Because I know not everyone likes relying on sage advice, I'll pull directly from the PHB (Chapter 7).
The three main rolls of the game — the ability check, the saving throw, and the attack roll — rely on the six ability scores. The Introduction describes the basic rule behind these rolls: roll a d20, add an ability modifier derived from one of the six ability scores, and compare the total to a target number.
...
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
While I definitely can agree that there is a bit of a learning curve for new players to differentiate everything, the rules are pretty explicit. Attack Rolls, Ability checks, and saving throws are all different, distinct types of rolls.
And yes - Initiative is a Dexterity check, which makes it an ability check. A Skill check is a type of ability check that additionally can add skill proficiencies to the roll. This is also described in Chapter 7 of the PHB.
Sometimes, the DM might ask for an ability check using a specific skill — for example, “Make a Wisdom (Perception) check.” At other times, a player might ask the DM if proficiency in a particular skill applies to a check. In either case, proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill. Without proficiency in the skill, the individual makes a normal ability check.
Attack rolls and saving throws are not ability checks, as detailed in the sage advice compendium:
a check and an ability check it's not the same...
That is incorrect. There are three (and only three) types of d20 rolls a player can make.
Attack Rolls (aka “Attacks”)
Saving Throws (aka “Saves”)
Ability Checks (aka “Checks”)*
*Technically there are no such things as “skill checks” in 5e. There are only Ability Checks, and sometimes those include a character’s Proficiency bonus. The determining factor for this is if the DM decides to call for either a straight “Ability Check,” or an “Ability ([Skill]) Check” combined with whether or not the PC is Proficient with whichever ([Skill]) the DM decided was applicable.
You can double check the veracity of my statement yourself by following these links:
There’s some other oddball d20 rolls, like Divination Wizard’s. But yeah, those three categories are pretty much it.
Thank you, I had forgotten about that. Those oddballs are so few and far between after all.
There are a fair number, but they usually worded to avoid any use of the terms "attack roll" ".....check", or "saving throw" or its variant. I use the d20 roll in mirror image a lot since nearly all of my spellcasting PCs have that spell and use it often
As I see no one is reading... in the rule books states that, ability checks, saving throws and attacks are check rolls, BUT ability checks use a skill like Perception to see if you can add your proficiency or not, as the same with saving throws checks Initiative it's not an ability check is a Dexterity check that benefits for anything that gives adventatge to Dexterity checks, wich includes skills, attacks, saving throws or any check that uses Dexterity in general
It important to know that any roll that involves to add your stat can be a check, the creators only named attack rolls, saving throws and ability check diferent to not confuse the newcomers with three checks that all of them are checks but they are diferent to clarify when a spell or feature affects all the check or only one or more types, that why in this spell says checks in general and not ability checks like other spells like Hex that says that only afects ability but not saving or attack
It has to be said that this question was made to an oficial representative of Dungeons and Dragons that came to the city in an event to let the young know about this game and said ""It's easy to newcomers to play, you only need to remember three check rolls, attacks, savings and abilities" of course it explained all three of them with a PowerPoint and some videos so I'm going to follow what an expert and oficial DM in that event said cause if he said I really doubt that is wrong about that all the three basic rolls are check but named for better understanding
As I see no one is reading... in the rule books states that, ability checks, saving throws and attacks are check rolls, BUT ability checks use a skill like Perception to see if you can add your proficiency or not, as the same with saving throws checks Initiative it's not an ability check is a Dexterity check that benefits for anything that gives adventatge to Dexterity checks, wich includes skills, attacks, saving throws or any check that uses Dexterity in general
It important to know that any roll that involves to add your stat can be a check, the creators only named attack rolls, saving throws and ability check diferent to not confuse the newcomers with three checks that all of them are checks but they are diferent to clarify when a spell or feature affects all the check or only one or more types, that why in this spell says checks in general and not ability checks like other spells like Hex that says that only afects ability but not saving or attack
It has to be said that this question was made to an oficial representative of Dungeons and Dragons that came to the city in an event to let the young know about this game and said ""It's easy to newcomers to play, you only need to remember three check rolls, attacks, savings and abilities" of course it explained all three of them with a PowerPoint and some videos so I'm going to follow what an expert and oficial DM in that event said cause if he said I really doubt that is wrong about that all the three basic rolls are check but named for better understanding
Unless your rep was quoting directly from the rules source, I would take anything said with a grain of salt, as even in an attempt at honest communication the wrong word may be said (or a word misapplied).
Also, the rules do not say that Saving throws and attack rolls are checks...they are different things described in different areas:
They all have similar mechanics (roll d20 + modifiers) but that does not make them the same thing, and only Ability Checks are described as "Checks" Even in the intro to Chapter 7 of Basic Rules (see below), they are named differently as the "three types of rolls" and nothing says they are all checks, just that they use similar mechanics
Is a character muscle-bound and insightful? Brilliant and charming? Nimble and hardy? Ability scores define these qualities--a creature's assets as well as weaknesses. The three main rolls of the game -- the ability check, the saving throw, and the attack roll -- rely on the six ability scores. The Introduction describes the basic rule behind these rolls: roll a d20, add an ability modifier derived from one of the six ability scores, and compare the total to a target number.
Also, from the Introduction:
Ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws are the three main kinds of d20 rolls, forming the core of the rules of the game. All three follow these simple steps.
If you are relying on advice from the experts, here is Jeremy Crawford, the guy who literally wrote the rules. When it comes to advice from D&D reps, you can't get any more official than that.
The Sage Advice Compendiumis really useful for clearing up a lot of rules and is actually really useful in this particular discussion
Are attack rolls and saving throws basically specialized ability checks? They aren’t. It’s easy to mistake the three rolls as three faces of the same thing, because they each involve rolling a d20, adding any modifiers, and comparing the total to a Difficulty Class, and they’re all subject to advantage and disadvantage. In short, they share the same procedure for determining success or failure.
Despite this common procedure, the three rolls are separate from each other. If something in the game, like the guidance spell, affects one of them, the other two aren’t affected unless the rules specifically say so. The next few questions touch on this point again.
Attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws are all mutually exclusive.
A constitution check is still an ability check, just like how a constitution save is still a saving throw. This applies across the board; a strength check is an ability check, a strength based attack is an attack roll, a strength save is a saving throw.
Initiative is a dexterity check and thus an ability check. Also important to note that death saving throws are still saving throws even though they don't add a modifier.
I'm starting to be a little exausted with check = ability check... you could say ability roll or ability throw and is going to be the same, so check = roll = throw the only that changes is the specification, and that's all what matters.
To end all of this, this spell give adventatge to attack, ability and saving checks?
Yes, but talk with your DM if he thinks that no, then no, but if your DM is smart then he/she would do it as I say, so is the good way if you can't use this rule, ignore this spell, cause your DM nerfed it to the bottom.
I'm starting to be a little exausted with check = ability check... you could say ability roll or ability throw and is going to be the same, so check = roll = throw the only that changes is the specification, and that's all what matters.
To end all of this, this spell give adventatge to attack, ability and saving checks?
Yes, but talk with your DM if he thinks that no, then no, but if your DM is smart then he/she would do it as I say, so is the good way if you can't use this rule, ignore this spell, cause your DM nerfed it to the bottom.
You know I can't imagine how tired the others are repeating themselves because you read about as much as you claim they are.
They have quotes the books at you an you are ignoring the actual words of the book you are using.
A check DOES NOT EQUAL a save. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT ROLLS. A check is not an attack and it is not a throw. Literally read anything that isn't your comments which fail to link back to any proof btw. All the others quote exact text from the books AND quotes from the creator.
Rolling a d20 IS NOT a check. ONLY when you roll a d20 in regards to an ABILITY CHECK is it considered a check by this spell. RAW. What you are suggesting is NOT RAW and is homebrew.
Kind of sounds like it could be an English barrier thing... but suffice to say, "check", "roll", and "throw" aren’t synonyms, and in fifth edition they are very clearly presented as distinct game concepts. While they all use a D20, they’re for different things, and the rules in no uncertain terms SAY they’re different things.
I'm starting to be a little exausted with check = ability check... you could say ability roll or ability throw and is going to be the same, so check = roll = throw the only that changes is the specification, and that's all what matters.
To end all of this, this spell give adventatge to attack, ability and saving checks?
Yes, but talk with your DM if he thinks that no, then no, but if your DM is smart then he/she would do it as I say, so is the good way if you can't use this rule, ignore this spell, cause your DM nerfed it to the bottom.
[REDACTED]. If you don't take the actual text of the rules, which plain as day describe how these are different things, at face value, then trying to persuade you otherwise is hopeless. Enjoy your homebrewing, because that is what you are doing here.
Signed, a DM who is apparently dumb because he has reading comprehension skills
But here's the better question: SHOULD the spell work for saving throws? In the three years I've been playing 5e, it usually gets cast and wasted because the party will have a hunch that strength or charisma or wisdom will be important, but when the situation occurs, it's a saving throw situation. As DM, I usually forget that it's only for ability checks until I re-read the spell. It doesn't make intuitive sense as written: If a spell makes you more nimble and acrobatic, you would be nimble whether you choose to do some cool parkour and if you have to tumble out of the way of a falling tree branch, but RAW your dexterity mysteriously fails you because the movements you want to make are necessitated by a tree and not your own motivation to do parkour. I honestly think I'm going to permanently rule it as checks and saves in my games, but I'd love to hear opinions why that would be broken or inappropriate.
And while we're at it, I have similar feelings about hex.
That would make hex too powerful. Hex is already powerful enough because it foils a creature’s attempts to Hide, mucks with an opponent’s ability to Grapple, and hinders the target’s attempts to Search. That can interfere with even some Legendary actions. Hex doesn’t need the help.
I agree with Iamsposta about Hex. Hex is already the top pick Warlock spell, at low levels adding disadvantage on wis saves for every enemy while the cleric casts toll the dead would be insane.
Enhance abilty is a niche spell, the hour long duration makes it useful for social encounters. In a campaign where I am a druid, whenever we are expecting a day of mostly social interaction I will prepare it and when required cast it on the face, where we are trying to get a lower price for our shopping or persuade the king to believe the threat we have uncovered and support us in the fight against it. Other than that it tends to only be used for a single check or two for example if you cant move a big stone out the way so you stack guidance, enhance abilty and possibly bardic inspiration to try to get it to budge.
I don't think adding saves to enhance ability breaks anything but it would become one of the most powerful spells in general and can step on other spells. 2nd level bless gives 4 people +1d4 to saves and attack rolls to 4 people for a minute, Enhance ability would give advantage (a much bigger boost) to 1 person for an hour at the same cost. Upcast at higher levels Owl's Wisdom would provide the main benefit of heroes feast (ok maybe not the main benefit if you are fighting a green dragon) without the gold cost and the ability to cast it with an action if the big bad turns up when you weren't expecting it but it does require concentration.
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Because I know not everyone likes relying on sage advice, I'll pull directly from the PHB (Chapter 7).
While I definitely can agree that there is a bit of a learning curve for new players to differentiate everything, the rules are pretty explicit. Attack Rolls, Ability checks, and saving throws are all different, distinct types of rolls.
And yes - Initiative is a Dexterity check, which makes it an ability check. A Skill check is a type of ability check that additionally can add skill proficiencies to the roll. This is also described in Chapter 7 of the PHB.
That is incorrect. There are three (and only three) types of d20 rolls a player can make.
*Technically there are no such things as “skill checks” in 5e. There are only Ability Checks, and sometimes those include a character’s Proficiency bonus. The determining factor for this is if the DM decides to call for either a straight “Ability Check,” or an “Ability ([Skill]) Check” combined with whether or not the PC is Proficient with whichever ([Skill]) the DM decided was applicable.
You can double check the veracity of my statement yourself by following these links:
I hope that helps.
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There’s some other oddball d20 rolls, like Divination Wizard’s. But yeah, those three categories are pretty much it.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thank you, I had forgotten about that. Those oddballs are so few and far between after all.
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There are a fair number, but they usually worded to avoid any use of the terms "attack roll" ".....check", or "saving throw" or its variant. I use the d20 roll in mirror image a lot since nearly all of my spellcasting PCs have that spell and use it often
As I see no one is reading...
in the rule books states that, ability checks, saving throws and attacks are check rolls, BUT ability checks use a skill like Perception to see if you can add your proficiency or not, as the same with saving throws checks
Initiative it's not an ability check is a Dexterity check that benefits for anything that gives adventatge to Dexterity checks, wich includes skills, attacks, saving throws or any check that uses Dexterity in general
It important to know that any roll that involves to add your stat can be a check, the creators only named attack rolls, saving throws and ability check diferent to not confuse the newcomers with three checks that all of them are checks but they are diferent to clarify when a spell or feature affects all the check or only one or more types, that why in this spell says checks in general and not ability checks like other spells like Hex that says that only afects ability but not saving or attack
It has to be said that this question was made to an oficial representative of Dungeons and Dragons that came to the city in an event to let the young know about this game and said ""It's easy to newcomers to play, you only need to remember three check rolls, attacks, savings and abilities" of course it explained all three of them with a PowerPoint and some videos so I'm going to follow what an expert and oficial DM in that event said cause if he said I really doubt that is wrong about that all the three basic rolls are check but named for better understanding
Unless your rep was quoting directly from the rules source, I would take anything said with a grain of salt, as even in an attempt at honest communication the wrong word may be said (or a word misapplied).
Also, the rules do not say that Saving throws and attack rolls are checks...they are different things described in different areas:
Ability Checks: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#AbilityChecks
Saving Throws: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#SavingThrows
Attack Rolls: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#AttackRolls
They all have similar mechanics (roll d20 + modifiers) but that does not make them the same thing, and only Ability Checks are described as "Checks" Even in the intro to Chapter 7 of Basic Rules (see below), they are named differently as the "three types of rolls" and nothing says they are all checks, just that they use similar mechanics
Also, from the Introduction:
If you are relying on advice from the experts, here is Jeremy Crawford, the guy who literally wrote the rules. When it comes to advice from D&D reps, you can't get any more official than that.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/08/23/jack-of-all-trades-bard/
Yes, Jack of All Trades can apply to initiative, since that roll is a Dexterity check.
Perhaps you misunderstood the rep, or the perhaps the rep made an honest mistake when attempting to simplify the rules for newcomers.
The Sage Advice Compendium is really useful for clearing up a lot of rules and is actually really useful in this particular discussion
Attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws are all mutually exclusive.
A constitution check is still an ability check, just like how a constitution save is still a saving throw. This applies across the board; a strength check is an ability check, a strength based attack is an attack roll, a strength save is a saving throw.
Initiative is a dexterity check and thus an ability check. Also important to note that death saving throws are still saving throws even though they don't add a modifier.
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I'm starting to be a little exausted with check = ability check... you could say ability roll or ability throw and is going to be the same, so check = roll = throw the only that changes is the specification, and that's all what matters.
To end all of this, this spell give adventatge to attack, ability and saving checks?
Yes, but talk with your DM if he thinks that no, then no, but if your DM is smart then he/she would do it as I say, so is the good way
if you can't use this rule, ignore this spell, cause your DM nerfed it to the bottom.
You know I can't imagine how tired the others are repeating themselves because you read about as much as you claim they are.
They have quotes the books at you an you are ignoring the actual words of the book you are using.
A check DOES NOT EQUAL a save. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT ROLLS. A check is not an attack and it is not a throw. Literally read anything that isn't your comments which fail to link back to any proof btw. All the others quote exact text from the books AND quotes from the creator.
Rolling a d20 IS NOT a check. ONLY when you roll a d20 in regards to an ABILITY CHECK is it considered a check by this spell. RAW. What you are suggesting is NOT RAW and is homebrew.
Kind of sounds like it could be an English barrier thing... but suffice to say, "check", "roll", and "throw" aren’t synonyms, and in fifth edition they are very clearly presented as distinct game concepts. While they all use a D20, they’re for different things, and the rules in no uncertain terms SAY they’re different things.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
[REDACTED]. If you don't take the actual text of the rules, which plain as day describe how these are different things, at face value, then trying to persuade you otherwise is hopeless. Enjoy your homebrewing, because that is what you are doing here.
Signed, a DM who is apparently dumb because he has reading comprehension skills
But here's the better question: SHOULD the spell work for saving throws? In the three years I've been playing 5e, it usually gets cast and wasted because the party will have a hunch that strength or charisma or wisdom will be important, but when the situation occurs, it's a saving throw situation. As DM, I usually forget that it's only for ability checks until I re-read the spell. It doesn't make intuitive sense as written: If a spell makes you more nimble and acrobatic, you would be nimble whether you choose to do some cool parkour and if you have to tumble out of the way of a falling tree branch, but RAW your dexterity mysteriously fails you because the movements you want to make are necessitated by a tree and not your own motivation to do parkour. I honestly think I'm going to permanently rule it as checks and saves in my games, but I'd love to hear opinions why that would be broken or inappropriate.
And while we're at it, I have similar feelings about hex.
That would make hex too powerful. Hex is already powerful enough because it foils a creature’s attempts to Hide, mucks with an opponent’s ability to Grapple, and hinders the target’s attempts to Search. That can interfere with even some Legendary actions. Hex doesn’t need the help.
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I agree with Iamsposta about Hex. Hex is already the top pick Warlock spell, at low levels adding disadvantage on wis saves for every enemy while the cleric casts toll the dead would be insane.
Enhance abilty is a niche spell, the hour long duration makes it useful for social encounters. In a campaign where I am a druid, whenever we are expecting a day of mostly social interaction I will prepare it and when required cast it on the face, where we are trying to get a lower price for our shopping or persuade the king to believe the threat we have uncovered and support us in the fight against it. Other than that it tends to only be used for a single check or two for example if you cant move a big stone out the way so you stack guidance, enhance abilty and possibly bardic inspiration to try to get it to budge.
I don't think adding saves to enhance ability breaks anything but it would become one of the most powerful spells in general and can step on other spells. 2nd level bless gives 4 people +1d4 to saves and attack rolls to 4 people for a minute, Enhance ability would give advantage (a much bigger boost) to 1 person for an hour at the same cost. Upcast at higher levels Owl's Wisdom would provide the main benefit of heroes feast (ok maybe not the main benefit if you are fighting a green dragon) without the gold cost and the ability to cast it with an action if the big bad turns up when you weren't expecting it but it does require concentration.