Question regarding the Feat Magic Initiate. Before you go, here we go again, everything I have found when searching this, concerns itself to the casting the 1st level spell.
I wish to have clarified as stated in the errata/FAQ's, I believe, if it is on your spell casters spell list you can expend one of your slots to cast it at a higher level.(I may be wrong here) That’s OK if you are referring to a spell that requires a slot.
Here is the question
Let us say you have a Warlock whom takes MI and selects Cleric, choosing the following cantrip “Toll the Dead” (which is on both the Cleric and Warlock spell list) now, does the Warlock use his spell save DC base on Chr or the Cleric’s one based on Wis.
As Warlock could state he is casting the cantrip as a Warlock.
If you chose to get your first level spell and two cantrips from the warlock spell list then you use the warlock DC. However if you decide to get them from and alternative spell list such as cleric you would use the cleric DC. Hope this helps.
You can't just "state" that you are casting it as a warlock just because it's on the warlock spell list. The feat is very specific that you use WIS if you did the cleric option in the feat.
If the above Warlock chose the 1st level spell "Protection from Evil and Good" which is on both warlock and cleric spell list. And it states in the following Sage Advice Compendium
According to RAW, each spell that your character can cast in some way has a class or ability score associated with it. Slots are only for class spells -- for example, the wizard spellcasting feature tells you that you can use your slots on "your wizard spells." Multiclass rules spell it out even more clearly:
Each spell you know and prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
So if you know a spell that isn't associated with a class, the text implies you can never use slots on it -- only the castings of the feature that give you the spell without a class. That's fine because they almost always give you at least a casting ability.
But, we still have to consider Magic Initiate, which does give you a class associated with your spells. It has been clarified that you can only cast a MI spell using slots if you otherwise meet its requirements. That means a warlock must know it (good, that is apparently what you get when you take the feat -- a known spell) and it must be a warlock spell (or one of "your classes" if you are a multiclass character). That last bit is the sticking point -- if you take the cleric version, the feat says the spells it gives count as cleric spells for you. Apparently you cannot cast a cleric spell with your warlock slots if you have no levels of cleric.
Apparently the only way to get an additional "spell known" that you can use with slots from MI is to choose a "spells known" class that you already have levels in.
I'm not really sure if that is all RAI, but it doesn't seem RAF -- I'd probably just let you cast the MI spell with slots no matter what at my table. Maybe I've made some error somewhere in my logic, but what I've stated above seems to be RAW. Some people have argued this topic to great lengths, so might try to argue my statements above, and that's ok too. Maybe I did make an error -- but I think to read it any other way you have to leave out some of the text I pointed out.
another question, do you actually learn the spell? so can you cast it using your warlock spell slots, even if it is not on the warlock spell list
There is some advice on this: I think the answer is generally no because of what I've said above. You learn the spell, but you can only use your slots on spells that are associated with classes that you have levels in.
another question, do you actually learn the spell? so can you cast it using your warlock spell slots, even if it is not on the warlock spell list
The feat expressly states that you “learn” the spell. If that spell appears on the spell list for a class you have levels in then you can use your spell slots to cast it in addition to the 1ce/day that the feat grants you. If that spell does not appear on a spell list for any class you have levels in, you can only cast it the 1ce/day.
Spell slots are agnostic towards class. So if you have 5 levels of Warlock, and 1 level of Cleric, and the spell in question appears on either of those class’ spell lists, you can use any of your spell slots to cast it. That includes the spell slots you get from being a cleric, and/or the spell slots from you Pact Magic feature.
Now lets look at this for a cantrip on which appears on both the warlock and cleric spell list. But have no levels in cleric. e.g. "Toll the Dead" (which has been learnt through the feat)
So using this I can cast "Toll the Dead" a 0 level spell using one of my unlimited amount of 0 level warlock spell slots???? so there fore using my warlock DC????
The class associated with a spell you learn or prepare is dependent on the feature you learn or prepare it from, not the list that it is on. "My warlock spells" are the spells that I choose as part of my pact magic feature or given to me from something else that say "these count as warlock spells for you."
So the cantrips are handled differently that the first level spell this feat grants you.
As per
The feat expressly states that you “learn” the spell. If that spell appears on the spell list for a class you have levels in then you can use your spell slots to cast it in addition to the 1ce/day that the feat grants you.
If the Warlock took "Protection from Evil and Good" he could cast it 1ce/day as a cleric spell, but could also cast it using a warlock spell slot.
Even if you use a warlock slot to cast the spells you learn for Magic Initiate Cleric, the DCs/Spell Attack modifier/Spell Casting ability modifier will be based on your Wisdom score. Not your Charisma.
If you don't want to bother with separate calculations, and you just really want the cantrip, just take magic initiate warlock ( and YES, you CAN take the feat for a class you already have ). Then everything will be based on Charisma, and you can use all slots to cast the spells.
OK I thank every ones input and answers this has cleared it up a bit
Looks like I not going to go down this path as if I am casting the cantrips as a cleric not worth taking as DC would be like 11 so not worth the effect.
As I really wanted to take the 1st level cleric spell "Shield of Faith" with has no scaling. and gives me better AC so I will not get hit (AC 16 with the +2) as easily.
If you take 1 level of Sorcerer and pick the Celestial origin then the entire Cleric spell list will count as Sorcerer spells for you. Sorcerers also use Cha as their Spellcasting Ability. That will include Shield of Faith, Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, Healing Word.... You will learn 2 additional 1st-level spells, 1 specific 1st-level spell chosen from a list of 5, Light, and 4 other additional Cantrips as well as Favored by the Gods which can be clutch for Concentration rolls.
If you take 1 level of Sorcerer and pick the Celestial origin then the entire Cleric spell list will count as Sorcerer spells for you. Sorcerers also use Cha as their Spellcasting Ability. That will include Shield of Faith, Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, Healing Word.... You will learn 2 additional 1st-level spells, 1 specific 1st-level spell chosen from a list of 5, Light, and 4 other additional Cantrips as well as Favored by the Gods which can be clutch for Concentration rolls.
No, they will not. He is allowed to pick his spells from the cleric or sorcerer lists, but only the spells he picks become sorcerer spells for him.
If you take 1 level of Sorcerer and pick the Celestial origin then the entire Cleric spell list will count as Sorcerer spells for you. Sorcerers also use Cha as their Spellcasting Ability. That will include Shield of Faith, Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, Healing Word.... You will learn 2 additional 1st-level spells, 1 specific 1st-level spell chosen from a list of 5, Light, and 4 other additional Cantrips as well as Favored by the Gods which can be clutch for Concentration rolls.
No, they will not. He is allowed to pick his spells from the cleric or sorcerer lists, but only the spells he picks become sorcerer spells for him.
True, I should have been more specific. But that’s still 5 Cantrips and 3 1st-level spells from either the Sorcerer or Cleric spell lists all cast using Cha. And once they are “learned” the PC could use either their 2 1st-level Sorcerer Slots or their Pact Magic slots to cast them.
If you take 1 level of Sorcerer and pick the Celestial origin then the entire Cleric spell list will count as Sorcerer spells for you. Sorcerers also use Cha as their Spellcasting Ability. That will include Shield of Faith, Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, Healing Word.... You will learn 2 additional 1st-level spells, 1 specific 1st-level spell chosen from a list of 5, Light, and 4 other additional Cantrips as well as Favored by the Gods which can be clutch for Concentration rolls.
If you're expanding the scope to include multiclassing, then just dip the warlock a level of cleric and skip the feat altogether. I assume it was a conscious decision for the OP to consider a feat instead of multiclassing rather than that just not occurring to them as an option.
Question regarding the Feat Magic Initiate. Before you go, here we go again, everything I have found when searching this, concerns itself to the casting the 1st level spell.
I wish to have clarified as stated in the errata/FAQ's, I believe, if it is on your spell casters spell list you can expend one of your slots to cast it at a higher level.(I may be wrong here) That’s OK if you are referring to a spell that requires a slot.
Here is the question
Let us say you have a Warlock whom takes MI and selects Cleric, choosing the following cantrip “Toll the Dead” (which is on both the Cleric and Warlock spell list) now, does the Warlock use his spell save DC base on Chr or the Cleric’s one based on Wis.
As Warlock could state he is casting the cantrip as a Warlock.
Thanks in advance for all feed back.
If you chose to get your first level spell and two cantrips from the warlock spell list then you use the warlock DC. However if you decide to get them from and alternative spell list such as cleric you would use the cleric DC. Hope this helps.
You can't just "state" that you are casting it as a warlock just because it's on the warlock spell list. The feat is very specific that you use WIS if you did the cleric option in the feat.
Thanks for the replies.
So for further clarification on this
If the above Warlock chose the 1st level spell "Protection from Evil and Good" which is on both warlock and cleric spell list. And it states in the following Sage Advice Compendium
https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf
That because i know the spell and have the feat I can cast it as a cleric once per long rest and also cast it using my 2nd level warlock spell slot?
Am I reading this wrong
Thanks in advance.
Depends on who you ask.
According to RAW, each spell that your character can cast in some way has a class or ability score associated with it. Slots are only for class spells -- for example, the wizard spellcasting feature tells you that you can use your slots on "your wizard spells." Multiclass rules spell it out even more clearly:
So if you know a spell that isn't associated with a class, the text implies you can never use slots on it -- only the castings of the feature that give you the spell without a class. That's fine because they almost always give you at least a casting ability.
But, we still have to consider Magic Initiate, which does give you a class associated with your spells. It has been clarified that you can only cast a MI spell using slots if you otherwise meet its requirements. That means a warlock must know it (good, that is apparently what you get when you take the feat -- a known spell) and it must be a warlock spell (or one of "your classes" if you are a multiclass character). That last bit is the sticking point -- if you take the cleric version, the feat says the spells it gives count as cleric spells for you. Apparently you cannot cast a cleric spell with your warlock slots if you have no levels of cleric.
Apparently the only way to get an additional "spell known" that you can use with slots from MI is to choose a "spells known" class that you already have levels in.
I'm not really sure if that is all RAI, but it doesn't seem RAF -- I'd probably just let you cast the MI spell with slots no matter what at my table. Maybe I've made some error somewhere in my logic, but what I've stated above seems to be RAW. Some people have argued this topic to great lengths, so might try to argue my statements above, and that's ok too. Maybe I did make an error -- but I think to read it any other way you have to leave out some of the text I pointed out.
Thankyou very much
another question, do you actually learn the spell? so can you cast it using your warlock spell slots, even if it is not on the warlock spell list
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I think the feat tells you everything you need to know. It makes you a minor dabbler into the magics of another class.
There is some advice on this: I think the answer is generally no because of what I've said above. You learn the spell, but you can only use your slots on spells that are associated with classes that you have levels in.
The feat expressly states that you “learn” the spell. If that spell appears on the spell list for a class you have levels in then you can use your spell slots to cast it in addition to the 1ce/day that the feat grants you. If that spell does not appear on a spell list for any class you have levels in, you can only cast it the 1ce/day.
Spell slots are agnostic towards class. So if you have 5 levels of Warlock, and 1 level of Cleric, and the spell in question appears on either of those class’ spell lists, you can use any of your spell slots to cast it. That includes the spell slots you get from being a cleric, and/or the spell slots from you Pact Magic feature.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Thank you for this clarification.
Now lets look at this for a cantrip on which appears on both the warlock and cleric spell list. But have no levels in cleric. e.g. "Toll the Dead" (which has been learnt through the feat)
So using this I can cast "Toll the Dead" a 0 level spell using one of my unlimited amount of 0 level warlock spell slots???? so there fore using my warlock DC????
No, you learned it as a Cleric spell, you use Wis for all of these spells.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The class associated with a spell you learn or prepare is dependent on the feature you learn or prepare it from, not the list that it is on. "My warlock spells" are the spells that I choose as part of my pact magic feature or given to me from something else that say "these count as warlock spells for you."
Thanks for that.
So the cantrips are handled differently that the first level spell this feat grants you.
As per
If the Warlock took "Protection from Evil and Good" he could cast it 1ce/day as a cleric spell, but could also cast it using a warlock spell slot.
But cannot do the same with cantrip spells.
I am confused.
Even if you use a warlock slot to cast the spells you learn for Magic Initiate Cleric, the DCs/Spell Attack modifier/Spell Casting ability modifier will be based on your Wisdom score. Not your Charisma.
If you don't want to bother with separate calculations, and you just really want the cantrip, just take magic initiate warlock ( and YES, you CAN take the feat for a class you already have ). Then everything will be based on Charisma, and you can use all slots to cast the spells.
OK I thank every ones input and answers this has cleared it up a bit
Looks like I not going to go down this path as if I am casting the cantrips as a cleric not worth taking as DC would be like 11 so not worth the effect.
As I really wanted to take the 1st level cleric spell "Shield of Faith" with has no scaling. and gives me better AC so I will not get hit (AC 16 with the +2) as easily.
Well back to the drawing board.
If you take 1 level of Sorcerer and pick the Celestial origin then the entire Cleric spell list will count as Sorcerer spells for you. Sorcerers also use Cha as their Spellcasting Ability. That will include Shield of Faith, Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, Healing Word.... You will learn 2 additional 1st-level spells, 1 specific 1st-level spell chosen from a list of 5, Light, and 4 other additional Cantrips as well as Favored by the Gods which can be clutch for Concentration rolls.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
No, they will not. He is allowed to pick his spells from the cleric or sorcerer lists, but only the spells he picks become sorcerer spells for him.
True, I should have been more specific. But that’s still 5 Cantrips and 3 1st-level spells from either the Sorcerer or Cleric spell lists all cast using Cha. And once they are “learned” the PC could use either their 2 1st-level Sorcerer Slots or their Pact Magic slots to cast them.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If you're expanding the scope to include multiclassing, then just dip the warlock a level of cleric and skip the feat altogether. I assume it was a conscious decision for the OP to consider a feat instead of multiclassing rather than that just not occurring to them as an option.
"Not all those who wander are lost"