in the MM, it’s mentioned that only divine intervention can restore someone’s soul once a devil has claimed it. Does that include the Cleric’s Divine Intervention?
So a player could then use Infernal calling to summon a demon, offer it’s soul in exchange for a legendary weapon, then a cleric could just save their soul?
I mean, a Cleric would have - at absolute best, at level 20 - a 20% chance of saving their soul. But yeah, that would probably be mechanically possible. What cleric would want to save the soul of someone who willingly sold it, though?
I mean, a Cleric would have - at absolute best, at level 20 - a 20% chance of saving their soul. But yeah, that would probably be mechanically possible. What cleric would want to save the soul of someone who willingly sold it, though?
Actually, at level 20, it would be 100% (capstone ability).
I mean, a Cleric would have - at absolute best, at level 20 - a 20% chance of saving their soul. But yeah, that would probably be mechanically possible. What cleric would want to save the soul of someone who willingly sold it, though?
A level 10 cleric has a 10% chance per day of succeeding, so there's a pretty good chance that you'll manage it eventually. That said, you do have to worry about what could happen to the soul in the mean time.
Remember that the 10-19% chance, and the 100% for lvl 20, is only the chance that the deity will intervene in some way. The nature of the intervention is up to the DM not the player. The DM may decide to have the god save the soul, or they might rule that the god has no interest in saving such an unworthy creature. Maybe the god would instead point to the path which must be followed in order to be found worthy.
I mean, yes, it's up to the DM, as everything is, but a cleric is supposed to have a positive relationship with their deity, and it would be a dick move on the DM's part to have "well, your roll succeeded, but your god don't wanna".
I mean, yes, it's up to the DM, as everything is, but a cleric is supposed to have a positive relationship with their deity, and it would be a dick move on the DM's part to have "well, your roll succeeded, but your god don't wanna".
The god informs them that the cleric's soul will have to take the place of the sacrificed one.
Probably depends on the God... some of them might be offended at being used as a "get out of jail free" card, but others might relish the ingenuity used to get around the technicalities.
I mean, you still have to deal with the fact that this essentially means that you stole the payment for the item from the Devil in question... there's no guarantee that your deity would also kill the Devil. So now you've go a powerful Devil who still feels entitled to your soul, and likely isn't too picky about what it takes to collect.
I mean, yes, it's up to the DM, as everything is, but a cleric is supposed to have a positive relationship with their deity, and it would be a dick move on the DM's part to have "well, your roll succeeded, but your god don't wanna".
The god informs them that the cleric's soul will have to take the place of the sacrificed one.
It's your game, and I won't say that your fun is wrong, but gods and their cleric are supposed to be on the same side, so I don't see why the god would bargain against their cleric, or even sacrifice them. I think that having Divine Intervention work as a nastier Wish sort of removes what makes it special to be a cleric.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences: the devil will certainly be pissed that their lawfully gained soul has been taken away.
I'm not even saying it should be easy : maybe the god doesn't simply release the soul, but instead send the party to Hell so they can go get it themselves.
But I don't think the relationship between a cleric and their god should be a negative one, or that the god should work against/refuse the cleric (as long as the cleric isn't the kind to call every week for stupid stuff).
I mean, yes, it's up to the DM, as everything is, but a cleric is supposed to have a positive relationship with their deity, and it would be a dick move on the DM's part to have "well, your roll succeeded, but your god don't wanna".
The god informs them that the cleric's soul will have to take the place of the sacrificed one.
It's your game, and I won't say that your fun is wrong, but gods and their cleric are supposed to be on the same side, so I don't see why the god would bargain against their cleric, or even sacrifice them. I think that having Divine Intervention work as a nastier Wish sort of removes what makes it special to be a cleric.
DnD gods aren't omnipotent, replacing one soul with another may be the only practical way (as in, the only way that doesn't result in an active war between the gods) the god can grant the request. Now I wouldn't suggest the god just take the cleric's soul to replace it, just inform them that it will be necessary if they want to proceed.
Oh, yeah, then I agree. I don't think that's how I would play it (although it depends heavily on the context and what my goal as a DM is here), but I think it's fair.
I mean, a Cleric would have - at absolute best, at level 20 - a 20% chance of saving their soul. But yeah, that would probably be mechanically possible. What cleric would want to save the soul of someone who willingly sold it, though?
Actually, at level 20, it would be 100% (capstone ability).
True, forgot about that.
So at level 20 probably, at lower levels they might be a Lemure or something by the time you pull it off.
Or, you could play it such that the god tells the cleric "souls must be *willing* to be returned. Since this soul entered the bargain willingly, I have no sway over it. Here's a quest you must undertake to redeem the soul first, and if you succeed, redeem the soul, and make it willing to return, then I can intervene and help."
But as a DM, I'd make sure part of the quest means relinquishing the legendary weapon. Encouraging creativity is one thing. Encouraging wangrod-ish cheesing of the rules is another.
Whatever the outcome, the quest should be something epic enough to redeem a soul.
That being said, IF the character that sold their soul in the first place was a devotee of any god, then THAT god might be under the opinion that the soul in question was in fact their property, and not the character's. Therefor the character had no legal claim to the soul in the first place, and that god might now have beef with the character.... Either way, it should lead to a fun set of adventures!!
Whatever the outcome, the quest should be something epic enough to redeem a soul.
That being said, IF the character that sold their soul in the first place was a devotee of any god, then THAT god might be under the opinion that the soul in question was in fact their property, and not the character's. Therefor the character had no legal claim to the soul in the first place, and that god might now have beef with the character.... Either way, it should lead to a fun set of adventures!!
Heh. That right there is the twist ending to Stardust.
Also, spoilers, if you haven't read a 20+ year old book.
Probably depends on the God... some of them might be offended at being used as a "get out of jail free" card, but others might relish the ingenuity used to get around the technicalities.
I mean, you still have to deal with the fact that this essentially means that you stole the payment for the item from the Devil in question... there's no guarantee that your deity would also kill the Devil. So now you've go a powerful Devil who still feels entitled to your soul, and likely isn't too picky about what it takes to collect.
A deity of the Trickery domain would love seeing one of their Clerics pull that off.
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Divine Intervention is really all up to the DM. And I agree with a lot of the comments here that it should be allowed but probably require some work on the players part. I really like the idea of your God not directly freeing the soul, but telling you the method to do it. Maybe they know about an object the devil will be willing to trade for the soul? Or a way to destroy the devil and freeing all the trapped souls?
in the MM, it’s mentioned that only divine intervention can restore someone’s soul once a devil has claimed it. Does that include the Cleric’s Divine Intervention?
That's really up to a DM, but I would say yes. Seems to be the kind of thing it's meant for.
So a player could then use Infernal calling to summon a demon, offer it’s soul in exchange for a legendary weapon, then a cleric could just save their soul?
I mean, a Cleric would have - at absolute best, at level 20 - a 20% chance of saving their soul. But yeah, that would probably be mechanically possible.
What cleric would want to save the soul of someone who willingly sold it, though?
Actually, at level 20, it would be 100% (capstone ability).
A level 10 cleric has a 10% chance per day of succeeding, so there's a pretty good chance that you'll manage it eventually. That said, you do have to worry about what could happen to the soul in the mean time.
Remember that the 10-19% chance, and the 100% for lvl 20, is only the chance that the deity will intervene in some way. The nature of the intervention is up to the DM not the player. The DM may decide to have the god save the soul, or they might rule that the god has no interest in saving such an unworthy creature. Maybe the god would instead point to the path which must be followed in order to be found worthy.
I mean, yes, it's up to the DM, as everything is, but a cleric is supposed to have a positive relationship with their deity, and it would be a dick move on the DM's part to have "well, your roll succeeded, but your god don't wanna".
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The god informs them that the cleric's soul will have to take the place of the sacrificed one.
Probably depends on the God... some of them might be offended at being used as a "get out of jail free" card, but others might relish the ingenuity used to get around the technicalities.
I mean, you still have to deal with the fact that this essentially means that you stole the payment for the item from the Devil in question... there's no guarantee that your deity would also kill the Devil. So now you've go a powerful Devil who still feels entitled to your soul, and likely isn't too picky about what it takes to collect.
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It's your game, and I won't say that your fun is wrong, but gods and their cleric are supposed to be on the same side, so I don't see why the god would bargain against their cleric, or even sacrifice them. I think that having Divine Intervention work as a nastier Wish sort of removes what makes it special to be a cleric.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences: the devil will certainly be pissed that their lawfully gained soul has been taken away.
I'm not even saying it should be easy : maybe the god doesn't simply release the soul, but instead send the party to Hell so they can go get it themselves.
But I don't think the relationship between a cleric and their god should be a negative one, or that the god should work against/refuse the cleric (as long as the cleric isn't the kind to call every week for stupid stuff).
Jeremy Crawford talked a bit about that feature in a video, and I thought it was interesting to watch.
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DnD gods aren't omnipotent, replacing one soul with another may be the only practical way (as in, the only way that doesn't result in an active war between the gods) the god can grant the request. Now I wouldn't suggest the god just take the cleric's soul to replace it, just inform them that it will be necessary if they want to proceed.
Oh, yeah, then I agree. I don't think that's how I would play it (although it depends heavily on the context and what my goal as a DM is here), but I think it's fair.
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True, forgot about that.
So at level 20 probably, at lower levels they might be a Lemure or something by the time you pull it off.
Or, you could play it such that the god tells the cleric "souls must be *willing* to be returned. Since this soul entered the bargain willingly, I have no sway over it. Here's a quest you must undertake to redeem the soul first, and if you succeed, redeem the soul, and make it willing to return, then I can intervene and help."
But as a DM, I'd make sure part of the quest means relinquishing the legendary weapon. Encouraging creativity is one thing. Encouraging wangrod-ish cheesing of the rules is another.
Whatever the outcome, the quest should be something epic enough to redeem a soul.
That being said, IF the character that sold their soul in the first place was a devotee of any god, then THAT god might be under the opinion that the soul in question was in fact their property, and not the character's. Therefor the character had no legal claim to the soul in the first place, and that god might now have beef with the character.... Either way, it should lead to a fun set of adventures!!
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Heh. That right there is the twist ending to Stardust.
Also, spoilers, if you haven't read a 20+ year old book.
A deity of the Trickery domain would love seeing one of their Clerics pull that off.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I like the idea of a devil attempting to reclaim the soul they think is rightfully their property. That could lead to a really neat story
Divine Intervention is really all up to the DM. And I agree with a lot of the comments here that it should be allowed but probably require some work on the players part. I really like the idea of your God not directly freeing the soul, but telling you the method to do it. Maybe they know about an object the devil will be willing to trade for the soul? Or a way to destroy the devil and freeing all the trapped souls?
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