So you agree there is no contradiction. Thus general vs specific is never at play. Both requirements apply. Redundant? Yes. Contradictory? No.
Sage Advice fully support this. The shield described works because it is meeting both the requirements to serve as a foci, and also is being handled in a way compatible with normal spellcasting rules.
I should point out that it helps when you realize that a holy symbol is not a spellcasting focus. It can only work as one under the right conditions. The item description tells you what those conditions are. That's it. They're not at all telling us how spellcasting foci work. it simply tells us what is required for the symbol to even start functioning as a foci to begin with.
I don't agree, also the rules clearly list holy symbol as a Spellcasting Focus despite what you claim.
I should point out that it helps when you realize that a holy symbol is not a spellcasting focus. It can only work as one under the right conditions. The item description tells you what those conditions are. That's it. They're not at all telling us how spellcasting foci work. it simply tells us what is required for the symbol to even start functioning as a foci to begin with.
It's unclear what point you are even trying to make but this whole line of thinking is false. The holy symbol is the spellcasting focus in the described situation. Are you trying to say that there is actually no such thing as an item called a "spellcasting focus"? Like, none of the items listed under Arcane Focus are spellcasting foci, none of the items listed under Druidic Focus are spellcasting foci and so on?
You are misunderstanding the phrasing that is used. When it says that a Wizard can use an orb as a spellcasting focus, that doesn't mean that the orb is not a focus. It is a focus -- but not everyone can use it that way -- but the Wizard can.
In the hands of a wizard, the holy symbol is NOT a spellcasting focus. Similarly, while a holy symbol is tucked away in the clerics backpack it is also not a spellcasting focus.
The item description tells use exactly when it is a spellcasting focus.
"A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
The only time a holy symbol is a spellcasting focus is when a cleric or paladin holds it in hand, wears it visibly, or bears it on a shield.
This is not something I would expect to get any kickback on. It is black and white in the text. There is no other way to interpret that.
So you agree there is no contradiction. Thus general vs specific is never at play. Both requirements apply. Redundant? Yes. Contradictory? No.
Sage Advice fully support this. The shield described works because it is meeting both the requirements to serve as a foci, and also is being handled in a way compatible with normal spellcasting rules.
I should point out that it helps when you realize that a holy symbol is not a spellcasting focus. It can only work as one under the right conditions. The item description tells you what those conditions are. That's it. They're not at all telling us how spellcasting foci work. it simply tells us what is required for the symbol to even start functioning as a foci to begin with.
I don't agree, also the rules clearly list holy symbol as a Spellcasting Focus despite what you claim.
The items listed therin have very specific rules for when they act as spellcasting foci. They're not just always spellcasting foci period.
I implore you to read the item descriptions. There are class restrictions on them as to who can use which items as spellcasting foci, and it gives guidance on which scenarios those classes can use them as foci in. The item descriptions give all this information very clearly.
But what is your point? Ok, so you are going through a lot of trouble to make sure that people know that "spellcasting focus" is not the name of a specific item in the game like "Dust of Disappearance" or "Bag of Holding" or "Ring of Invisibility". Spellcasting Focus refers to a category of items. It's a game concept that enables a character to cast spells that require material components without actually possessing those components. The main purpose of this is so that players don't have to keep track of hundreds of different components in their inventory and explain how they have access to all of them, where and how they are stored, and so on. It's a rule simplification that is intended to increase the fun. But everyone already understands this and it has no bearing whatsoever on the previous discussion.
The rules for a spellcasting focus require a free hand to handle the focus when casting a spell with an M component. The more specific rules regarding the Holy Symbol provide an exception to that -- when using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required. None of this stuff that you have been rambling about recently has any relevance to that discussion.
But what is your point? Ok, so you are going through a lot of trouble to make sure that people know that "spellcasting focus" is not the name of a specific item in the game like "Dust of Disappearance" or "Bag of Holding" or "Ring of Invisibility". Spellcasting Focus refers to a category of items. It's a game concept that enables a character to cast spells that require material components without actually possessing those components. The main purpose of this is so that players don't have to keep track of hundreds of different components in their inventory and explain how they have access to all of them, where and how they are stored, and so on. It's a rule simplification that is intended to increase the fun. But everyone already understands this and it has no bearing whatsoever on the previous discussion.
You're right that what you're talking about here doesn't have bearing on this topic. 100% right.
... it also isn't what I was talking about at any point.
The rules for a spellcasting focus require a free hand to handle the focus when casting a spell with an M component. The more specific rules regarding the Holy Symbol provide an exception to that -- when using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required.
Nope. You're inventing this. No written text in any book says "using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required". This is pure fabrication on your part. Homebrew, if you will.
None of this stuff that you have been rambling about recently has any relevance to that discussion.
You may want to try rereading it, because you clearly didn't understand the point. I can explain it again, should phrasing it some new way might help you?
A holy symbol is not always a spellcasting foci. Neither is an Arcane Focus, or a Druidic focus. they're only spellcasting foci when you use them in a way that their item description tells you allows to to serve AS a spellcasting focus. The item text of these items tells us when and how they're eligible to be spellcasting foci. That's ALL those text tell us. They do NOT tell us how spellcasting foci work generally, no, that is covered in the material components section. So we have two important rules.
The requirements to use a Holy Symbol, Druidic Focus, or Arcane focus AS a spellcasting focus are found in their respective item descriptions.
Rules for how a spellcasting focus are used are in chapter 10.
There is no conflict between these rules. One tells you how spellcasting foci works. The other tells you in which conditions the item you have gets to count as a spellcasting foci.
This is undeniably true if you decide to engage with the argument being presented.
The requirements to use a Holy Symbol, Druidic Focus, or Arcane focus AS a spellcasting focus are found in their respective item descriptions.
Rules for how a spellcasting focus are used are in chapter 10.
Pointing to a general rule when specific rule contradict it is failing to grasps how Specific Beat General works. What it says is that a spellcaster must have a hand free to hold a spellcasting focus but to use holy sumbol you must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield. Essentially, to use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus you must A, B or C.
Specific Beat General: Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
So you agree there is no contradiction. Thus general vs specific is never at play. Both requirements apply. Redundant? Yes. Contradictory? No.
Sage Advice fully support this. The shield described works because it is meeting both the requirements to serve as a foci, and also is being handled in a way compatible with normal spellcasting rules.
I should point out that it helps when you realize that a holy symbol is not a spellcasting focus. It can only work as one under the right conditions. The item description tells you what those conditions are. That's it. They're not at all telling us how spellcasting foci work. it simply tells us what is required for the symbol to even start functioning as a foci to begin with.
I don't agree, also the rules clearly list holy symbol as a Spellcasting Focus despite what you claim.
The items listed therin have very specific rules for when they act as spellcasting foci. They're not just always spellcasting foci period.
I implore you to read the item descriptions. There are class restrictions on them as to who can use which items as spellcasting foci, and it gives guidance on which scenarios those classes can use them as foci in. The item descriptions give all this information very clearly.
A holy symbol is a spellcasting focus for the context discussed here, the rules for them say ''To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.'' So trying to claim an arcane focus or holy symbol is not a spellcasting focus is not only incorrect but beside the point.
The rules for a spellcasting focus require a free hand to handle the focus when casting a spell with an M component. The more specific rules regarding the Holy Symbol provide an exception to that -- when using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required.
Nope. You're inventing this. No written text in any book says "using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required". This is pure fabrication on your part. Homebrew, if you will.
Incorrect. In fact, it's exactly what it says. Perhaps homebrew doesn't mean what you think it means.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus
A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, orbear it on a shield
One rule requires a free hand to hold a focus. The second rule specifies that in this case holding the focus is not required. It's right there, I've cut and pasted the rules directly onto this post for your convenience.
It was good of you to rephrase the point that you were trying to make -- it is definitely more clear now what you are getting at. Unfortunately, it's just not correct.
[ The item descriptions ] do NOT tell us how spellcasting foci work generally, no, that is covered in the material components section.
This part actually is correct. The Material Components section does indeed tell us how spellcasting foci work generally, and the item descriptions do not do that. Instead, the item descriptions tell us specifically how that particular focus works. As with all item descriptions, specific beats general.
The rules for a spellcasting focus require a free hand to handle the focus when casting a spell with an M component. The more specific rules regarding the Holy Symbol provide an exception to that -- when using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required.
Nope. You're inventing this. No written text in any book says "using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required". This is pure fabrication on your part. Homebrew, if you will.
Incorrect. In fact, it's exactly what it says.
Go ahead and provide the rules quote that says "using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required" as you've claimed now several times appears in the rulebook. Book and page number please and thank you.
[ The item descriptions ] do NOT tell us how spellcasting foci work generally, no, that is covered in the material components section.
This part actually is correct. The Material Components section does indeed tell us how spellcasting foci work generally, and the item descriptions do not do that.
Sure, yeah.
Instead, the item descriptions tell us specifically how that particular focus works. As with all item descriptions, specific beats general.
But it doesn't. Absent entirely is the description telling anything at all about how spellcasting foci work. It says nothing, at all, whatsoever, even a little, about how spellcasting foci work.
It tells us what needs to be done to even allow it to be a spellcasting foci. Same as the other two, druidic and arcane foci tell us what is required to use them as a spellcasting foci. That's the only thing the item description tells us. How they get to qualify as a spellcasting foci.
Go ahead and provide the rules quote that says "using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required" as you've claimed now several times appears in the rulebook. Book and page number please and thank you.
Lol, this is literally just a giant facepalm moment as you've been given this information several times now. I just put it in a nice blockquote for you in the previous post. That text appears in the PHB, Page 151.
But it doesn't. Absent entirely is the description telling anything at all about how spellcasting foci work. It says nothing, at all, whatsoever, even a little, about how spellcasting foci work.
It tells us what needs to be done to even allow it to be a spellcasting foci. Same as the other two, druidic and arcane foci tell us what is required to use them as a spellcasting foci. That's the only thing the item description tells us. How they get to qualify as a spellcasting foci.
[REDACTED]
The bits of text which tell us how an item qualifies as a spellcasting focus appear in Chapter 3 within the class descriptions. For example, for the cleric we have this: "You can use a holy symbol (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells."
The text that we've been discussing appears in Chapter 5. Those are item descriptions. Like all item descriptions, this text describes how the item is used.
The entire rulebook is set up this way. We have general rules. Then we have things like item descriptions, feats, class abilities, spells and so on which describe the specific rules for those items. The rulebook also clearly states that specific beats general, mostly so that they are able to organize the rules in precisely this manner.
If you believe a contributor's behavior violates the Site Rules & Guidelines it is best to simply report it.
Commenting about another's behavior is not constructive to the discussion at hand and potentially a violation in and of itself.
I'm not certain if you replied to my comment but I will assume that you did.
I would rather be the outside party that makes two arguing parties reconsider their approach to their discussion when it becomes repetitive, than report their posts. That should really be a last resort unless the transgression is severe - which it is not here.
I'm not here to infringe on anyone's right to post and argue about the topic, but there comes a point where a heated debate becomes a deterrent to others to post because they don't want to be involved. I believe you should consider that as well.
I don't agree, also the rules clearly list holy symbol as a Spellcasting Focus despite what you claim.
In the hands of a wizard, the holy symbol is NOT a spellcasting focus. Similarly, while a holy symbol is tucked away in the clerics backpack it is also not a spellcasting focus.
The item description tells use exactly when it is a spellcasting focus.
"A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
The only time a holy symbol is a spellcasting focus is when a cleric or paladin holds it in hand, wears it visibly, or bears it on a shield.
This is not something I would expect to get any kickback on. It is black and white in the text. There is no other way to interpret that.
I got quotes!
The items listed therin have very specific rules for when they act as spellcasting foci. They're not just always spellcasting foci period.
I implore you to read the item descriptions. There are class restrictions on them as to who can use which items as spellcasting foci, and it gives guidance on which scenarios those classes can use them as foci in. The item descriptions give all this information very clearly.
I got quotes!
But what is your point? Ok, so you are going through a lot of trouble to make sure that people know that "spellcasting focus" is not the name of a specific item in the game like "Dust of Disappearance" or "Bag of Holding" or "Ring of Invisibility". Spellcasting Focus refers to a category of items. It's a game concept that enables a character to cast spells that require material components without actually possessing those components. The main purpose of this is so that players don't have to keep track of hundreds of different components in their inventory and explain how they have access to all of them, where and how they are stored, and so on. It's a rule simplification that is intended to increase the fun. But everyone already understands this and it has no bearing whatsoever on the previous discussion.
The rules for a spellcasting focus require a free hand to handle the focus when casting a spell with an M component. The more specific rules regarding the Holy Symbol provide an exception to that -- when using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required. None of this stuff that you have been rambling about recently has any relevance to that discussion.
You're right that what you're talking about here doesn't have bearing on this topic. 100% right.
... it also isn't what I was talking about at any point.
Nope. You're inventing this. No written text in any book says "using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required". This is pure fabrication on your part. Homebrew, if you will.
You may want to try rereading it, because you clearly didn't understand the point. I can explain it again, should phrasing it some new way might help you?
A holy symbol is not always a spellcasting foci. Neither is an Arcane Focus, or a Druidic focus. they're only spellcasting foci when you use them in a way that their item description tells you allows to to serve AS a spellcasting focus. The item text of these items tells us when and how they're eligible to be spellcasting foci. That's ALL those text tell us. They do NOT tell us how spellcasting foci work generally, no, that is covered in the material components section. So we have two important rules.
There is no conflict between these rules. One tells you how spellcasting foci works. The other tells you in which conditions the item you have gets to count as a spellcasting foci.
This is undeniably true if you decide to engage with the argument being presented.
I got quotes!
Pointing to a general rule when specific rule contradict it is failing to grasps how Specific Beat General works. What it says is that a spellcaster must have a hand free to hold a spellcasting focus but to use holy sumbol you must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield. Essentially, to use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus you must A, B or C.
A holy symbol is a spellcasting focus for the context discussed here, the rules for them say ''To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.'' So trying to claim an arcane focus or holy symbol is not a spellcasting focus is not only incorrect but beside the point.
Incorrect. In fact, it's exactly what it says. Perhaps homebrew doesn't mean what you think it means.
One rule requires a free hand to hold a focus. The second rule specifies that in this case holding the focus is not required. It's right there, I've cut and pasted the rules directly onto this post for your convenience.
It was good of you to rephrase the point that you were trying to make -- it is definitely more clear now what you are getting at. Unfortunately, it's just not correct.
This part actually is correct. The Material Components section does indeed tell us how spellcasting foci work generally, and the item descriptions do not do that. Instead, the item descriptions tell us specifically how that particular focus works. As with all item descriptions, specific beats general.
Go ahead and provide the rules quote that says "using a Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus the free hand is not required" as you've claimed now several times appears in the rulebook. Book and page number please and thank you.
Sure, yeah.
But it doesn't. Absent entirely is the description telling anything at all about how spellcasting foci work. It says nothing, at all, whatsoever, even a little, about how spellcasting foci work.
It tells us what needs to be done to even allow it to be a spellcasting foci. Same as the other two, druidic and arcane foci tell us what is required to use them as a spellcasting foci. That's the only thing the item description tells us. How they get to qualify as a spellcasting foci.
I got quotes!
Lol, this is literally just a giant facepalm moment as you've been given this information several times now. I just put it in a nice blockquote for you in the previous post. That text appears in the PHB, Page 151.
[REDACTED]
The bits of text which tell us how an item qualifies as a spellcasting focus appear in Chapter 3 within the class descriptions. For example, for the cleric we have this: "You can use a holy symbol (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells."
The text that we've been discussing appears in Chapter 5. Those are item descriptions. Like all item descriptions, this text describes how the item is used.
The entire rulebook is set up this way. We have general rules. Then we have things like item descriptions, feats, class abilities, spells and so on which describe the specific rules for those items. The rulebook also clearly states that specific beats general, mostly so that they are able to organize the rules in precisely this manner.
Honestly, at this point it feels like a troll post chain that detracts the actual answers and discussions going on in this thread earlier.
Can we just... leave it as is?
If you believe a contributor's behavior violates the Site Rules & Guidelines it is best to simply report it.
Commenting about another's behavior is not constructive to the discussion at hand and potentially a violation in and of itself.
It is in fact a violation.
So please just keep talking about somatic components and foci.
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I'm not certain if you replied to my comment but I will assume that you did.
I would rather be the outside party that makes two arguing parties reconsider their approach to their discussion when it becomes repetitive, than report their posts. That should really be a last resort unless the transgression is severe - which it is not here.
I'm not here to infringe on anyone's right to post and argue about the topic, but there comes a point where a heated debate becomes a deterrent to others to post because they don't want to be involved. I believe you should consider that as well.
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