I guess they should tack on "Ignore the Ammunition Property unless you choose the load the weapon manually." to prevent this kind of debate.
I think they didn't tack on that phrase in order to prevent this kind of debate.
The ammunition tag on a weapon has two parts. First, it requires ammunition; something you need to track in your inventory. Second, it requires two hands. The repeating weapon does not ignore the amunition tag*, it just requires no ammo. So, it only removes the first part of the ammunition property, leaving the second part unchanged.
So much for ending the topic...
And the ammunition property has way more than 2 parts. There is the part about making ranged attacks, the part about expending ammo, the part about drawing and loading ammo as part of the attack (which requires a free hand), and the part about retrieving ammo. All the parts that involve ammo dont apply which leaves: can make ranged attacks.
_____ *Rules in 5E do what they say they do and no more. If the rules writers intended the magic item to ignore the amunition property then they would have said that.
This is good advice we should apply it to the rule in question: drawing and loading ammunition requires a free hand. The rule does not say that the weapon requires that hand for any other kind of prepation only for ammo. The weapon does not need ammo, ergo the weapon does not need a free hand.
The only ones applying more to a rule than what is written are the ones saying you need to load a weapon without ammo.
This topic is quite absurd when the rules talk quite clearly about two differents properties.
The infusion of the artificer works as the Crossbow Expert in terms of the property of "loading ". Both specify to ignore the "loading" property, not the amunition.
So, you still need a free hand to recharge a one handed ranged weapon like the hand crossbow
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon" specify that you need to load, even if you dont use a piece of amunition.
This topic is quite absurd when the rules talk quite clearly about two differents properties.
The infusion of the artificer works as the Crossbow Expert in terms of the property of "loading ". Both specify to ignore the "loading" property, not the amunition.
So, you still need a free hand to recharge a one handed ranged weapon like the hand crossbow
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon" specify that you need to load, even if you dont use a piece of amunition.
But the verb “load” becomes meaningless if you aren’t loading a thing into the weapon. You are removing the object of the sentence and assuming the remaining words don’t change but that is grammatically incorrect...saying “you have to load”...”load what? It’s already there!”....”you have to load” sounds like you’re a robot with no understanding of the words you are speaking. Load is a meaningless verb without an object in the sentence to finish the clause
This topic is quite absurd when the rules talk quite clearly about two differents properties.
The infusion of the artificer works as the Crossbow Expert in terms of the property of "loading ". Both specify to ignore the "loading" property, not the amunition.
So, you still need a free hand to recharge a one handed ranged weapon like the hand crossbow
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon" specify that you need to load, even if you dont use a piece of amunition.
You still need a free hand so you can rack it like a shotgun (or however you imagine it) to “load” it with the magical ammunition that it creates.
I think the two hand argument should not rely on loading at all. You need a second hand to draw the bow back, regardless of whether after doing so you draw a projectile from a quiver and load it or not. And even for pistols, it depends on whether the tech has reached the self-cocking level yet. Early pistols had to be manually cocked.
This issue would not apply to slings or blowguns though...
Repeating Shot let’s you ignore the loading property, but the requirement for a free hand comes from the ammunition property which is not ignored.
So does the ammo appear in your hand then? Even for a sling or blowpipe?
You can fluff it however you like.
Historically, some slingers would also hold the bag of bullets in the same hand as the sling, specifically leaving the other hand free to load the weapon. I might skin a repeating sling as having a bag of bullets that never empties.
You know how some people put one of those mini bandolier straps on their shotguns to hold the shells for quick loading between shots? I always think it’s funny to imagine having one of those on the side of a blowgun that’s just always full.
But honestly, who puts repeating shot on either of those weapons?!? Neither has the loading property so half of the infusion is unused, and I find that infusion slots are always at such a premium that wasting anything is unfortunate, especially when there’s an alternative. Repeating shot gives at most a +1 bonus and the weapon requires Attunement, Enhanced Weapon can get up to +2 and requires no Attunement.
Repeating Shot let’s you ignore the loading property, but the requirement for a free hand comes from the ammunition property which is not ignored.
So does the ammo appear in your hand then? Even for a sling or blowpipe?
You can fluff it however you like.
Historically, some slingers would also hold the bag of bullets in the same hand as the sling, specifically leaving the other hand free to load the weapon. I might skin a repeating sling as having a bag of bullets that never empties.
You know how some people put one of those mini bandolier straps on their shotguns to hold the shells for quick loading between shots? I always think it’s funny to imagine having one of those on the side of a blowgun that’s just always full.
But honestly, who puts repeating shot on either of those weapons?!? Neither has the loading property so half of the infusion is unused, and I find that infusion slots are always at such a premium that wasting anything is unfortunate, especially when there’s an alternative. Repeating shot gives at most a +1 bonus and the weapon requires Attunement, Enhanced Weapon can get up to +2 and requires no Attunement.
It literally says '"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it."
So with a sling or blowpipe, what, exactly is the other hand doing? It isn't loading.
Repeating Shot let’s you ignore the loading property, but the requirement for a free hand comes from the ammunition property which is not ignored.
So does the ammo appear in your hand then? Even for a sling or blowpipe?
You can fluff it however you like.
Historically, some slingers would also hold the bag of bullets in the same hand as the sling, specifically leaving the other hand free to load the weapon. I might skin a repeating sling as having a bag of bullets that never empties.
You know how some people put one of those mini bandolier straps on their shotguns to hold the shells for quick loading between shots? I always think it’s funny to imagine having one of those on the side of a blowgun that’s just always full.
But honestly, who puts repeating shot on either of those weapons?!? Neither has the loading property so half of the infusion is unused, and I find that infusion slots are always at such a premium that wasting anything is unfortunate, especially when there’s an alternative. Repeating shot gives at most a +1 bonus and the weapon requires Attunement, Enhanced Weapon can get up to +2 and requires no Attunement.
I disagree that a weapon with an artificer property would cause the ammo to appear anywhere other than loaded into the weapon. You are technically correct in that the Infusion does not ignore the Ammunition property, but the requirement for the free hand is specifically to "load" the weapon, which the wording of the infusion clearly overrides by saying "if you do not load this weapon" implying you are not actually loading it. The thing that still matters is the "two-handed" property, which is not overridden, so any crossbow or bow other than a hand crossbow will still need two hands to fire (one hand on the bow, one pulling the draw string, or one hand holding the weapon, one on the trigger). The property clearly cancels the "loading" property (which is only a limit on how many times you can fire it per action), but the wording of the infusion also clearly invalidates some aspects of the ammunition property where that property requires you to load the weapon, as the infusion allows you to not load the weapon in order to fire it (it also doesn't consume ammunition, which clearly overrides another portion of the "ammunition" property as well.
I agree that placing this on a crossbow (other than hand) or a bow is useless except as a way to have unlimited magical ammunition, as those weapons still need two hands to fire due to the two-handed property
How are you going to ignore the actual text of the infusion?
Repeating Shot
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property (requires attunement)
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
The infusion will, quite literally, produce and load its own ammunition.
[edit] Iconarising, I wholly disagree on the value of using it on crossbows with the Two-Handed property. IMO, it is most valuable on a Crossbow, Heavy to fire that more than once per turn. Particularly if you're a Fighter/Artificer, or have a ranged Fighter or Ranger in your party.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Looking at the list of weapons, only bows have the ammunition property and not the loading one...all the “loading” property is is an additional limitation on certain weapons while you load them using the rules in the ammunition property (a better name might be “complex loading” based on the limitation). But that said the infusion has to affect any rule involving loading (including in the ammunition trait) because it literally removes the need to load the weapon at all
Looking at the list of weapons, only bows have the ammunition property and not the loading one...all loading is is an additional limitation on certain weapons while you load them using the rules in the ammunition property (a better name might be “complex loading” based on the limitation). But that said the infusion has to affect any rule involving loading (including in the ammunition trait) because it literally removes the need to load the weapon at all
How are you going to ignore the actual text of the infusion?
Repeating Shot
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property (requires attunement)
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
The infusion will, quite literally, produce and load its own ammunition.
[edit] Iconarising, I wholly disagree on the value of using it on crossbows with the Two-Handed property. IMO, it is most valuable on a Crossbow, Heavy to fire that more than once per turn. Particularly if you're a Fighter/Artificer, or have a ranged Fighter or Ranger in your party.
I see your point...but relevant to the discussion (the “free hand” issue) a crossbow and heavy crossbow will still need that second hand to fire the weapon
How are you going to ignore the actual text of the infusion?
Repeating Shot
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property (requires attunement)
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
The infusion will, quite literally, produce and load its own ammunition.
[edit] Iconarising, I wholly disagree on the value of using it on crossbows with the Two-Handed property. IMO, it is most valuable on a Crossbow, Heavy to fire that more than once per turn. Particularly if you're a Fighter/Artificer, or have a ranged Fighter or Ranger in your party.
It says it produces it, it never says it loads it for you.
How are you going to ignore the actual text of the infusion?
Repeating Shot
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property (requires attunement)
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
The infusion will, quite literally, produce and load its own ammunition.
[edit] Iconarising, I wholly disagree on the value of using it on crossbows with the Two-Handed property. IMO, it is most valuable on a Crossbow, Heavy to fire that more than once per turn. Particularly if you're a Fighter/Artificer, or have a ranged Fighter or Ranger in your party.
It says it produces it, it never says it loads it for you.
Sposta, it clearly does.
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon"--this should be immediately clear... you can't be in a situation in which you both aren't and are loading at the same time.
"it produces its own"--the weapon produces ammo. Why would it produce ammo outside of itself?
"automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it."--it produces ammo when you are making an attack with the weapon. You are making an attack with the weapon if you are making an attack roll. You are making an attack roll when you are actually firing the weapon.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How are you going to ignore the actual text of the infusion?
Repeating Shot
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property (requires attunement)
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
The infusion will, quite literally, produce and load its own ammunition.
[edit] Iconarising, I wholly disagree on the value of using it on crossbows with the Two-Handed property. IMO, it is most valuable on a Crossbow, Heavy to fire that more than once per turn. Particularly if you're a Fighter/Artificer, or have a ranged Fighter or Ranger in your party.
It says it produces it, it never says it loads it for you.
It says 'If you load no ammunition...' If you load no ammunition and the infusion loads no ammunition, does the weapon then fire unloaded? Occam's Razor. The infusion must load the ammunition for you. If it produced ammunition and you still had to load it yourself, it would be 'If you have no ammunition (or choose not to use the ammunition you have)....'
How are you going to ignore the actual text of the infusion?
Repeating Shot
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property (requires attunement)
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it.
If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
The infusion will, quite literally, produce and load its own ammunition.
[edit] Iconarising, I wholly disagree on the value of using it on crossbows with the Two-Handed property. IMO, it is most valuable on a Crossbow, Heavy to fire that more than once per turn. Particularly if you're a Fighter/Artificer, or have a ranged Fighter or Ranger in your party.
It says it produces it, it never says it loads it for you.
If you want to be that pedantic, then I could say it never says where it produces it; its equally likely that it produces the ammunition in the area it needs to be fired from as it does anywhere else where you would still have to load it. Also, since it says "If you load no ammunition", its implying that you don't have to load it. Saying that and then saying "you still have to load it" is a contradiction, and only one of those statements is published material, so I'm going with that one (ergo, its already loaded)
So there are three things being discussed here: Repeating Shot, Ammunition, and Loading. Let's break things down:
Repeating Shot:
This does three things:
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack
it ignores the loading property if it has it.
if you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
Ammunition
This creates caveats on the use of weapons with this property
You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon.
Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition.
Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon).
At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield.
If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon (see "Improvised Weapons" later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way.
Loading
This creates one caveat on weapons with this property:
Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
Now, point 2 of Repeating Shot lets us ignore the loading property altogether, it explicitly says that. So this means you can now fire as many pieces of ammunition as you have attacks (great with extra attack).
Point 3 says "if you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target." This doesn't negate the ammunition property, just some parts of it:
You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. This is ignored because you can now fire the weapon without ammunition because it makes its own.
Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. This can be ignored if you don't load a piece of ammunition.
Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). This is the one that seems to be causing the most discussion. You need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon, but you can choose not to load a weapon of repeating shot "if you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own" Thus if you load no ammunition, you do not need to pull ammunition from a case or quiver, and you do not need a free hand.
At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended ammunition by taking a minute to search the battlefield. This is moot because the ammunition vanishes
If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon (see "Improvised Weapons" later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way) Not relevant to Repeating shot.
Hopefully this clarifies the interaction. I feel if there's any disagreement, it's likely around point 3 above.
So much for ending the topic...
And the ammunition property has way more than 2 parts. There is the part about making ranged attacks, the part about expending ammo, the part about drawing and loading ammo as part of the attack (which requires a free hand), and the part about retrieving ammo. All the parts that involve ammo dont apply which leaves: can make ranged attacks.
This is good advice we should apply it to the rule in question: drawing and loading ammunition requires a free hand. The rule does not say that the weapon requires that hand for any other kind of prepation only for ammo. The weapon does not need ammo, ergo the weapon does not need a free hand.
The only ones applying more to a rule than what is written are the ones saying you need to load a weapon without ammo.
This topic is quite absurd when the rules talk quite clearly about two differents properties.
The infusion of the artificer works as the Crossbow Expert in terms of the property of "loading ". Both specify to ignore the "loading" property, not the amunition.
So, you still need a free hand to recharge a one handed ranged weapon like the hand crossbow
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon" specify that you need to load, even if you dont use a piece of amunition.
But the verb “load” becomes meaningless if you aren’t loading a thing into the weapon. You are removing the object of the sentence and assuming the remaining words don’t change but that is grammatically incorrect...saying “you have to load”...”load what? It’s already there!”....”you have to load” sounds like you’re a robot with no understanding of the words you are speaking. Load is a meaningless verb without an object in the sentence to finish the clause
You still need a free hand so you can rack it like a shotgun (or however you imagine it) to “load” it with the magical ammunition that it creates.
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I think the two hand argument should not rely on loading at all. You need a second hand to draw the bow back, regardless of whether after doing so you draw a projectile from a quiver and load it or not. And even for pistols, it depends on whether the tech has reached the self-cocking level yet. Early pistols had to be manually cocked.
This issue would not apply to slings or blowguns though...
Repeating Shot let’s you ignore the loading property, but the requirement for a free hand comes from the ammunition property which is not ignored.
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So does the ammo appear in your hand then? Even for a sling or blowpipe?
You can fluff it however you like.
Historically, some slingers would also hold the bag of bullets in the same hand as the sling, specifically leaving the other hand free to load the weapon. I might skin a repeating sling as having a bag of bullets that never empties.
You know how some people put one of those mini bandolier straps on their shotguns to hold the shells for quick loading between shots? I always think it’s funny to imagine having one of those on the side of a blowgun that’s just always full.
But honestly, who puts repeating shot on either of those weapons?!? Neither has the loading property so half of the infusion is unused, and I find that infusion slots are always at such a premium that wasting anything is unfortunate, especially when there’s an alternative. Repeating shot gives at most a +1 bonus and the weapon requires Attunement, Enhanced Weapon can get up to +2 and requires no Attunement.
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It literally says '"If you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it."
So with a sling or blowpipe, what, exactly is the other hand doing? It isn't loading.
I disagree that a weapon with an artificer property would cause the ammo to appear anywhere other than loaded into the weapon. You are technically correct in that the Infusion does not ignore the Ammunition property, but the requirement for the free hand is specifically to "load" the weapon, which the wording of the infusion clearly overrides by saying "if you do not load this weapon" implying you are not actually loading it. The thing that still matters is the "two-handed" property, which is not overridden, so any crossbow or bow other than a hand crossbow will still need two hands to fire (one hand on the bow, one pulling the draw string, or one hand holding the weapon, one on the trigger). The property clearly cancels the "loading" property (which is only a limit on how many times you can fire it per action), but the wording of the infusion also clearly invalidates some aspects of the ammunition property where that property requires you to load the weapon, as the infusion allows you to not load the weapon in order to fire it (it also doesn't consume ammunition, which clearly overrides another portion of the "ammunition" property as well.
I agree that placing this on a crossbow (other than hand) or a bow is useless except as a way to have unlimited magical ammunition, as those weapons still need two hands to fire due to the two-handed property
How are you going to ignore the actual text of the infusion?
The infusion will, quite literally, produce and load its own ammunition.
[edit] Iconarising, I wholly disagree on the value of using it on crossbows with the Two-Handed property. IMO, it is most valuable on a Crossbow, Heavy to fire that more than once per turn. Particularly if you're a Fighter/Artificer, or have a ranged Fighter or Ranger in your party.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Why does the Ammunition property even say anything about loading if loading is it's own property?
Sometimes, this game is bad.
Looking at the list of weapons, only bows have the ammunition property and not the loading one...all the “loading” property is is an additional limitation on certain weapons while you load them using the rules in the ammunition property (a better name might be “complex loading” based on the limitation). But that said the infusion has to affect any rule involving loading (including in the ammunition trait) because it literally removes the need to load the weapon at all
I see your point...but relevant to the discussion (the “free hand” issue) a crossbow and heavy crossbow will still need that second hand to fire the weapon
It says it produces it, it never says it loads it for you.
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Yeah, of course. Are we still talking about this only in reference to using a Shield?
[edit]
Sposta, it clearly does.
"If you load no ammunition in the weapon"--this should be immediately clear... you can't be in a situation in which you both aren't and are loading at the same time.
"it produces its own"--the weapon produces ammo. Why would it produce ammo outside of itself?
"automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it."--it produces ammo when you are making an attack with the weapon. You are making an attack with the weapon if you are making an attack roll. You are making an attack roll when you are actually firing the weapon.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It says 'If you load no ammunition...' If you load no ammunition and the infusion loads no ammunition, does the weapon then fire unloaded? Occam's Razor. The infusion must load the ammunition for you. If it produced ammunition and you still had to load it yourself, it would be 'If you have no ammunition (or choose not to use the ammunition you have)....'
If you want to be that pedantic, then I could say it never says where it produces it; its equally likely that it produces the ammunition in the area it needs to be fired from as it does anywhere else where you would still have to load it. Also, since it says "If you load no ammunition", its implying that you don't have to load it. Saying that and then saying "you still have to load it" is a contradiction, and only one of those statements is published material, so I'm going with that one (ergo, its already loaded)
So there are three things being discussed here: Repeating Shot, Ammunition, and Loading. Let's break things down:
Repeating Shot:
This does three things:
Ammunition
This creates caveats on the use of weapons with this property
Loading
This creates one caveat on weapons with this property:
Now, point 2 of Repeating Shot lets us ignore the loading property altogether, it explicitly says that. So this means you can now fire as many pieces of ammunition as you have attacks (great with extra attack).
Point 3 says "if you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own, automatically creating one piece of magic ammunition when you make a ranged attack with it. The ammunition created by the weapon vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target." This doesn't negate the ammunition property, just some parts of it:
This is ignored because you can now fire the weapon without ammunition because it makes its own.
This can be ignored if you don't load a piece of ammunition.
This is the one that seems to be causing the most discussion. You need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon, but you can choose not to load a weapon of repeating shot
"if you load no ammunition in the weapon, it produces its own"
Thus if you load no ammunition, you do not need to pull ammunition from a case or quiver, and you do not need a free hand.
This is moot because the ammunition vanishes
Not relevant to Repeating shot.
Hopefully this clarifies the interaction. I feel if there's any disagreement, it's likely around point 3 above.
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