If I am a WIS (or just non-INT) caster, and i take the Magic Initiate (Wizard) Feat, where a spell (chosen from that Feat) says "<Damage> + your spellcasting ability modifier", is this MY spellcasting modifier (i.e. WIS) or is it the type for the Class selected in the Magic Initiate Feat?
Seems a bit silly if it is the one for the Feat Class, as what's the damn point in taking this Feat then, if it doesn't align with your existing spellcasting ability modifier?
If it is the spellcasting ability modifier of the Feat Class and not my own, then the wording should be more specific, e.g. "<Damage> + the spellcasting ability modifier of the chosen/designated Class in the Feat"
Example:
Green Flame Blade
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier.
This spell’s damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target, and the fire damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.
It says in the feat that it is the spellcasting mod for the chosen class. I suspect to prevent abuse here and there. If you don't have a good spellcasting mod, the idea could be to pick a spell that doesn't require a save/attack roll (could pick up bless from a Cleric for example). Or maybe your char has a decent secondary stat (I have a dex fighter/rogue with decent charisma, he would have no issues with picking a bard spell trough this feat...).
As with most feats it's situational when to pick it and why you pick it.
I'm not certain what the question is? Perhaps the "what's the point if it doesn't align" part?
To keep things separate, let's first confirm that Magic Initiate very specifically mentions that the relevant spellcasting ability for the spells you learn from it is that of the class you chose when picking it (e.g., Intelligence if you picked Wizard cantrips).
Why would someone pick that varies a lot; I've seen a lot of different uses for it. For example:
Someone could get a cantrip or two with no relevant usage of ability modifiers, such as Prestidigitation or Mage Hand (a favorite of rogues that aren't Arcane Tricksters). A lot of useful spells there, from all classes (Guidance anyone? :p ).
Someone could have both their main class' ability score and the secondary Magic Initiate score high (more often the case with rolled stats), thus making full use of the extra options, especially the damaging cantrips.
Someone could simply find the option fitting solely on a character's background perspective. A boy that struggled in the wizard academy only to figure out studying isn't his style, but his blood is very potent, could be a Sorcerer and still have a couple of wizard remnants from his studies (although Ritual Caster feels more fitting in that specific example. Perhaps he becomes a fighter instead. :p )
My point is, there are a lot of reasons to pick Magic Initiate, even if it is not the most efficient usage of a feat if you only want another full-powered attack option.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, i guess i was just ranting a little bit, but i have seen a load of posts around on D&D forums about taking this (specifically Wizard) to get Green Flame Blade, or Booming Blade to supplement/maximise melee damage for Clerics. All posts seem to either imply, or directly state that you use 'your' spellcasting ability modifier (in this case WIS). I thought it sounded cool, but looking at the spell, it reads ambiguously. I agree that when taken in context of the Feat it would use that related spellcasting ability modifier, something i failed to consider. So i guess (shock, horror) the internet and its forums are not correct. Interesting part is, no one, and i mean no one i've seen talking about this combo seems to realise this.
I guess i was just shocked when I test added it to a copy of my character and got a -1 to the damage (my INT is 8, lol - brain trauma in my character, and me as well, i guess) :P
It's very likely they do know it wouldn't use their normal spellcasting ability but the benefit of having other cantrips outweighs the lower roll bonus/DC. For instance, Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade are relatively effective even with a low spellcasting ability. They piggyback off of a normal weapon attack. Likewise, a cantrip like Shocking Grasp is a good way to help a friend back off from a monster without wasting their action on Disengage, or shut down enemy spellcasters that might try to cast counterspell. Even if you have a 50% chance of hitting instead of your usual 65%, it's often still worth using.
To head off the next most common question: no, you can't cast the 1st level spell you learn from it with spell slots unless the class you chose in the feat matches one of your classes and that class learns spells rather than preparing them (e.g. you're a sorcerer and choose sorcerer for the feat.) In short, you have to follow the rules of your class's Spellcasting feature if you want to cast a spell using your spell slots.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, i guess i was just ranting a little bit, but i have seen a load of posts around on D&D forums about taking this (specifically Wizard) to get Green Flame Blade, or Booming Blade to supplement/maximise melee damage for Clerics. All posts seem to either imply, or directly state that you use 'your' spellcasting ability modifier (in this case WIS). I thought it sounded cool, but looking at the spell, it reads ambiguously. I agree that when taken in context of the Feat it would use that related spellcasting ability modifier, something i failed to consider. So i guess (shock, horror) the internet and its forums are not correct. Interesting part is, no one, and i mean no one i've seen talking about this combo seems to realise this.
I guess i was just shocked when I test added it to a copy of my character and got a -1 to the damage (my INT is 8, lol - brain trauma in my character, and me as well, i guess) :P
In almost all cases, when it talks about clerics taking magic initiate, it is for booming blade which does NOT depend on the casting stat and not Green flame blade which does. E.g. Nature cleric takes booming blade, another cantrip and 1st level 1/day spell from the wizard list to supplement their strikes with a staff enhanced with shillelagh.
On the other hand, an arcana cleric who picks a couple of wizard cantrips at character creation does use wisdom when casting them.
I have a warlock who dropped out of wizard school and he took the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat. His spells from the feat don’t require either an attack roll or a saving throw, so his lower intelligence doesn’t matter for the purpose of the feat. There are lots of great cantrips and first level spells that work very nicely this way, you just need to pick them carefully.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, i guess i was just ranting a little bit, but i have seen a load of posts around on D&D forums about taking this (specifically Wizard) to get Green Flame Blade, or Booming Blade to supplement/maximise melee damage for Clerics. All posts seem to either imply, or directly state that you use 'your' spellcasting ability modifier (in this case WIS). I thought it sounded cool, but looking at the spell, it reads ambiguously. I agree that when taken in context of the Feat it would use that related spellcasting ability modifier, something i failed to consider. So i guess (shock, horror) the internet and its forums are not correct. Interesting part is, no one, and i mean no one i've seen talking about this combo seems to realise this.
I guess i was just shocked when I test added it to a copy of my character and got a -1 to the damage (my INT is 8, lol - brain trauma in my character, and me as well, i guess) :P
Just remember that booming blade, green flame blade, and the rest of the SCAG cantrips are available on the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock spell lists. Sorcerer and Warlock both use Charisma as their spellcasting ability, which means that you would use your charisma modifier if you chose your spells from those. You would have to verify that any other cantrip and 1st level spell that you would have chosen off of the wizard list is also available from the corresponding list that you selected or choose something else from it, but it's another couple of options instead of wizard keying off of your -1. David42 did mention that Arcane domain does get wizard cantrips that key off of your wisdom. There are plenty of options available.
I wonder if the people that were working on the threads that you were reading were of the variety that intelligence was always at least 12 to get a +1 from it. The thought would be that they always wanted a certain amount of intelligence so that their style of play was always valid in their mind. I have a similar mindset with Constitution and wanting to ensure a reasonable amount of health over the course of the campaign, though I usually use 13 as the minimum since I would be intending to level it some (and I wouldn't normally add to the 8, 10, or 12 on a standard array build).
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Hi there,
If I am a WIS (or just non-INT) caster, and i take the Magic Initiate (Wizard) Feat, where a spell (chosen from that Feat) says "<Damage> + your spellcasting ability modifier", is this MY spellcasting modifier (i.e. WIS) or is it the type for the Class selected in the Magic Initiate Feat?
Seems a bit silly if it is the one for the Feat Class, as what's the damn point in taking this Feat then, if it doesn't align with your existing spellcasting ability modifier?
If it is the spellcasting ability modifier of the Feat Class and not my own, then the wording should be more specific, e.g. "<Damage> + the spellcasting ability modifier of the chosen/designated Class in the Feat"
Example:
Green Flame Blade
As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting ability modifier.
This spell’s damage increases when you reach higher levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target, and the fire damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level and 17th level.
Many Thanks. :)
It says in the feat that it is the spellcasting mod for the chosen class. I suspect to prevent abuse here and there. If you don't have a good spellcasting mod, the idea could be to pick a spell that doesn't require a save/attack roll (could pick up bless from a Cleric for example). Or maybe your char has a decent secondary stat (I have a dex fighter/rogue with decent charisma, he would have no issues with picking a bard spell trough this feat...).
As with most feats it's situational when to pick it and why you pick it.
I'm not certain what the question is? Perhaps the "what's the point if it doesn't align" part?
To keep things separate, let's first confirm that Magic Initiate very specifically mentions that the relevant spellcasting ability for the spells you learn from it is that of the class you chose when picking it (e.g., Intelligence if you picked Wizard cantrips).
Why would someone pick that varies a lot; I've seen a lot of different uses for it. For example:
Someone could get a cantrip or two with no relevant usage of ability modifiers, such as Prestidigitation or Mage Hand (a favorite of rogues that aren't Arcane Tricksters). A lot of useful spells there, from all classes (Guidance anyone? :p ).
Someone could have both their main class' ability score and the secondary Magic Initiate score high (more often the case with rolled stats), thus making full use of the extra options, especially the damaging cantrips.
Someone could simply find the option fitting solely on a character's background perspective. A boy that struggled in the wizard academy only to figure out studying isn't his style, but his blood is very potent, could be a Sorcerer and still have a couple of wizard remnants from his studies (although Ritual Caster feels more fitting in that specific example. Perhaps he becomes a fighter instead. :p )
My point is, there are a lot of reasons to pick Magic Initiate, even if it is not the most efficient usage of a feat if you only want another full-powered attack option.
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, i guess i was just ranting a little bit, but i have seen a load of posts around on D&D forums about taking this (specifically Wizard) to get Green Flame Blade, or Booming Blade to supplement/maximise melee damage for Clerics. All posts seem to either imply, or directly state that you use 'your' spellcasting ability modifier (in this case WIS). I thought it sounded cool, but looking at the spell, it reads ambiguously. I agree that when taken in context of the Feat it would use that related spellcasting ability modifier, something i failed to consider. So i guess (shock, horror) the internet and its forums are not correct. Interesting part is, no one, and i mean no one i've seen talking about this combo seems to realise this.
I guess i was just shocked when I test added it to a copy of my character and got a -1 to the damage (my INT is 8, lol - brain trauma in my character, and me as well, i guess) :P
It's very likely they do know it wouldn't use their normal spellcasting ability but the benefit of having other cantrips outweighs the lower roll bonus/DC. For instance, Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade are relatively effective even with a low spellcasting ability. They piggyback off of a normal weapon attack. Likewise, a cantrip like Shocking Grasp is a good way to help a friend back off from a monster without wasting their action on Disengage, or shut down enemy spellcasters that might try to cast counterspell. Even if you have a 50% chance of hitting instead of your usual 65%, it's often still worth using.
To head off the next most common question: no, you can't cast the 1st level spell you learn from it with spell slots unless the class you chose in the feat matches one of your classes and that class learns spells rather than preparing them (e.g. you're a sorcerer and choose sorcerer for the feat.) In short, you have to follow the rules of your class's Spellcasting feature if you want to cast a spell using your spell slots.
In almost all cases, when it talks about clerics taking magic initiate, it is for booming blade which does NOT depend on the casting stat and not Green flame blade which does. E.g. Nature cleric takes booming blade, another cantrip and 1st level 1/day spell from the wizard list to supplement their strikes with a staff enhanced with shillelagh.
On the other hand, an arcana cleric who picks a couple of wizard cantrips at character creation does use wisdom when casting them.
I have a warlock who dropped out of wizard school and he took the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat. His spells from the feat don’t require either an attack roll or a saving throw, so his lower intelligence doesn’t matter for the purpose of the feat. There are lots of great cantrips and first level spells that work very nicely this way, you just need to pick them carefully.
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Just remember that booming blade, green flame blade, and the rest of the SCAG cantrips are available on the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock spell lists. Sorcerer and Warlock both use Charisma as their spellcasting ability, which means that you would use your charisma modifier if you chose your spells from those. You would have to verify that any other cantrip and 1st level spell that you would have chosen off of the wizard list is also available from the corresponding list that you selected or choose something else from it, but it's another couple of options instead of wizard keying off of your -1. David42 did mention that Arcane domain does get wizard cantrips that key off of your wisdom. There are plenty of options available.
I wonder if the people that were working on the threads that you were reading were of the variety that intelligence was always at least 12 to get a +1 from it. The thought would be that they always wanted a certain amount of intelligence so that their style of play was always valid in their mind. I have a similar mindset with Constitution and wanting to ensure a reasonable amount of health over the course of the campaign, though I usually use 13 as the minimum since I would be intending to level it some (and I wouldn't normally add to the 8, 10, or 12 on a standard array build).