They lack anything like a normal creature writeup, and are thus missing a lot of things you would expect them to have, such as immunity to poison and charm.
Different sizes are grossly different in value
8x Tiny: Total Attack +8/52points, AC 18, Total HP 160. Up to 12 can attack a Medium target.
8x Small: Attack +6/52 points, AC 16, Total HP 200. Up to 8 can attack a Medium target.
4x Medium: Attack +5/32 points, AC 13, Total HP 160. Up to 8 can attack a Medium target.
2x Large: Attack +6/26 points, AC 10, Total HP 100. Up to 4 can attack a Medium target.
1x Huge. Attack +8/17 points, AC 10, Total HP 80. Up to 2 can attack a Medium target.
Now, against things with strong area damage, you probably don't want to use this spell at all (an Elemental is way better than a Huge construct), but against stuff that doesn't, Tiny constructs are just way superior. Are there any common house rules on this spell?
Based on similar spells such as Giant Insect, you'd expect Tiny or Small constructs to be CR 1/4, Medium to be CR 1/2, Large to be CR 1, Huge to be CR 2; maybe slightly better due to inconvenience (anything other than Tiny is hard to make sure you have on hand) and most competing spells being lower level, I might double the expected CR of anything but Tiny.
Yes, it technically turns them into creatures, but they are treated very much the same way that the hand generated by Arcane Hand. These “creatures” have all the exact same stats as the hand (Size, HP, AC, Str, Dex, and Damage) the only difference is they have their own Attack modifiers instead of using the caster’s. In fact, I think the only reason these objects get turned into “creatures” at all is because it was probably the easiest way to account for the various sized objects.
You wouldn’t apply a CR to the Arcane Hand, so there is no need to apply any to the “creatures” created by this spell. Normal creatures with CR have their own turns, their own Action, Bonus Action, Move, and Reaction. These “creatures” have none of those options. They don’t even have an Int of 0. They are not intended to give any additional XP other than the XP earned by defeating the caster.
Have you ever seen one of those movies where people are trying to console a psychic child, and the kid gets stressed and books and things start flying all over the room? This spell is that.
In any case, the other issue is the balance problem. Most summon effects are better if you spam small stuff, 8x wolf (+4/56 damage, advantage) generally beats 4x Black Bear (+4/50 damage) or 2x Brown Bear (+6/38 damage) or 1x Polar Bear (+7/21 damage), but it's not as severe.
That has less to do with this spell and more to do with the issue of action economy in 5e. Go to the encounter builder, make two encounters, 1 with 8 goblins, and the other with 1 ogre, put them against each other and those gobbos will eviscerate that oggie, probably before it even gets to attack. While you can use this spell to have a bookcase try to flatten someone for a number of rounds (as long as there is one in the room of course) but the main point of this spell is to throw out a fistful of coppers (😏) and just ping ‘em to death like temporarily summoning a bunch of Prodigal Sorcerers. A roll of silver pieces zipping around like bullets will turn a werewolf into pink mist.
If I remember the story correctly, that was how this spell got invented when Garry & co. we’re inventing this game back in the ‘70s (this was how they invented spells back then), one of his players pulled out a handful of coins and asked “Can my character do this?” Garry agreed and now we have a spell. Most of the names you see in spells: Bigby, Melf, etc. were Garry Gygax’s original players’ PCs. You can throw stuff around like Yoda with it if you want to, but pocket change is what it’s meant for. The bigger stuff came later when the player said “Well, if I can move a bunch of tiny stiff, could I do one huge thing?” Mr. Gygax probably DMed it that the amount of total magic required to animate the huge thing could do it, but it would be very weak, more flopping around instead of zipping. Animating a bed to block a door so you can escape is fun.
8xCR 1/4: base xp value 400, adjusted xp value 1000
4xCR 1/2: base xp value 400, adjusted xp value 800
2xCR 1: base xp value 400, adjusted xp value 600
1xCR 2: base xp value 450, adjusted xp value 450.
It's somewhat unfortunate design, the only spell where spamming smalls isn't obviously the way to go is Giant Insect, because the small stuff is so very flimsy, any area damage wipes them instantly, and the ratio of numbers isn't quite as favorable.
You’re missing my point, CR, and therefore everything else on your list is completely and utter 🐂💩. The only calculation that really matters in 5e is # of Attacks/HP. That’s it. You can take CR, roll it up in a wad of paper, set it on fire, and throw it out the window. A level 1 character is calculated somewhere around CR 1/4. So is a goblin. Is that balanced? Heck no. A party of 4 1st-level characters should be CR 1, so is a Goblin Boss. Is that balanced? Heck no. A 5th level PC is supposedly a CR 2, just like that ogre. 🤔🤣
The issue it seems you are having is trying to make sense of why things don’t actually compare properly to the CR ratings. The answer is, because the CR ratings are wrong. A Goblin Boss should be CR 1/2 tops, if it had Nimble Escape too. That ogre should be CR 1 if it had a +2 AC, or maybe Action Surge. You can throw 4 “deadly” encounters per day at a party if they take 2 short rests and nobody will die. Ignore CR.
A level 1 character is calculated somewhere around CR 1/4.
No it isn't. A level 1 character is expected to consider a CR 1/4 encounter 'deadly', which means burning about 1/3 of daily resources overcoming it. Actual CR is about 1/2, which means a part of 4 level 1s is 800 xp (about CR 3). Plenty of critters have dubious CR, but summon effects would be off even if all CRs were perfect. If you changed summons to be your choice of:
2 x CR 2 (xp value 1350) (weak version: 1x, 450 xp)
3 x CR 1 (xp value 1200) (weak version: 2x, 600 xp)
5 x CR 1/2 (xp value 1000) (weak version: 3x, 600 xp)
8 x CR 1/4 (xp value 1000) (weak version: 5x, 500 xp)
all your choices would be competitive. The 'weak' version is probably better balanced for the normal level of these spells.
It doesn’t create “Monsters” anymore than Arcane Hand does. Making them individual “creatures” just streamlined the rules to account for varying sized objects and the fact that they can autopilot.
It creates monsters. The fact that they're animated objects rather than conjurations doesn't really matter in terms of game play.
No, you are "creating" attacks. No more, no less.
That’s not true either. Think of it as turning random stuff into temporarily “awakened” stuff, with no more intelligence than an Invisible servant. They’re like the brooms in Fantasia. Or the pots and pans in Disney’s animated The sword in the Stone.
I can't find anything about the possibility of communication from an animated object. Be it telepathic or voice. I have decided that at higher levels of the spell, it can communicate with the caster via voice or telepathy depending on what makes the most sense at the time.
If there are RAW somewhere to counter this, can someone let me know.
I can't find anything about the possibility of communication from an animated object. Be it telepathic or voice. I have decided that at higher levels of the spell, it can communicate with the caster via voice or telepathy depending on what makes the most sense at the time.
If there are RAW somewhere to counter this, can someone let me know.
The spell doesn't say that the objects can communicate and thus they can't, that's how the rules for these things usually works. If you want to change that then that's fine, just consider what the player might want to communicate about and if that will cause any issues in the game. Also remember that the object has an Int of 3.
The potential is definitely there as presented in the Monster Manual: Animated Objects: "...Some animated objects (including many of those created in the Feywild) might converse fluently or adopt a persona, but most are simple automatons."
How you go about it looks like a GM call, as I can't find anything in the spell rule.
The Animate Objects spell bothers me, for two reasons
Now, against things with strong area damage, you probably don't want to use this spell at all (an Elemental is way better than a Huge construct), but against stuff that doesn't, Tiny constructs are just way superior. Are there any common house rules on this spell?
Based on similar spells such as Giant Insect, you'd expect Tiny or Small constructs to be CR 1/4, Medium to be CR 1/2, Large to be CR 1, Huge to be CR 2; maybe slightly better due to inconvenience (anything other than Tiny is hard to make sure you have on hand) and most competing spells being lower level, I might double the expected CR of anything but Tiny.
Objects are already immune to psychic and poison damage. This section of the DMG also happens to give the best rule I've seen in print:
I would be tempted to apply this philosophy when deciding whether to apply a particular condition to an object.
Yes, but animate objects turns them into creatures.
Yes but what about that or any other text of the spell suggests that their damage vulnerabilities and resistances would change?
Yes, it technically turns them into creatures, but they are treated very much the same way that the hand generated by Arcane Hand. These “creatures” have all the exact same stats as the hand (Size, HP, AC, Str, Dex, and Damage) the only difference is they have their own Attack modifiers instead of using the caster’s. In fact, I think the only reason these objects get turned into “creatures” at all is because it was probably the easiest way to account for the various sized objects.
You wouldn’t apply a CR to the Arcane Hand, so there is no need to apply any to the “creatures” created by this spell. Normal creatures with CR have their own turns, their own Action, Bonus Action, Move, and Reaction. These “creatures” have none of those options. They don’t even have an Int of 0. They are not intended to give any additional XP other than the XP earned by defeating the caster.
Have you ever seen one of those movies where people are trying to console a psychic child, and the kid gets stressed and books and things start flying all over the room? This spell is that.
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In any case, the other issue is the balance problem. Most summon effects are better if you spam small stuff, 8x wolf (+4/56 damage, advantage) generally beats 4x Black Bear (+4/50 damage) or 2x Brown Bear (+6/38 damage) or 1x Polar Bear (+7/21 damage), but it's not as severe.
That has less to do with this spell and more to do with the issue of action economy in 5e. Go to the encounter builder, make two encounters, 1 with 8 goblins, and the other with 1 ogre, put them against each other and those gobbos will eviscerate that oggie, probably before it even gets to attack. While you can use this spell to have a bookcase try to flatten someone for a number of rounds (as long as there is one in the room of course) but the main point of this spell is to throw out a fistful of coppers (😏) and just ping ‘em to death like temporarily summoning a bunch of Prodigal Sorcerers. A roll of silver pieces zipping around like bullets will turn a werewolf into pink mist.
If I remember the story correctly, that was how this spell got invented when Garry & co. we’re inventing this game back in the ‘70s (this was how they invented spells back then), one of his players pulled out a handful of coins and asked “Can my character do this?” Garry agreed and now we have a spell. Most of the names you see in spells: Bigby, Melf, etc. were Garry Gygax’s original players’ PCs. You can throw stuff around like Yoda with it if you want to, but pocket change is what it’s meant for. The bigger stuff came later when the player said “Well, if I can move a bunch of tiny stiff, could I do one huge thing?” Mr. Gygax probably DMed it that the amount of total magic required to animate the huge thing could do it, but it would be very weak, more flopping around instead of zipping. Animating a bed to block a door so you can escape is fun.
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Well, the obvious reason for that is
It's somewhat unfortunate design, the only spell where spamming smalls isn't obviously the way to go is Giant Insect, because the small stuff is so very flimsy, any area damage wipes them instantly, and the ratio of numbers isn't quite as favorable.
You’re missing my point, CR, and therefore everything else on your list is completely and utter 🐂💩. The only calculation that really matters in 5e is # of Attacks/HP. That’s it. You can take CR, roll it up in a wad of paper, set it on fire, and throw it out the window. A level 1 character is calculated somewhere around CR 1/4. So is a goblin. Is that balanced? Heck no. A party of 4 1st-level characters should be CR 1, so is a Goblin Boss. Is that balanced? Heck no. A 5th level PC is supposedly a CR 2, just like that ogre. 🤔🤣
The issue it seems you are having is trying to make sense of why things don’t actually compare properly to the CR ratings. The answer is, because the CR ratings are wrong. A Goblin Boss should be CR 1/2 tops, if it had Nimble Escape too. That ogre should be CR 1 if it had a +2 AC, or maybe Action Surge. You can throw 4 “deadly” encounters per day at a party if they take 2 short rests and nobody will die. Ignore CR.
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No it isn't. A level 1 character is expected to consider a CR 1/4 encounter 'deadly', which means burning about 1/3 of daily resources overcoming it. Actual CR is about 1/2, which means a part of 4 level 1s is 800 xp (about CR 3). Plenty of critters have dubious CR, but summon effects would be off even if all CRs were perfect. If you changed summons to be your choice of:
all your choices would be competitive. The 'weak' version is probably better balanced for the normal level of these spells.
But this isn’t a summoning spell.
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It creates monsters. The fact that they're animated objects rather than conjurations doesn't really matter in terms of game play.
It doesn’t create “Monsters” anymore than Arcane Hand does. Making them individual “creatures” just streamlined the rules to account for varying sized objects and the fact that they can autopilot.
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No, you are "creating" attacks. No more, no less.
That’s not true either. Think of it as turning random stuff into temporarily “awakened” stuff, with no more intelligence than an Invisible servant. They’re like the brooms in Fantasia. Or the pots and pans in Disney’s animated The sword in the Stone.
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Nope, conjured creatures have important distinctions:
In any case, I think I can be satisfied with a couple of changes:
I chose to particularly nerf tiny because it's by far the easiest size to arrange to have ten of sitting around.
@Pantagruel666
That's nice and all, but this is not the Homebrew Forum...
I can't find anything about the possibility of communication from an animated object. Be it telepathic or voice. I have decided that at higher levels of the spell, it can communicate with the caster via voice or telepathy depending on what makes the most sense at the time.
If there are RAW somewhere to counter this, can someone let me know.
The spell doesn't say that the objects can communicate and thus they can't, that's how the rules for these things usually works. If you want to change that then that's fine, just consider what the player might want to communicate about and if that will cause any issues in the game. Also remember that the object has an Int of 3.
The potential is definitely there as presented in the Monster Manual: Animated Objects: "...Some animated objects (including many of those created in the Feywild) might converse fluently or adopt a persona, but most are simple automatons."
How you go about it looks like a GM call, as I can't find anything in the spell rule.
I started playing D&D from the basic box set in 1979.