Wasn't sure if this should go here.. or tips and tricks. Felt like here was closer. I wanted to check if my understanding of Improvsed weapons, Thrown improvise weapons, Acid/Alch firre flasks is correct! So I hope ya’ll will help me out. Also maybe ball bearing
First properties Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. or example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.
From Improvised Weapons: If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
Acid Flask As an action, you can splash the contents of this vial onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw the vial up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage.
So. Improvised weapons. Unless your GM decices it is close to a weapon with finesse (say a kitchen knife and a dagger for instance), then it will use STR to hit in melee. AND if you chose to throw it, it becomes an improvised thrown weapon. So it would be Str to hit and damage still. Correct? Because it is now a Improvised weapon with the Throw property (because its being thrown) as per Improvised weapon section. (so d4+str)
Is that correct? or would the inherent fact that improvised weapons are not a "weapon" until used, mean that any and all thrown improvised weapons--which use ranged attack rolls, be Dex based not str and never off the option (baring the strange fineese situation)? (and there is no method to get dex to hit in melee, baring said fineese attachment via GM fiat yes?)
So, Acid Flask (alch fire-and anything like those (though I don’t think there are any?). When thrown it statesss its an ranged attack, as an Improvised Weapon. So per improvised weapon rules, it would be a thrown weapon. So STR to hit (or Dex if the GM would like as it is a Ranged attack. Seemingly it could be either due to the two rule sets). Then D4+STR on impact + whatever the flask itself does. The acid entry says 20ft. Is that a specific that overrides the general Improvised weapon 20/60 rules? I was assuming that is just stating the normal 20 without disadvantage. As its an improvised weapon. But I could see it being a specific that overrode the general.
As a bonus Question. Sharpshooter feat, does that work with Improvised Thrown weapons? It states “ranged weapon attack rolls” when you use an improvised thrown weapon it is in that instance a thrown (ranged) weapon correct? So it should be able to get all 3 benefits of the feat. Resulting in -5 to hit, and a d4+str+10 bludgeon + 2d6 acid (or alch fire). Correct? assuming acid flask/alch are 20/60, then I could throw up to 60ft with no disadvantage?
Last question. Ball Bearings, is there any compelling in game reason you could not throw this as an improvised thrown weapon doing d4+str? It is light, but I think the standardized rule on improvised thrown is a d4. I could certainly see a GM making it a 0d4 due to light weight-which I wouldn’t’ have a problem with. But basic rules wise would it be a d4 conventially speaking? This would also apply to the previous question. Sharpshooter with ballbearings would be just wonderful Would having Tavern Brawler feat change your mind as to thet damage die if you were the GM?
These are all questions for my Alchemist Artificer I’m building. She wants to rock some improvised weapons of various types, as well as Alchemical Weapons. She’s a mechanic engineering girl so she has some muscles on her. (Shooting for 14str, 12dx, 16 int but I haven’t played with stats yet. Probably variant human for the Tavern Brawler feat.) I am fully aware the damage output isn’t going to be amazing, but it is immensely amusing character idea.
Yeah, improvised weapons don't have the finesse property, so throwing the flask is strength to hit.
A thrown acid flask does not deal 1d4+STR damage and does not have a range of 20/60 feet. It deals 2d6 acid damage and has a range of 20 feet. Both specific rules of the acid flask override the general rules of improvised thrown weapons.
Most of Sharpshooter works with any ranged weapon attack roll. Improvised thrown weapons require you to make a ranged attack, so they are included. The third part of Sharpshooter which allows you to take a to-hit penalty for more damage does not work with improvised thrown weapons, because it works not with ranged attack rolls but with attacks with a ranged weapon that you're proficient in. Improvised thrown weapons are not ranged weapons, so this part of Sharpshooter doesn't apply to them (additionally, it requires you to be proficient with the ranged weapon in question, and without Tavern Brawler, no one is ever proficient with improvised weapons). A note: thrown weapons are never ranged weapons. Even if you make a ranged attack roll with them, they are still melee weapons, so the third benefit of Sharpshooter doesn't apply to handaxes, daggers, javelins, etc.
Re: ball bearings, throwing a bag of ball bearings as an improvised weapon sounds fine. If you're asking about an individual ball bearing, that's up to the individual DM. The rules on improvised weapons say this: "An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands." Personally, I do not believe a normal sized character could ever be said to "wield" a single ball bearing, and would not allow it to be used as an improvised weapon.
Huh. So throwing an empty vial would be d4+StR. while throwing an acid flask would be only 2d6? or is the 2d6 overriding the base D4, but you'd still add str? Max range 20 solid. Reading as a whole specific overridding general, It would override the damage dice with the 2d6 but I don't think it would change the normal application for the rest of the ranged attack--Would it? Its just like any other damage die replacement effect? If it did overridie completely it has some odd interactions such as---
What about the Alchemist Fire then? If it the item's effect isn't a rider, then on hit Alchemist fire does nothing? ". On a hit, the target takes 1d4 fire damage at the start of each of its turns." This was part of the reason I believed these items followed normal improvised throwing weapons--because otherwise this does nothing on hit, which feels like it breaks normal impact of a weapon rules? IF the item only replaces the damage dice (as the above example 2d6+STR acid) would it just be a 0d0+str on impact, then 1d4fire per round as normal? Or does it just do nothing until the fire? hum. wonky and slightly complicated. Shame they aren't just extraneous rider effects. That would warrent their cost, and also cause less rule weirdness.
Good catch with the sharpshooter. I didn't notice the verbage change on the last portion.
The acid flask text tells you what happens when you hit with it. It's just 2d6 acid damage. Alchemist's fire also tells you what happens when it hits. The target takes 1d4 fire damage at the start of each of its turns, etc.
It's not at all wonky or complicated. The text says exactly what happens. You're making it more complicated than it is by trying to introduce other effects :p
Coming from a different system, it just feels very weird to reference Improvised Weapon rules---then ignore almsot all of them. Seems like it would've been easier to say "no profiency" since I think thats all those rules amount to with them? Though then I guess it would be harder to get profiency in them (As you can not train that via downtime. a nd I think Tavern Brawler is the only method?)
Thanks for your input!
EDIT PS: Then I guess Oil Flasks also won't do normal thrown flask damage? Only covering them with oil, not the d4+str? " Make a ranged attack against a target creature or object, treating the oil as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target is covered in oil." Shame, I loved the idea of hurling oil flasks at enemies for my attack, while comboing with a fire caster
Back up a little here, let's go one step at a time.
Ranged attacks don't automatically use Dexterity, ranged weapons do. See Basic Rules Chapter 9.
Thrown weapons are not automatically ranged weapons merely because they are thrown at a range. A Dart is a ranged weapon and can benefit from Sharpshooter. A Dagger is a melee weapon, even when thrown, and cannot.
Throwing a melee weapon with the property Thrown does not give the option to use your melee stat ("...you canuse the same ability modifier..."), it requires you to use your melee stat ("you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon..."). The only ways to use Dexterity on a Thrown weapon are (1) if you use Dexterity to attack in melee with it (due to it being a Finesse weapon, or some other feature which allows you to use Dexterity for melee attacks), or (2) if the Thrown weapon is a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon (see Dart).
Not everything you throw instantly assumes the Thrown property. You can throw your longsword as an awkward improvised weapon, it doesn't mean that your DM will allow you to make that ranged attack using Strength. The DM is of course free to decide that the improvised sword has that property, but I wouldn't count on it.
Acid (Vial) does not specify whether it is an improvised melee weapon or an improvised ranged weapon. The item description describes attacking both in melee (5 feet) and at range, but even the melee attack is still described as "splashing" (e.g., throwing?), so....I think there's good reason for your DM to decide it's an improvised ranged weapon? If that's the case, then it uses Dexterity for attack rolls. Either way, it makes no mention of treating it as an improvised weapon with the Throw property.
Nah, InquisitiveCoder's correction was good. The very page you cite says "the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity." Ranged weapon attack != an attack with a ranged weapon.
The improvised weapon rules about throwing things without the thrown property don't say anything about overriding the above.
Throwing a longsword uses DEX? Alchemist fire and acid vials add DEX to damage?
I would have said the same as Chicken if I had not double checked and read it myself. It is all here. Ranged attacks always default to DEX. Weapon attacks always add mod to damage.
So.. if alch fire adds dex... is that adding dex every round? Or just the first round? (also does that mean Oil Flasks do some sort of damage on impact?)
Sorry, I was misreading Chapter 9. The division between "ranged weapon attack" and "attack with a ranged weapon" always kind of confuses me if I don't stop to compare it to Sharpshooter, and I think I got ahead of myself.
Sharpshooter uses both: it talks about "ranged weapons attacks" (no disadvantage on long distance; ignore up to 3/4 cover) and "attack[s] with a ranged weapon" (-5 to hit for +10 damage).
So... I guess by default, if an attack is being made at range (as opposed to being a melee attack with or without extra reach), it attacks with Dexterity. Improvised weapons like thrown swords or acid vials, ranged weapons like bows and darts, melee weapons designed to be thrown like daggers... all Dex.
Where I'm still scratching my head is for non-Finesse melee weapons with Thrown, like the Handaxe. It's a melee weapon without Finesse, so by default, you attack with it in melee using Strength. If you throw it as an improvised weapon, just like throwing a sword, that should be a ranged attack.... use Dex. But, unlike the sword, the handaxe has the Thrown property, which again, does not allow you to choose to use Dex. Right there in Thrown's description, it uses the handaxe as an example of "you use your Strength," not "you canchoose to use your Strength."
I guess I just never noticed that Thrown is kind of if anything a negative weapon property, like Loading. Sure, on the one hand Thrown lets you throw a melee weapon without having to attack with it as an improvised weapon (probably dropping it to 1d4 damage). But on the other hand, it often entirely removes the ability to use Dexterity for a ranged attack, which is arguably a nerf? I dunno, just weird.
And yes I agree about acid doing 2d6+Dex. I wouldn't have thought so, since I thought Acid was an item and not a weapon... but it says right there in its description that you should treat it as an improvised weapon, so there it is!
And while we're talking about Thrown, I just want to use the opportunity to mention how weird it is that Nets and Darts have the Thrown property. Like, it literally has zero effect for them, since they're both already ranged weapons, and Thrown is a property which only has relevance to melee weapons. I think that whoever tacked that on in the editing process conflated weapons that are thrown with the Thrown property, but it certainly left a head scratcher!
I don't see the Thrown property as being a nerf. Take our handaxe: its primary purpose is as a melee weapon, and it's not a Finesse weapon, so whoever is wielding it probably has a higher STR than they do DEX (or else they'd go with a Finesse weapon). It's a way to give the fighter in plate armor with 10 DEX some efficacy with all the javelins their background gives them.
But, I do not like this rule that every ranged weapon attack is DEX without some specific property saying otherwise. What makes more sense to me, and how I will certainly run things at my table if it ever comes up, is that anything thrown is STR without some specific property saying otherwise (e.g. Finesse). Or, to put it another way, if you're throwing it, it has the Thrown property, period.
I guess "nerf" is kind of a strong word for it... but I have found myself frustrated on several occasions that you can't throw Javelins with Dex, requiring you to wield a shortbow instead if that's what you're after. Say, a Dex-based Lizardfolk scout... they can make javelins out of beasts they kill, but not arrows, which may be completely useless for them since Javelins are always Strength based attacks.
So.. if alch fire adds dex... is that adding dex every round? Or just the first round? (also does that mean Oil Flasks do some sort of damage on impact?)
It does the same damage every turn, that damage is weapon attack damage, weapon attack damage adds modifier. If you have to justify it, consider your throw accuracy and what part is on fire.
Oil is a trickier question. It doesn't do damage on hit (alch fire does, it is just delayed), so I think the answer is no.
And while we're talking about Thrown, I just want to use the opportunity to mention how weird it is that Nets and Darts have the Thrown property. Like, it literally has zero effect for them, since they're both already ranged weapons, and Thrown is a property which only has relevance to melee weapons. I think that whoever tacked that on in the editing process conflated weapons that are thrown with the Thrown property, but it certainly left a head scratcher!
Every ranged weapon has either the Thrown or Ammunition property so that you know how the ranged attack is made. Melee attacks don't require that kind of elaboration because there's only one way of performing them.
As far as javelins go, DEX doesn't make much sense; you mainly want a strong arm, and the rest is practice. Quick reflexes and a great sense of balance won't help with that at all.
I can understand the frustration with how the game incentivizes going all in on only one of STR or DEX and the effects that has on weapon choices though. In reality improving one aspect of your physical abilities will improve the others to some degree as well, so the way the game forces you to prioritize them doesn't make much sense. I think it would've been better overall to only use proficiency bonus for attack rolls/damage rolls/AC and have strength requirements for equipment, but that probably would've been too much of a break from tradition to survive playtesting. Would've solved a lot of issues with MAD classes like Monk, prevented weird scenarios like 8 STR characters being able to use longbows effectively and generally given players more freedom over how to allocate their scores (or pick feats). Oh well.
Mostly right. But throwing things without the thrown tag doesn’t mean you can’t do it, it just means it’s improvised and uses DEX for attack and damage (1d4 damage die). No improvised weapon actually has the thrown tag (or any tag).
I don’t think any ranged weapons have the finesse tag (though strength-based longbows could be interesting), so that part of the flowchart isn’t necessary.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that no improvised weapon has the Thrown tag, it's arguable whether improvised weapons might be assigned properties by the DM that fit them (2-handed, for example, for a heavy tree branch?).
But that flow chart does over complicate some things, oversimplify others, and get others wrong. For example, it doesn't account for the fact that you might be using Charisma to attack as a Hexblade or Wisdom wielding Shillelagh. A ranged weapon with Finesse isn't something that actually exists, so while it's theoretically true that such a weapon would let you use Strength, that's not a useful branch. There's no rule that you can't throw something without the Thrown tag, that's inaccurate. Ranged weapons with the Thrown tag (darts, nets) use Dexterity only, not Strength only or choice of Dex/Strength. And monks make unarmed strikes with Strength or Dexterity despite unarmed strikes not being finesse.
Honestly I think that an accurate flow chart would be much more complex then just doing a bullet list roundup of relevant rules.
A ranged weapon is a weapon that is in the 'ranged weapon' table. The fact that you are making a ranged attack with a weapon does not mean it's a ranged weapon.
The rule is quite simple:
For a weapon in a creature stat block, use whatever the stat block says.
If the weapon is classed as a ranged weapon, use Dex unless some effect specifies otherwise (e.g. magic stone). There are no rules for making a melee attack with a ranged weapon, most likely it's treated as an improvised weapon (while there are no ranged weapons available to PCs that use Strength, giant rocks use Strength).
If the weapon is classed as a melee weapon, even if used at range, use Str unless some effect (including the Finesse weapon property) specifies otherwise.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that no improvised weapon has the Thrown tag, it's arguable whether improvised weapons might be assigned properties by the DM that fit them (2-handed, for example, for a heavy tree branch?).
But that flow chart does over complicate some things, oversimplify others, and get others wrong. For example, it doesn't account for the fact that you might be using Charisma to attack as a Hexblade or Wisdom wielding Shillelagh. A ranged weapon with Finesse isn't something that actually exists, so while it's theoretically true that such a weapon would let you use Strength, that's not a useful branch. There's no rule that you can't throw something without the Thrown tag, that's inaccurate. Ranged weapons with the Thrown tag (darts, nets) use Dexterity only, not Strength only or choice of Dex/Strength. And monks make unarmed strikes with Strength or Dexterity despite unarmed strikes not being finesse.
Honestly I think that an accurate flow chart would be much more complex then just doing a bullet list roundup of relevant rules.
You can also use Intelligence for magic weapons as a Battle Smith, Constitution is the only ability score that you can't use instead of Strength or Dexterity for weapon attacks now.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Wasn't sure if this should go here.. or tips and tricks. Felt like here was closer.
I wanted to check if my understanding of Improvsed weapons, Thrown improvise weapons, Acid/Alch firre flasks is correct! So I hope ya’ll will help me out. Also maybe ball bearing
First properties
Thrown. If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon. or example, if you throw a handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the dagger has the finesse property.
From Improvised Weapons:
If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
Acid Flask
As an action, you can splash the contents of this vial onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw the vial up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage.
So. Improvised weapons. Unless your GM decices it is close to a weapon with finesse (say a kitchen knife and a dagger for instance), then it will use STR to hit in melee. AND if you chose to throw it, it becomes an improvised thrown weapon. So it would be Str to hit and damage still. Correct? Because it is now a Improvised weapon with the Throw property (because its being thrown) as per Improvised weapon section. (so d4+str)
Is that correct?
or would the inherent fact that improvised weapons are not a "weapon" until used, mean that any and all thrown improvised weapons--which use ranged attack rolls, be Dex based not str and never off the option (baring the strange fineese situation)?
(and there is no method to get dex to hit in melee, baring said fineese attachment via GM fiat yes?)
So, Acid Flask (alch fire-and anything like those (though I don’t think there are any?). When thrown it statesss its an ranged attack, as an Improvised Weapon. So per improvised weapon rules, it would be a thrown weapon. So STR to hit (or Dex if the GM would like as it is a Ranged attack. Seemingly it could be either due to the two rule sets). Then D4+STR on impact + whatever the flask itself does. The acid entry says 20ft. Is that a specific that overrides the general Improvised weapon 20/60 rules? I was assuming that is just stating the normal 20 without disadvantage. As its an improvised weapon. But I could see it being a specific that overrode the general.
As a bonus Question.
Sharpshooter feat, does that work with Improvised Thrown weapons? It states “ranged weapon attack rolls” when you use an improvised thrown weapon it is in that instance a thrown (ranged) weapon correct? So it should be able to get all 3 benefits of the feat. Resulting in -5 to hit, and a d4+str+10 bludgeon + 2d6 acid (or alch fire). Correct?
assuming acid flask/alch are 20/60, then I could throw up to 60ft with no disadvantage?
Last question.
Ball Bearings, is there any compelling in game reason you could not throw this as an improvised thrown weapon doing d4+str? It is light, but I think the standardized rule on improvised thrown is a d4. I could certainly see a GM making it a 0d4 due to light weight-which I wouldn’t’ have a problem with. But basic rules wise would it be a d4 conventially speaking? This would also apply to the previous question. Sharpshooter with ballbearings would be just wonderful
Would having Tavern Brawler feat change your mind as to thet damage die if you were the GM?
These are all questions for my Alchemist Artificer I’m building. She wants to rock some improvised weapons of various types, as well as Alchemical Weapons. She’s a mechanic engineering girl so she has some muscles on her. (Shooting for 14str, 12dx, 16 int but I haven’t played with stats yet. Probably variant human for the Tavern Brawler feat.)
I am fully aware the damage output isn’t going to be amazing, but it is immensely amusing character idea.
Yeah, improvised weapons don't have the finesse property, so throwing the flask is strength to hit.
A thrown acid flask does not deal 1d4+STR damage and does not have a range of 20/60 feet. It deals 2d6 acid damage and has a range of 20 feet. Both specific rules of the acid flask override the general rules of improvised thrown weapons.
Most of Sharpshooter works with any ranged weapon attack roll. Improvised thrown weapons require you to make a ranged attack, so they are included. The third part of Sharpshooter which allows you to take a to-hit penalty for more damage does not work with improvised thrown weapons, because it works not with ranged attack rolls but with attacks with a ranged weapon that you're proficient in. Improvised thrown weapons are not ranged weapons, so this part of Sharpshooter doesn't apply to them (additionally, it requires you to be proficient with the ranged weapon in question, and without Tavern Brawler, no one is ever proficient with improvised weapons). A note: thrown weapons are never ranged weapons. Even if you make a ranged attack roll with them, they are still melee weapons, so the third benefit of Sharpshooter doesn't apply to handaxes, daggers, javelins, etc.
Re: ball bearings, throwing a bag of ball bearings as an improvised weapon sounds fine. If you're asking about an individual ball bearing, that's up to the individual DM. The rules on improvised weapons say this: "An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands." Personally, I do not believe a normal sized character could ever be said to "wield" a single ball bearing, and would not allow it to be used as an improvised weapon.
Thanks for the input!
Huh. So throwing an empty vial would be d4+StR. while throwing an acid flask would be only 2d6? or is the 2d6 overriding the base D4, but you'd still add str? Max range 20 solid.
Reading as a whole specific overridding general, It would override the damage dice with the 2d6 but I don't think it would change the normal application for the rest of the ranged attack--Would it? Its just like any other damage die replacement effect? If it did overridie completely it has some odd interactions such as---
What about the Alchemist Fire then? If it the item's effect isn't a rider, then on hit Alchemist fire does nothing? ". On a hit, the target takes 1d4 fire damage at the start of each of its turns." This was part of the reason I believed these items followed normal improvised throwing weapons--because otherwise this does nothing on hit, which feels like it breaks normal impact of a weapon rules? IF the item only replaces the damage dice (as the above example 2d6+STR acid) would it just be a 0d0+str on impact, then 1d4fire per round as normal?
Or does it just do nothing until the fire?
hum. wonky and slightly complicated. Shame they aren't just extraneous rider effects. That would warrent their cost, and also cause less rule weirdness.
Good catch with the sharpshooter. I didn't notice the verbage change on the last portion.
Thanks again for the input.
The acid flask text tells you what happens when you hit with it. It's just 2d6 acid damage. Alchemist's fire also tells you what happens when it hits. The target takes 1d4 fire damage at the start of each of its turns, etc.
It's not at all wonky or complicated. The text says exactly what happens. You're making it more complicated than it is by trying to introduce other effects :p
Fair enough that makes sense.
Coming from a different system, it just feels very weird to reference Improvised Weapon rules---then ignore almsot all of them. Seems like it would've been easier to say "no profiency" since I think thats all those rules amount to with them? Though then I guess it would be harder to get profiency in them (As you can not train that via downtime. a nd I think Tavern Brawler is the only method?)
Thanks for your input!
EDIT PS: Then I guess Oil Flasks also won't do normal thrown flask damage? Only covering them with oil, not the d4+str?
" Make a ranged attack against a target creature or object, treating the oil as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target is covered in oil."
Shame, I loved the idea of hurling oil flasks at enemies for my attack, while comboing with a fire caster
Ranged weapon attacks use DEX. The only reason melee weapons with the Thrown property can use STR when thrown is because the Thrown property says so.
Strictly speaking it deals 2d6 + DEX acid damage since you always add your ability modifier to the damage roll of a weapon attack. The item makes an exception for the 1d4, not the whole damage roll.
Back up a little here, let's go one step at a time.
Ranged attacks don't automatically use Dexterity, ranged weapons do. See Basic Rules Chapter 9.
Thrown weapons are not automatically ranged weapons merely because they are thrown at a range. A Dart is a ranged weapon and can benefit from Sharpshooter. A Dagger is a melee weapon, even when thrown, and cannot.
Throwing a melee weapon with the property Thrown does not give the option to use your melee stat ("...you can use the same ability modifier..."), it requires you to use your melee stat ("you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon..."). The only ways to use Dexterity on a Thrown weapon are (1) if you use Dexterity to attack in melee with it (due to it being a Finesse weapon, or some other feature which allows you to use Dexterity for melee attacks), or (2) if the Thrown weapon is a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon (see Dart).
Not everything you throw instantly assumes the Thrown property. You can throw your longsword as an awkward improvised weapon, it doesn't mean that your DM will allow you to make that ranged attack using Strength. The DM is of course free to decide that the improvised sword has that property, but I wouldn't count on it.
Acid (Vial) does not specify whether it is an improvised melee weapon or an improvised ranged weapon. The item description describes attacking both in melee (5 feet) and at range, but even the melee attack is still described as "splashing" (e.g., throwing?), so....I think there's good reason for your DM to decide it's an improvised ranged weapon? If that's the case, then it uses Dexterity for attack rolls. Either way, it makes no mention of treating it as an improvised weapon with the Throw property.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Nah, InquisitiveCoder's correction was good. The very page you cite says "the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity." Ranged weapon attack != an attack with a ranged weapon.
The improvised weapon rules about throwing things without the thrown property don't say anything about overriding the above.
I have learned a lot just now.
Throwing a longsword uses DEX? Alchemist fire and acid vials add DEX to damage?
I would have said the same as Chicken if I had not double checked and read it myself. It is all here. Ranged attacks always default to DEX. Weapon attacks always add mod to damage.
Huh. Glad I decided I should ask. lots here~
So.. if alch fire adds dex... is that adding dex every round? Or just the first round?
(also does that mean Oil Flasks do some sort of damage on impact?)
Sorry, I was misreading Chapter 9. The division between "ranged weapon attack" and "attack with a ranged weapon" always kind of confuses me if I don't stop to compare it to Sharpshooter, and I think I got ahead of myself.
Sharpshooter uses both: it talks about "ranged weapons attacks" (no disadvantage on long distance; ignore up to 3/4 cover) and "attack[s] with a ranged weapon" (-5 to hit for +10 damage).
Chapter 9 - Combat - Making an Attack - Attack Rolls talks about "melee weapon attacks" and "ranged weapon attacks."
So... I guess by default, if an attack is being made at range (as opposed to being a melee attack with or without extra reach), it attacks with Dexterity. Improvised weapons like thrown swords or acid vials, ranged weapons like bows and darts, melee weapons designed to be thrown like daggers... all Dex.
Where I'm still scratching my head is for non-Finesse melee weapons with Thrown, like the Handaxe. It's a melee weapon without Finesse, so by default, you attack with it in melee using Strength. If you throw it as an improvised weapon, just like throwing a sword, that should be a ranged attack.... use Dex. But, unlike the sword, the handaxe has the Thrown property, which again, does not allow you to choose to use Dex. Right there in Thrown's description, it uses the handaxe as an example of "you use your Strength," not "you can choose to use your Strength."
I guess I just never noticed that Thrown is kind of if anything a negative weapon property, like Loading. Sure, on the one hand Thrown lets you throw a melee weapon without having to attack with it as an improvised weapon (probably dropping it to 1d4 damage). But on the other hand, it often entirely removes the ability to use Dexterity for a ranged attack, which is arguably a nerf? I dunno, just weird.
And yes I agree about acid doing 2d6+Dex. I wouldn't have thought so, since I thought Acid was an item and not a weapon... but it says right there in its description that you should treat it as an improvised weapon, so there it is!
And while we're talking about Thrown, I just want to use the opportunity to mention how weird it is that Nets and Darts have the Thrown property. Like, it literally has zero effect for them, since they're both already ranged weapons, and Thrown is a property which only has relevance to melee weapons. I think that whoever tacked that on in the editing process conflated weapons that are thrown with the Thrown property, but it certainly left a head scratcher!
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I don't see the Thrown property as being a nerf. Take our handaxe: its primary purpose is as a melee weapon, and it's not a Finesse weapon, so whoever is wielding it probably has a higher STR than they do DEX (or else they'd go with a Finesse weapon). It's a way to give the fighter in plate armor with 10 DEX some efficacy with all the javelins their background gives them.
But, I do not like this rule that every ranged weapon attack is DEX without some specific property saying otherwise. What makes more sense to me, and how I will certainly run things at my table if it ever comes up, is that anything thrown is STR without some specific property saying otherwise (e.g. Finesse). Or, to put it another way, if you're throwing it, it has the Thrown property, period.
I guess "nerf" is kind of a strong word for it... but I have found myself frustrated on several occasions that you can't throw Javelins with Dex, requiring you to wield a shortbow instead if that's what you're after. Say, a Dex-based Lizardfolk scout... they can make javelins out of beasts they kill, but not arrows, which may be completely useless for them since Javelins are always Strength based attacks.
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It does the same damage every turn, that damage is weapon attack damage, weapon attack damage adds modifier. If you have to justify it, consider your throw accuracy and what part is on fire.
Oil is a trickier question. It doesn't do damage on hit (alch fire does, it is just delayed), so I think the answer is no.
Every ranged weapon has either the Thrown or Ammunition property so that you know how the ranged attack is made. Melee attacks don't require that kind of elaboration because there's only one way of performing them.
As far as javelins go, DEX doesn't make much sense; you mainly want a strong arm, and the rest is practice. Quick reflexes and a great sense of balance won't help with that at all.
I can understand the frustration with how the game incentivizes going all in on only one of STR or DEX and the effects that has on weapon choices though. In reality improving one aspect of your physical abilities will improve the others to some degree as well, so the way the game forces you to prioritize them doesn't make much sense. I think it would've been better overall to only use proficiency bonus for attack rolls/damage rolls/AC and have strength requirements for equipment, but that probably would've been too much of a break from tradition to survive playtesting. Would've solved a lot of issues with MAD classes like Monk, prevented weird scenarios like 8 STR characters being able to use longbows effectively and generally given players more freedom over how to allocate their scores (or pick feats). Oh well.
I like flowcharts.
Have I got this right?
Mostly right. But throwing things without the thrown tag doesn’t mean you can’t do it, it just means it’s improvised and uses DEX for attack and damage (1d4 damage die). No improvised weapon actually has the thrown tag (or any tag).
I don’t think any ranged weapons have the finesse tag (though strength-based longbows could be interesting), so that part of the flowchart isn’t necessary.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that no improvised weapon has the Thrown tag, it's arguable whether improvised weapons might be assigned properties by the DM that fit them (2-handed, for example, for a heavy tree branch?).
But that flow chart does over complicate some things, oversimplify others, and get others wrong. For example, it doesn't account for the fact that you might be using Charisma to attack as a Hexblade or Wisdom wielding Shillelagh. A ranged weapon with Finesse isn't something that actually exists, so while it's theoretically true that such a weapon would let you use Strength, that's not a useful branch. There's no rule that you can't throw something without the Thrown tag, that's inaccurate. Ranged weapons with the Thrown tag (darts, nets) use Dexterity only, not Strength only or choice of Dex/Strength. And monks make unarmed strikes with Strength or Dexterity despite unarmed strikes not being finesse.
Honestly I think that an accurate flow chart would be much more complex then just doing a bullet list roundup of relevant rules.
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A ranged weapon is a weapon that is in the 'ranged weapon' table. The fact that you are making a ranged attack with a weapon does not mean it's a ranged weapon.
The rule is quite simple:
You can also use Intelligence for magic weapons as a Battle Smith, Constitution is the only ability score that you can't use instead of Strength or Dexterity for weapon attacks now.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms