So, I was thinking of playing in a PvP campaign, and started thinking of strategies. I looked at invocations, and saw One with Shadows and Maddening Hex. That got my brain thinking.
If I Hex an opponent, then turn invisible, can I keep the damage without turning Visible? Here’s my reasoning.
Hex and Maddening Hex are bonus actions. Let’s say I use hex, turn invisible, next turn. Now, If I don’t move or take an action, and use my bonus action to deal damage, since it’s a Bonus Action, not an Action, would i stay invisible or no?
I think you would not remain invisible. I believe that a bonus action is a subset of the "action" concept. In the PHB a bonus action is also called "an additional action" and also "anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action". The Incapacitated condition, for example, only mentions actions and reactions, but that also covers bonus actions.
Yes, but you can still take Actions while invisible, you just become visible afterwards. Which is why I ask, since nothing stops you.
My logic is that since nothing stops you from taking an action, and Bonus actions aren’t exactly actions, then you should stay invisible while using the bonus action, right?
The important part of the question plays off off 2 lines:
Invisibility states: "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell."
Maddening Hex states: "As a bonus action, you cause a psychic disturbance around the target cursed by your Hex spell or by a warlock feature of yours..."
By my reading of the two I could see a case for not dropping Invisibility due to the fact you are neither taking an action or casting a spell when using Maddening Hex. You are simply triggering an effect because of a spell rather than casting a spell. It could be argued it's similar to an Attack from a Spiritual Weapon which is an effect that has a key word Bonus Action.
However, the biggest thing that is missing is that you could not use both Hex and One with Shadows if both abilities are considered Concentration spells.
Yes, but you can still take Actions while invisible, you just become visible afterwards. Which is why I ask, since nothing stops you.
My logic is that since nothing stops you from taking an action, and Bonus actions aren’t exactly actions, then you should stay invisible while using the bonus action, right?
Bonus Actions are actions. Taking a bonus action will cancel your One With Shadows invisibility.
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Maddening Hex is a BA, however Hex + One with Shadows can't occur since they're both concentration.
As far as I can tell, the best you could do is Hex on turn 1, turn 2 hide and BA Maddening Hex. Due to the fact that you can use a BA while hidden without breaking stealth, it should work.
One with Shadows doesn’t require concentration, it’s an Invocation. Invisibility does require concentration, I think. So one could both have hexed someone and disappear.
@Yharim, no, I was just trying to say that DM’s control what happens. And nothing is stopping you from taking actions, so.... hm.
@DxJ I know, as I just said, was trying to make a point.
I was just saying that it has the same wording as One with Shadows. Both say action or reaction. Not capital 'A' Action. If you can't use a bonus action while incapacitated, I see no reason why you could keep invisibility with One with Shadows if you used a bonus action.
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One with Shadows doesn’t require concentration, it’s an Invocation. Invisibility does require concentration, I think. So one could both have hexed someone and disappear.
Invisibility does require concentration, One with Shadows allows you to become invisible. I understand that it does not use the term "you may cast" like many other invocations, but how do you maintain the invisibility? It would imply, from the description and your assertion, that once you use the invocation you cannot move out of the shadows/dim light otherwise the invisibility will drop. If that is not the case then how does the Warlock maintain the invisibility if not concentration?
So, option 1: One with Shadows is not concentration, you can use Hex, and in that case the Maddening Hex should be applicable. However, you are unable to move from a dim light/shadowed area otherwise your invisibility drops.
option 2: One with shadows is concentration, you cannot use Hex, and Maddening Hex would not be applicable. However, you are able to move while invisible even outside of a dim light/shadowed area.
So I was actually on @BoboBoombang's side until I went and read "One with Shadows" and "Maddening Hex".
One with Shadows: Does not seem to require concentration because it isn't casting invisibility on you. However, it seems more restrictive than invisibility. Because it states "until you move or take an action or a reaction." Where with Invisibility you can still move around it doesn't even stop you from taking actions, it just says "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." Meaning you could still open doors and take simple actions. At least that is my understanding from reading.
So back to the question. Due to the tighter wording restriction on One with Shadows, it seems like it meant that as long as you do nothing you remain invisible, but once you do anything you are visible again.
So to me, the real question is, If you were to cast Maddening Hex one someone and another player cast invisibility on you. Do you lose invisibility because you are already concentration on a spell?
I think I might personally have ruled this as okay just because it was creative uses of two spells working together. I would even allow it to be honest. Since the player isn't recasting Maddening Hex they are just triggering it. Maddening Hex doesn't specify that it is an attack or spell to use as a bonus action. Though, I bet if it was closely looked at this would be more of a house rule than official. It is an interesting question though.
Can anyone let me know if you can remain invisible if concentrating on another spell? Please keep in mind I am assuming another player cast invisibility on you, not that you are concentrating on invisibility and another spell at the same time. Another player would be concentrating on invisibility.
Can anyone let me know if you can remain invisible if concentrating on another spell? Please keep in mind I am assuming another player cast invisibility on you, not that you are concentrating on invisibility and another spell at the same time. Another player would be concentrating on invisibility.
The person casting Invisibility must maintain concentration. So; warlock casts hex, wizard casts invisibility on warlock, everything is good.
Can anyone let me know if you can remain invisible if concentrating on another spell? Please keep in mind I am assuming another player cast invisibility on you, not that you are concentrating on invisibility and another spell at the same time. Another player would be concentrating on invisibility.
The person casting Invisibility must maintain concentration. So wizard casts invisibility on warlock, warlock casts hex, everything is good.
That is what I thought. So that might be a solution. Though it does require another player to work with you which might be hard on PvP with no teams. lol
Who needs a 2nd person? Have the Chain Pact (or a flying money familiar) and give your familiar a Ring of Spell Storing. Cast Invisibility on it, have the Familiar Invisible you, it turns Invisible (if it’s Chain Pact), and boom! Free damage! Ish. Kinda. Not really, but still.
So, I was thinking of playing in a PvP campaign, and started thinking of strategies. I looked at invocations, and saw One with Shadows and Maddening Hex. That got my brain thinking.
If I Hex an opponent, then turn invisible, can I keep the damage without turning Visible? Here’s my reasoning.
Hex and Maddening Hex are bonus actions. Let’s say I use hex, turn invisible, next turn. Now, If I don’t move or take an action, and use my bonus action to deal damage, since it’s a Bonus Action, not an Action, would i stay invisible or no?
I think you would not remain invisible. I believe that a bonus action is a subset of the "action" concept. In the PHB a bonus action is also called "an additional action" and also "anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action". The Incapacitated condition, for example, only mentions actions and reactions, but that also covers bonus actions.
Yes, but you can still take Actions while invisible, you just become visible afterwards. Which is why I ask, since nothing stops you.
My logic is that since nothing stops you from taking an action, and Bonus actions aren’t exactly actions, then you should stay invisible while using the bonus action, right?
The important part of the question plays off off 2 lines:
Invisibility states: "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell."
Maddening Hex states: "As a bonus action, you cause a psychic disturbance around the target cursed by your Hex spell or by a warlock feature of yours..."
By my reading of the two I could see a case for not dropping Invisibility due to the fact you are neither taking an action or casting a spell when using Maddening Hex. You are simply triggering an effect because of a spell rather than casting a spell. It could be argued it's similar to an Attack from a Spiritual Weapon which is an effect that has a key word Bonus Action.
However, the biggest thing that is missing is that you could not use both Hex and One with Shadows if both abilities are considered Concentration spells.
Well, he’s using the One with Shadows invocation, but reading it your argument makes sense still. If he was using invisibility he couldnt have Hex up.
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Bonus Actions are actions. Taking a bonus action will cancel your One With Shadows invisibility.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/635880453451333632
But...
https://mobile.twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1105277917582389248
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Incapacitated says you can't take actions or reactions. Are you saying you could take a bonus action while stunned, paralyzed, or unconscious?
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Yeah, but the tweet Correon used was not making a ruling, merely pointing out the PHB rule that answers the question. And the PHB is official rules.
@Yharim, no, I was just trying to say that DM’s control what happens. And nothing is stopping you from taking actions, so.... hm.
@DxJ I know, as I just said, was trying to make a point.
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What if the PC's action (after the Hex / One With Shadows round...) is to Hide? Then the Maddening Hex is the BA?
Maddening Hex is a BA, however Hex + One with Shadows can't occur since they're both concentration.
As far as I can tell, the best you could do is Hex on turn 1, turn 2 hide and BA Maddening Hex. Due to the fact that you can use a BA while hidden without breaking stealth, it should work.
One with Shadows doesn’t require concentration, it’s an Invocation. Invisibility does require concentration, I think. So one could both have hexed someone and disappear.
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I was just saying that it has the same wording as One with Shadows. Both say action or reaction. Not capital 'A' Action. If you can't use a bonus action while incapacitated, I see no reason why you could keep invisibility with One with Shadows if you used a bonus action.
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Warlock
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Invisibility does require concentration, One with Shadows allows you to become invisible. I understand that it does not use the term "you may cast" like many other invocations, but how do you maintain the invisibility? It would imply, from the description and your assertion, that once you use the invocation you cannot move out of the shadows/dim light otherwise the invisibility will drop. If that is not the case then how does the Warlock maintain the invisibility if not concentration?
So, option 1: One with Shadows is not concentration, you can use Hex, and in that case the Maddening Hex should be applicable. However, you are unable to move from a dim light/shadowed area otherwise your invisibility drops.
option 2: One with shadows is concentration, you cannot use Hex, and Maddening Hex would not be applicable. However, you are able to move while invisible even outside of a dim light/shadowed area.
I can see value in both options.
So I was actually on @BoboBoombang's side until I went and read "One with Shadows" and "Maddening Hex".
One with Shadows: Does not seem to require concentration because it isn't casting invisibility on you. However, it seems more restrictive than invisibility. Because it states "until you move or take an action or a reaction." Where with Invisibility you can still move around it doesn't even stop you from taking actions, it just says "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." Meaning you could still open doors and take simple actions. At least that is my understanding from reading.
So back to the question. Due to the tighter wording restriction on One with Shadows, it seems like it meant that as long as you do nothing you remain invisible, but once you do anything you are visible again.
So to me, the real question is, If you were to cast Maddening Hex one someone and another player cast invisibility on you. Do you lose invisibility because you are already concentration on a spell?
I think I might personally have ruled this as okay just because it was creative uses of two spells working together. I would even allow it to be honest. Since the player isn't recasting Maddening Hex they are just triggering it. Maddening Hex doesn't specify that it is an attack or spell to use as a bonus action. Though, I bet if it was closely looked at this would be more of a house rule than official. It is an interesting question though.
Can anyone let me know if you can remain invisible if concentrating on another spell? Please keep in mind I am assuming another player cast invisibility on you, not that you are concentrating on invisibility and another spell at the same time. Another player would be concentrating on invisibility.
The person casting Invisibility must maintain concentration. So; warlock casts hex, wizard casts invisibility on warlock, everything is good.
That is what I thought. So that might be a solution. Though it does require another player to work with you which might be hard on PvP with no teams. lol
Who needs a 2nd person? Have the Chain Pact (or a flying money familiar) and give your familiar a Ring of Spell Storing. Cast Invisibility on it, have the Familiar Invisible you, it turns Invisible (if it’s Chain Pact), and boom! Free damage! Ish. Kinda. Not really, but still.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
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Or be a Hexblade. Just saying, Hexblade’s Curse means no Concentration required, meaning you’re free to do that free damage build all you want.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.