison out, you as DM could allow another saving throw with advantage
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Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
From the way I interpret it, the poison damage would happen at the same time as the bite damage, it's just depends on whether or not you take the full force of the damage or are able to withstand some of it. So, you would die from the combination of the two damages, like how spells such as Meteor Swarm use multiple damage types, but the source of that damage is still considered one source and the damage occurs at the same time. To read it the other way would imply that the damage happens after the bite, which means you drop to zero and take damage, so you automatically gain a failed death saving throw. That doesn't seem like it would be the intentional effect. I think as written it actually agrees with both of our interpretations as the intention.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Sloporion is likely correct - even my presumed RAI introduces unneeded side-effects. Taking the attack's damage as a single instance of damage with combined effects is a clean solution.
When a victim is immune to poison damage, they only take the piercing, and they can't get poisoned regardless of whether that attack gets them to 0 or not.
Damage from a saving throw isn't part of the attack that caused the saving throw (for instance, it doesn't get rerolled on a critical hit). It's true this can incur a second death or concentration saving throw, but it also means you're less likely to be killed from massive damage. At higher levels it's also easier to make two low concentration saves than one high concentration save which might not even be possible to succeed on.
If the damage were simultaneous, how would you know if the poison damage is what reduced the target to 0 hit points?
If the bite only takes the target to 0, than the target still has to do the CON saving throw. On fail, the target is poisoned.
So, back to our original scenario since the poison damage is part of the damage that reduced the target's HP to 0, the target is poisoned, even IF the piercing damage alone would have reduced the target to 0. It doesn't matter if the piercing damage was 99 and the poison damage was 1, if the target is reduced to 0 hit points by the bite attack and poison damage is applied, it is poisoned. The attack simply does both damage types. This would be no different than if the attack said "Hit: 7 (1d8+3) piercing damage and 9 (2d8) poison damage" and didn't allow for a saving throw to reduce/avoid it. Either way the single bite attack is still what is doing both the piercing and the poison damage.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Good catch. I agree with you on instant death.
I still don't think the damage is simultaneous; it could still be the case that you suffer the effects of the attack's damage before the saving throw, which could affect the outcome if the attack's damage adds or removes a condition (e.g. you're knocked unconscious) before the saving throw is rolled. The way the instant death rules are written don't rule this out as a possibility.
As an example, consider a Solar's Slaying Longbow:
Jeremy has this to say about it:
So Slaying Longbow implicitly assumes you check if the saving throw happens after the effects of the attack's damage. I think I'll double check with Jeremy to be sure though.
In the spider case, you take the piercing and poison damage (which just happens to be able to be reduced via a saving throw, but isn't separate from the bite attack). If you are reduced to 0 by the damage, you are poisoned.
The, "if you are reduced to 0" portion of the bite is the equivalent of the "if the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer" of the arrow. This is a basic flowchart.
Bite Attack
Obviously there are other things like, does the target have resistance/immunity to poison damage, does the target reduce the damage somehow, etc... but other than outlier stuff, that's the gist of how the spider's attack works
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Hey everyone. Just a follow up here. First off, I continue to love the DDB forums for all the knowledge that is here in your brains, and remain terribly grateful that you are all so willing to share it with me.
Last night my party came up against two giant spiders. After the lengthy discussion here, I felt legitimately concerned that this could be a deadly encounter for my group of level 2 PCs. As the encounter approached, I reiterated both in-story and OOG that the foes in these ruins were not insignificant, and there was a possibility that some characters may not come out of this at all. Well. Encounter starts off with the spiders getting surprise. Both of them missed. Initiative time. I roll crap, so the spiders are last in the order. The wizard starts off with Burning Hands, and one of the spiders rolls a nat 1 on the saving throw. The other spider failed it's save also. So by the time the spiders get a chance to attack, one is almost dead and the other is not in great shape either. One spider goes to attack the dwarf, who is stuck in the webs. I roll another nat 1. Spider #2 also misses. Basically, long story short, neither spider landed a single attack, and the whole encounter was over halfway through the third round. I had been sure that this was going to be the biggest test they had faced so far in the campaign, and was worried that they chose a side-quest that was beyond their capabilities at level 2, and so far it has been a walk in the park. Next week they'll be running into a young green dragon. If things keep going the way they have, they'll probably end up killing it without taking any damage lol
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
That's how it usually goes. What you expect to be a terribly dangerous encounter ends up overwhelmingly in the favor of the PCs (usually due to impressively lucky rolls, or a trait/spell/ability/item you didn't consider being pivotal, or, less usually and more interestingly, a tremendously clever tactic), and an encounter you expect they will wrap up in 2 rounds ends up almost at a TPK.
As a personal anecdote, my group had no issues with any of the Dragon encounters in Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat (other than the end encounter, obviously >.> ), but was almost wiped out by a vampire encounter I expected they'd wipe the floor with (Charm hurts a lot...)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Jumped on it?! O.o
I know what was going through that character's head now.
"I bet this would be an excellent mount!"
If you feel that is going to be too easy for the party, boost a bit the monsters' hit points ;-)
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
5e Giant Fire Beetles aren't nearly as bad as those were (though they weren't bad, honestly), but I DO put them in dungeons every once in a while just to get a reaction from that player.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
since this is a fantasy game, there might be another way for low level characters to deal with the poison from giant spiders... if they think of the idea to suck the poison out, you as DM could allow another saving throw with advantage