It's supposed to be easy to get that's the point. Most games don't have 2 months worth of downtime unless you give them that. I'm personally a big fan of the rest variant rule it would also make this not a big deal. I just had a player spend a week making potions. I give them time constraints to get things done once they are on an adventure so when they do have down time it's only restricted to how much money they can dump. I also use wieght limits not super realistic variant just Normal and Coin. So sure make 60 potions that's 30lbs you got room? Where are you storing them? Don't get knocked prone (if I really wanna be a dick but would probably save for 10ft+ falls)
The person crafting the potions should have an herbalism kit and would be the one searching for ingredients (and getting their ranger pal or nature cleric to help, and other classes can only help forage if the *druid* or other crafter has taken the time to teach them about every single ingredient they're looking for). If you're trying to get them to craft potions, but not too regularly, then make it a 3-ingredient potion with two common ingredients available to buy, and one ingredient that the character has to forage for. You can make it anything you want, but I don't like the idea of my characters drinking literal gem-dust, so mine is usually a red sort of herb/weed/root (crimson is a good word as a descriptor, or blood - bloodleaf, crimsonweed), that they can find on an adventure. If you only want them to craft 2 in downtime, you give them two.
I personally like 5 days of downtime and only do long periods of downtime between huge adventures. Huge changes to their characters shouldn't be being made in a week of irl time, so i don't do long periods of downtime. That being said, at higher levels, I scale healing factors with the spells associated with their level. They have to use more buyable/foragable ingredients, use ingredients of a higher rarity, or have to distill base tinctures to pull out more potency from the already gathered items (1 day for the tincture, 1 day for the potion).
Start with these ideas at level 1-3. Improvise if they find a loophole, but they usually get the memo and are happy with two per week as long as the encounters are balanced with it. If they don't have any healing party members, that's when you modify the stock of the town shops and give them hints about short rests, or allow them a respite for long rests on long adventures.
If they just want to make them to sell, then they need to understand the reality of the situation that healing potions are not their only method of making money, and that if they want to make money at it then it needs to be their full-time job in-game.
Chapter 1: Dragon's Rest >> Welcome To Dragon's Rest >> Meeting the Inhabitants >> Tarak
Tarak frequently visits the sea caves on the south side of the island to acquire heart cap mushrooms from the myconids that live there. He uses the mushrooms to makepotions of healing. But the myconids have installed a fearsome guardian at their caves—a fungus-covered octopus monster—that has turned him away on his latest visits, and he is worried (see “Cloister Quests”).
Bump I homebrewed foraging etc. for healing potions ingredients and tweak the brewing/creation process. This method takes into account prof. bonus and expertise in the foraging portion but not the brewing (because you should be able to pull it off unless somethings contaminates the while in the brewing process).
Foraging for Ingredients: Requirements: Must be in a forest/jungle/woods or otherwise an area with abundant resource. DM determines whether the area is suitable to forage example mines for minerals etc.. Player must be proficient with herbalist kit or nature skill. Allies can assist if they have proficiency with herbalist kit, nature or survival skills
Player that heads the search makes the roll: 1-10 finds nothing 11-19 finds half a potion worth of ingredients (12G 5S equivalent) 20--29 Finds 1 potion worth (25GP equivalent) 30+ finds 2 healing potions worth of ingredients (50GP equivalent)
Creating Healing Potions: Standard amount of time outlined in XGtE however there's a prep time and brew time. This way players are not forced to do the full minimum of 8 hours a day.
Preparation time - chopping, grinding ingredients, sanitizing equipment. Up to the DM to tweak but I recommend 1/2 time to prep the other 1/2 to brew Example: Of the 8 hours for basics healing potion 4 hours for preparation which can be portioned by 1 hour so at least the player can prep during a short rest if one isn't needed 4 hours for brewing: - 1st hour undivided attention is needed to sanitize the equipment and combine the ingredients - next 2 hours can be left to it's own device while the concoction simmers (this time can be used to prep the next potion) - last hour to come back and turn off the fire at the right time and roughly clean the equipment
Benefits: Players can prep during a road trip if travelling by wagon etc. Can brew 2 potions a day if the materials were pre-prepped Encourages people to do the full scavenging / manufacturing to give life to the game or quickly resolved dice rolls for those short on time.
I've not looked into high level healing potions and whether this process works with them but I imagine most of what's written should work
I don’t worry about the formula - if you have the herbalism/alchemist kit then you also should have the knowledges that go along with the equipment so you know the formulas for at least one or two things as well as what the ingredients look like. Generally I use the nature skill, the herbalist tools and the foraging checks to determine how much of the ingredients the ranger/Druid/PC gathers during the adventures then in their down time they can take the gathered ingredients and brew the potions that they have ingredients for. Much simpler and easier.
I think you only need to use the item rarity to determine the materials. Then if proficient with herbalism tools you can craft the corresponding potion. The materials required by item rarity can be found on Xanathar manual at the section for crafting items. The potions of healing should be the most “common” item to use the materials, and having proficiency with the tools should be enough to have the knowledge to make those potions, maybe but for the 2 greater ones that in some tables getting the formula could be required, but not being so hard to find like other magical items.
For the most basic one, could even standard foraging (Wis Survival) be used with some DC check, maybe 15 or 20 for getting the materials to craft 1 potion, increasing the DC if wanting to get materials for 2? Or make a Wis Survival check an materials for 1 dose are found for each 10 points on the check result. You know, the base potion of healing should be something basic to have to avoid get stuck and is nothing game breaking, it cost 25gp to craft one even with materials, is not free, and rarely worth to use in combat with your action.
Aside, we have in Xanathar the prices for crafting: 25, 100, 1000 and 10000. But at the same time at the end we have that in Adventure League they are priced for purchase: 50, 100, 500 and 5000. That is inconsistent, according to the latest, the prices for crafting should be: 25, 50, 250 and 2500. What prices would we use then?
Yes 5e is designed to be anti crafting in that sense - whether potions or magic items in most cases the cost to create is greater than the selling cost of the item - just to limit crafting. Times may have much the same problem as it may take less time to clean out a “dungeon” getting everything in it than it takes to craft just one of the items you found in the adventure. So it’s a game mechanic to keep you adventuring rather than retiring to craft as a way of making a living.
Well but that is not possible. You need materials for crafting, so you have to go out to find them. And those materials have associated a CR depending the item rarity you want to craft. I think is not good discouraging players for collecting materials from their encounters and exploration and use them to save some bucks.
It should be that way yes, sadly it generally isn’t. Part of the problem is that if it were quick, easy and economic everyone would be doing it and things like potions of healing would cost 5 GP not 50. Technically you need the ingredients + 25 GP for other required equipment and materials and at least 8 hours of down time to make 1 potion of healing. Getting the ingredients should call for some minor adventuring - at least leaving town for the wilds and risking adventure and death -. To my mind the herbalist kit like the alchemist kit and the poisoner’s kit really should be that 25 GP of equipment and be reusable (make an herbalism roll - on a 1 you break enough equipment that you need to purchase a new kit, subtract 1 from the roll for each potion you create) now you either need to hire some adventurers or go out yourself and find them then use the time etc to make the potion and a decent profit.
Notice that the 25 gp cost would be for the components used from the toolkit itself. So if you want to craft a potion purchasing the materials, it should cost the full 50 gp, then if you provide the materials, 25 gp (notice that could be out of stock and then you could want to craft them). When shopping the 50 gp cost is due to all the stuff about organized market, "mass" (within the set possibilities) production and etc. from where the profits come selling it for 50 gp reducing the crafting cost.
The same could be for scroll crafting, the cost in Xanathar seems more if you purchase the materials (this is, the scroll paper already made), but it you provide them and have "paper work" tools proficiency (have to check the artisan's tools) you could halve it.
The crafting items section at Xanathar suggesting materials based on CR and rarity is a good starting point for a good and required crafting rules rework. The interesting is that they put the idea on the table themselves, but later don't use it and the crafting rules seems to be that automatic without justified cost thing.
The materials for a potion of healing should be hard to obtain and not just hand-waved. As with any materials for magic item crafting. Make it an adventure to obtain.
If obtaining the components for a healing potion was an adventure, there would be no potions of healing - because, the first team of adventurers who set out to obtain said components wouldn't have had any potions of healing, and thus not made it.
;-)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Notice that the 25 gp cost would be for the components used from the toolkit itself. So if you want to craft a potion purchasing the materials, it should cost the full 50 gp, then if you provide the materials, 25 gp (notice that could be out of stock and then you could want to craft them). When shopping the 50 gp cost is due to all the stuff about organized market, "mass" (within the set possibilities) production and etc. from where the profits come selling it for 50 gp reducing the crafting cost.
The same could be for scroll crafting, the cost in Xanathar seems more if you purchase the materials (this is, the scroll paper already made), but it you provide them and have "paper work" tools proficiency (have to check the artisan's tools) you could halve it.
The crafting items section at Xanathar suggesting materials based on CR and rarity is a good starting point for a good and required crafting rules rework. The interesting is that they put the idea on the table themselves, but later don't use it and the crafting rules seems to be that automatic without justified cost thing.
The 25 gp is the entire cost of crafting a basic potion of healing, per XGtE. It’s very clear that the table is providing the total cost and time required. It’s the same deal as crafting basic items with alchemist tools, as outlined earlier in the book. Take one day and essentially pay half the value of the item.
It’s about the same for scribing a scroll; the only difference is that you also need to pay any material gp cost associated with the spell, simply to avoid using scrolls to end run that limitation.
Notice that the 25 gp cost would be for the components used from the toolkit itself. So if you want to craft a potion purchasing the materials, it should cost the full 50 gp, then if you provide the materials, 25 gp (notice that could be out of stock and then you could want to craft them). When shopping the 50 gp cost is due to all the stuff about organized market, "mass" (within the set possibilities) production and etc. from where the profits come selling it for 50 gp reducing the crafting cost.
The same could be for scroll crafting, the cost in Xanathar seems more if you purchase the materials (this is, the scroll paper already made), but it you provide them and have "paper work" tools proficiency (have to check the artisan's tools) you could halve it.
The crafting items section at Xanathar suggesting materials based on CR and rarity is a good starting point for a good and required crafting rules rework. The interesting is that they put the idea on the table themselves, but later don't use it and the crafting rules seems to be that automatic without justified cost thing.
The 25 gp is the entire cost of crafting a basic potion of healing, per XGtE. It’s very clear that the table is providing the total cost and time required. It’s the same deal as crafting basic items with alchemist tools, as outlined earlier in the book. Take one day and essentially pay half the value of the item.
It’s about the same for scribing a scroll; the only difference is that you also need to pay any material gp cost associated with the spell, simply to avoid using scrolls to end run that limitation.
Yes but a few pages from there we have the materials requirements for crafting. I know it says potions and scrolls are exceptions, but then we have the Adventure League bypassing all of this and using its own potion selling prices, lower than even creating them, which is a non-sense. So if the own AL uses this indicates not very good rules in the set. Allowing to use what the players find and collect would be a way to improve that, as the materials are not unlimited in any case.
Adventurer’s league has a Byzantine approach to what things should cost, so I’m not sure that’s a good example. I don’t object to the idea of gathering materials for the potions in principle; I’m just pointing out that the pricing scale is not some complicated multi-step calculation.
A while back I took a look at the listed costs to create items and the prices you could buy/sell them for in almost all cases the cost to create turned out to be greater than the average price to buy/sell an item. I, personally, also have some significant problems with how they go about deciding what is uncommon, rare, etc. so I took the time a while back to go thru organizing a spreadsheet of how WOtC had things listed the creation costs and the average buy price. Then I went thru and listed how rare I thought the items should be ( why is a +1 sword uncommon but a +1 armor is rare? Any freaking warrior is going to want both and there should be a bunch of both floating around in the world’s dungeons, so if one is uncommon both should be, etc. (if anyone wants the excel files please let me know privately). After that I assigned selling prices based on the cost to create plus a decent profit for the creator based on the new rarities. The economics of magic works a lot better now in my world.
Regarding the prices, I think they felt the original table was a bit low and so soft released some changes in XGtE. If you look under the "Buying Magic Item" section in that book, you'll find prices more in line with the crafting costs. Also, regarding why basic magic armor is rarer than weapons, the Watsonian explanation could be that since a suit of armor is incorporating a lot more material, it takes more time and material to enchant it. The Doylist one is probably just that AC is weighted more heavily than to hit/damage in terms of value; a PC's to hit modifier scales much faster than their AC, and the damage itself is less impacted by single digit increments.
What I think I'll do is to use the RAI for common items, like the base potion of healing and others alchemy base items, showing that uses common materials and easier to purchase. But for greater versions the costs for auto-craft use the ones in table too, showing that are rare materials with risk for collecting, so are overpriced, then you can collect them by your own and halve the table crafting cost. This is using the material VD-item rarity table even if it says to exclude.
For scrolls is more complicated, probably apply the same at least for cantrip ones, and maybe for 1th level as they are shown as common in DMG.
As note, the potion of invisibility is overrated IMO. The example is that you can get it soon in many pre-made adventures at low level, it should not be so usual to get a very rare item at that tier. It is a useful tool used at the proper time, but 20.000 gp? For 1 hour of normal invisibility.
It's supposed to be easy to get that's the point. Most games don't have 2 months worth of downtime unless you give them that. I'm personally a big fan of the rest variant rule it would also make this not a big deal. I just had a player spend a week making potions. I give them time constraints to get things done once they are on an adventure so when they do have down time it's only restricted to how much money they can dump. I also use wieght limits not super realistic variant just Normal and Coin. So sure make 60 potions that's 30lbs you got room? Where are you storing them? Don't get knocked prone (if I really wanna be a dick but would probably save for 10ft+ falls)
Bumping this old thread to put in my two cents.
The person crafting the potions should have an herbalism kit and would be the one searching for ingredients (and getting their ranger pal or nature cleric to help, and other classes can only help forage if the *druid* or other crafter has taken the time to teach them about every single ingredient they're looking for). If you're trying to get them to craft potions, but not too regularly, then make it a 3-ingredient potion with two common ingredients available to buy, and one ingredient that the character has to forage for. You can make it anything you want, but I don't like the idea of my characters drinking literal gem-dust, so mine is usually a red sort of herb/weed/root (crimson is a good word as a descriptor, or blood - bloodleaf, crimsonweed), that they can find on an adventure. If you only want them to craft 2 in downtime, you give them two.
I personally like 5 days of downtime and only do long periods of downtime between huge adventures. Huge changes to their characters shouldn't be being made in a week of irl time, so i don't do long periods of downtime. That being said, at higher levels, I scale healing factors with the spells associated with their level. They have to use more buyable/foragable ingredients, use ingredients of a higher rarity, or have to distill base tinctures to pull out more potency from the already gathered items (1 day for the tincture, 1 day for the potion).
Start with these ideas at level 1-3. Improvise if they find a loophole, but they usually get the memo and are happy with two per week as long as the encounters are balanced with it. If they don't have any healing party members, that's when you modify the stock of the town shops and give them hints about short rests, or allow them a respite for long rests on long adventures.
If they just want to make them to sell, then they need to understand the reality of the situation that healing potions are not their only method of making money, and that if they want to make money at it then it needs to be their full-time job in-game.
The new campaign, Dragons of the Shipwreck Isles, has a recipe for making healing potions with a special red mushroom.
Where? I mean what section of the book?
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I homebrewed foraging etc. for healing potions ingredients and tweak the brewing/creation process.
This method takes into account prof. bonus and expertise in the foraging portion but not the brewing (because you should be able to pull it off unless somethings contaminates the while in the brewing process).
Foraging for Ingredients:
Requirements:
Must be in a forest/jungle/woods or otherwise an area with abundant resource. DM determines whether the area is suitable to forage example mines for minerals etc..
Player must be proficient with herbalist kit or nature skill.
Allies can assist if they have proficiency with herbalist kit, nature or survival skills
Player that heads the search makes the roll:
1-10 finds nothing
11-19 finds half a potion worth of ingredients (12G 5S equivalent)
20--29 Finds 1 potion worth (25GP equivalent)
30+ finds 2 healing potions worth of ingredients (50GP equivalent)
Creating Healing Potions:
Standard amount of time outlined in XGtE however there's a prep time and brew time. This way players are not forced to do the full minimum of 8 hours a day.
Preparation time - chopping, grinding ingredients, sanitizing equipment. Up to the DM to tweak but I recommend 1/2 time to prep the other 1/2 to brew
Example:
Of the 8 hours for basics healing potion
4 hours for preparation which can be portioned by 1 hour so at least the player can prep during a short rest if one isn't needed
4 hours for brewing:
- 1st hour undivided attention is needed to sanitize the equipment and combine the ingredients
- next 2 hours can be left to it's own device while the concoction simmers (this time can be used to prep the next potion)
- last hour to come back and turn off the fire at the right time and roughly clean the equipment
Benefits:
Players can prep during a road trip if travelling by wagon etc.
Can brew 2 potions a day if the materials were pre-prepped
Encourages people to do the full scavenging / manufacturing to give life to the game or quickly resolved dice rolls for those short on time.
I've not looked into high level healing potions and whether this process works with them but I imagine most of what's written should work
I don’t worry about the formula - if you have the herbalism/alchemist kit then you also should have the knowledges that go along with the equipment so you know the formulas for at least one or two things as well as what the ingredients look like. Generally I use the nature skill, the herbalist tools and the foraging checks to determine how much of the ingredients the ranger/Druid/PC gathers during the adventures then in their down time they can take the gathered ingredients and brew the potions that they have ingredients for. Much simpler and easier.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think you only need to use the item rarity to determine the materials. Then if proficient with herbalism tools you can craft the corresponding potion. The materials required by item rarity can be found on Xanathar manual at the section for crafting items. The potions of healing should be the most “common” item to use the materials, and having proficiency with the tools should be enough to have the knowledge to make those potions, maybe but for the 2 greater ones that in some tables getting the formula could be required, but not being so hard to find like other magical items.
For the most basic one, could even standard foraging (Wis Survival) be used with some DC check, maybe 15 or 20 for getting the materials to craft 1 potion, increasing the DC if wanting to get materials for 2? Or make a Wis Survival check an materials for 1 dose are found for each 10 points on the check result. You know, the base potion of healing should be something basic to have to avoid get stuck and is nothing game breaking, it cost 25gp to craft one even with materials, is not free, and rarely worth to use in combat with your action.
Aside, we have in Xanathar the prices for crafting: 25, 100, 1000 and 10000. But at the same time at the end we have that in Adventure League they are priced for purchase: 50, 100, 500 and 5000. That is inconsistent, according to the latest, the prices for crafting should be: 25, 50, 250 and 2500. What prices would we use then?
Yes 5e is designed to be anti crafting in that sense - whether potions or magic items in most cases the cost to create is greater than the selling cost of the item - just to limit crafting. Times may have much the same problem as it may take less time to clean out a “dungeon” getting everything in it than it takes to craft just one of the items you found in the adventure. So it’s a game mechanic to keep you adventuring rather than retiring to craft as a way of making a living.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Well but that is not possible. You need materials for crafting, so you have to go out to find them. And those materials have associated a CR depending the item rarity you want to craft. I think is not good discouraging players for collecting materials from their encounters and exploration and use them to save some bucks.
It should be that way yes, sadly it generally isn’t. Part of the problem is that if it were quick, easy and economic everyone would be doing it and things like potions of healing would cost 5 GP not 50. Technically you need the ingredients + 25 GP for other required equipment and materials and at least 8 hours of down time to make 1 potion of healing. Getting the ingredients should call for some minor adventuring - at least leaving town for the wilds and risking adventure and death -. To my mind the herbalist kit like the alchemist kit and the poisoner’s kit really should be that 25 GP of equipment and be reusable (make an herbalism roll - on a 1 you break enough equipment that you need to purchase a new kit, subtract 1 from the roll for each potion you create) now you either need to hire some adventurers or go out yourself and find them then use the time etc to make the potion and a decent profit.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Notice that the 25 gp cost would be for the components used from the toolkit itself. So if you want to craft a potion purchasing the materials, it should cost the full 50 gp, then if you provide the materials, 25 gp (notice that could be out of stock and then you could want to craft them). When shopping the 50 gp cost is due to all the stuff about organized market, "mass" (within the set possibilities) production and etc. from where the profits come selling it for 50 gp reducing the crafting cost.
The same could be for scroll crafting, the cost in Xanathar seems more if you purchase the materials (this is, the scroll paper already made), but it you provide them and have "paper work" tools proficiency (have to check the artisan's tools) you could halve it.
The crafting items section at Xanathar suggesting materials based on CR and rarity is a good starting point for a good and required crafting rules rework. The interesting is that they put the idea on the table themselves, but later don't use it and the crafting rules seems to be that automatic without justified cost thing.
If obtaining the components for a healing potion was an adventure, there would be no potions of healing - because, the first team of adventurers who set out to obtain said components wouldn't have had any potions of healing, and thus not made it.
;-)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The 25 gp is the entire cost of crafting a basic potion of healing, per XGtE. It’s very clear that the table is providing the total cost and time required. It’s the same deal as crafting basic items with alchemist tools, as outlined earlier in the book. Take one day and essentially pay half the value of the item.
It’s about the same for scribing a scroll; the only difference is that you also need to pay any material gp cost associated with the spell, simply to avoid using scrolls to end run that limitation.
Yes but a few pages from there we have the materials requirements for crafting. I know it says potions and scrolls are exceptions, but then we have the Adventure League bypassing all of this and using its own potion selling prices, lower than even creating them, which is a non-sense. So if the own AL uses this indicates not very good rules in the set. Allowing to use what the players find and collect would be a way to improve that, as the materials are not unlimited in any case.
Adventurer’s league has a Byzantine approach to what things should cost, so I’m not sure that’s a good example. I don’t object to the idea of gathering materials for the potions in principle; I’m just pointing out that the pricing scale is not some complicated multi-step calculation.
A while back I took a look at the listed costs to create items and the prices you could buy/sell them for in almost all cases the cost to create turned out to be greater than the average price to buy/sell an item. I, personally, also have some significant problems with how they go about deciding what is uncommon, rare, etc. so I took the time a while back to go thru organizing a spreadsheet of how WOtC had things listed the creation costs and the average buy price. Then I went thru and listed how rare I thought the items should be ( why is a +1 sword uncommon but a +1 armor is rare? Any freaking warrior is going to want both and there should be a bunch of both floating around in the world’s dungeons, so if one is uncommon both should be, etc. (if anyone wants the excel files please let me know privately). After that I assigned selling prices based on the cost to create plus a decent profit for the creator based on the new rarities. The economics of magic works a lot better now in my world.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I always assumed that dealers in simple potions just mas produced them in large batches to keep costs down.
Players are making one or two at a time and not gathering ingredients by the pound or even tens of pounds.
Regarding the prices, I think they felt the original table was a bit low and so soft released some changes in XGtE. If you look under the "Buying Magic Item" section in that book, you'll find prices more in line with the crafting costs. Also, regarding why basic magic armor is rarer than weapons, the Watsonian explanation could be that since a suit of armor is incorporating a lot more material, it takes more time and material to enchant it. The Doylist one is probably just that AC is weighted more heavily than to hit/damage in terms of value; a PC's to hit modifier scales much faster than their AC, and the damage itself is less impacted by single digit increments.
What I think I'll do is to use the RAI for common items, like the base potion of healing and others alchemy base items, showing that uses common materials and easier to purchase. But for greater versions the costs for auto-craft use the ones in table too, showing that are rare materials with risk for collecting, so are overpriced, then you can collect them by your own and halve the table crafting cost. This is using the material VD-item rarity table even if it says to exclude.
For scrolls is more complicated, probably apply the same at least for cantrip ones, and maybe for 1th level as they are shown as common in DMG.
As note, the potion of invisibility is overrated IMO. The example is that you can get it soon in many pre-made adventures at low level, it should not be so usual to get a very rare item at that tier. It is a useful tool used at the proper time, but 20.000 gp? For 1 hour of normal invisibility.