I ask this simple question because I have a Cleric using Channel Divinity: Touch of Death which states "When you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can spend a Channel Divinity use to deal an extra X points of necrotic damage."
Does this work with Spiritual Weapon? I say no because the Cleric is not delivering the attack, it is through a spell and the spiritual weapon is delivering the attack. Opinions/Thoughts?
What about spells? I'm pretty sure he added it to Toll the Dead; there's no mention of melee in there.
What about Inflict Wounds. That's a "melee spell attack", not a "melee attack". Wouldn't it say "any type of melee attack" so as to include spell attacks?
It's confusing and I don't mind the extra power, when warranted. He has a greatsword and I'm thinking that the proper way is ONLY when he inflicts damage with that greatsword.
But I'm having trouble convincing him that I'm right. Am I? :)
My understanding is a Melee attach is an attack with a weapon. But other melee attacks can be an attack with a tail or a bite or even a fist. It is not a Ranged attack and it is not a Spell attack. I hope that explains it for you.
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I think it works with Spiritual Weapon because it says 'you can make a melee spell attack'... this still counts as a melee attack. If it helps, think of it as the way a wizard casts a touch spell through his familiar, the wizard is still casting the spell... in this case the cleric is using the spell to make the attack, it's almost like dual wielding except that one is magical and floating around making the attacks.
I don't think it works with Toll the Dead because this is not a melee attack, it is a spell that requires a saving throw.
Again, I think it works with Inflict Wounds because it says 'make a melee spell attack.'
I can see how the wording 'melee spell attack' would make you think it is different than a melee attack but it's just using magic to make a melee attack. So long as it has the words melee and attack somewhere in there I would allow it, also if it says you're making the attack or make an attack (implying you)... but not if it specifically says someone or something else is making the melee attack.
A "melee attack" can be either a "melee weapon attack" (which includes unarmed strikes), a "melee spell attack," or also some special melee attacks that don't fit those categories and behave oddly (Grapple and Shove fall into this category). Those special melee attacks involve opposed skill checks and don't actually "hit," though, so "typically" we're talking about melee weapon attacks and melee spell attacks.
When you make an attack, your attack roll determines whether the attack hits or misses. To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. If the total of the roll plus modifiers equals or exceeds the target's Armor Class (AC), the attack hits. The AC of a character is determined at character creation, whereas the AC of a monster is in its stat block.
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Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
Starting at 2nd level, the cleric can use Channel Divinity to destroy another creature’s life force by touch.
When the cleric hits a creature with a melee attack, the cleric can use Channel Divinity to deal extra necrotic damage to the target. The damage equals 5 + twice his or her cleric level.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you canmake a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.
So yes, quite literally Touch of Death applies to Spiritual Weapon. The Spell's text makes clear that "you can make" the attack, meaning it is indeed the Cleric making the attack and not the weapon on its own. Contrast, for example, Dancing Sword, where the sword is making attacks (using your stats), not you yourself:
You can use a bonus action to toss this magic sword into the air and speak the command word. When you do so, the sword begins to hover, flies up to 30 feet, and attacks one creature of your choice within 5 feet of it. The sword uses your attack roll and ability score modifier to damage rolls.
You point at one creature you can see within range, and the sound of a dolorous bell fills the air around it for a moment. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d8 necrotic damage. If the target is missing any of its hit points, it instead takes 1d12 necrotic damage.
In that Spirual Weapon and inflict woulds are classed as a melee attack but toll the dead is a save so is not a melee attack (even if the enemy is within your melee range)
An attack is (very broadly speaking) going to be one of these 4 things:
Melee weapon attack
Ranged weapon attack
Melee spell attack
Ranged spell attack
1 and 3 would qualify for the Death cleric's Channel Divinity. so both his greatsword hits and Inflict Wounds casts would be fine.
Toll the Dead, however, is not an attack at all. There's no attack roll, and no mention of 'spell attack' in the description. Even if he's stood next to the target it's not a valid vehicle for the Channel Divinity.
To the title of this thread, a melee attack includes any spell, weapon, or natural attack with the melee descriptor. However, there are some caveats to how this affects the ability in question, so looking at the ability:
Channel Divinity: Touch of Death
Starting at 2nd level, the cleric can use Channel Divinity to destroy another creature’s life force by touch.
When the cleric hits a creature with a melee attack, the cleric can use Channel Divinity to deal extra necrotic damage to the target. The damage equals 5 + twice his or her cleric level.
As written, the cleric must be one the to hit with the attack. The issue with this is the following: What constitutes a hit by the cleric?
I think that any attack which forces the cleric to make contact with the target, either with their own hand or a held item, would be covered by this clause without question. Spells and effects which permit you control another object or creature without holding them (such as Spiritual Weapon), however, may not be included based on the DM's interpretation.
Looking at Spiritual Weapon:
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it.
The spell states "you can make a melee spell attack", but it is technically the weapon which hits your target as you are not wielding it, but rather controlling it from a distance.
Technically, this could be argued either way, as you made the attack, but were not actually wielding the weapon. As such, it becomes a matter of semantics, though I doubt that it was intended to function this way.
Either way, I see no real balance issue as this ability can still only be used a limited number of times per rest, and the only spells I am aware of which grant this type of ranged melee attack are: Thorn Whip (1 action, you could be holding the whip, but this is unspecified), Spiritual Weapon (1 bonus action), Mordenkainen's Sword (1 bonus action), and Steel Wind Strike (1 action, damage is supposedly from you moving and attacking at blinding speed).
In short, attacks in which your character makes physical contact with the targeted creature can take advantage of this effect, per RAW. Ones which grant a melee attack at rage, however, are up to the DM's interpretation of what constitutes a hit by the cleric, so expect variance until someone gets a response from the AL admins.
In the meantime, while Sage Advice is not technically AL binding, consider showing your DM the following post from WotC Designer Jeremy Crawford:
Nah, it's actually and technically the Cleric making that attack, because of the very language you've cited that "you make a melee spell attack." If the feature were intended to be limited to the cleric wielding a physical weapon, it would say "melee weapon attack." And if it really wanted to double down, it could have read "melee weapon attack with a weapon you are wielding" or "melee weapon attack you make against a creature within your reach" or something like that.
Don't try to come up with (unwritten) ways to deprive characters of their class features, it's a bad way to approach rule interpretation.
I ask this simple question because I have a Cleric using Channel Divinity: Touch of Death which states "When you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can spend a Channel Divinity use to deal an extra X points of necrotic damage."
Does this work with Spiritual Weapon? I say no because the Cleric is not delivering the attack, it is through a spell and the spiritual weapon is delivering the attack. Opinions/Thoughts?
What about spells? I'm pretty sure he added it to Toll the Dead; there's no mention of melee in there.
What about Inflict Wounds. That's a "melee spell attack", not a "melee attack". Wouldn't it say "any type of melee attack" so as to include spell attacks?
It's confusing and I don't mind the extra power, when warranted. He has a greatsword and I'm thinking that the proper way is ONLY when he inflicts damage with that greatsword.
But I'm having trouble convincing him that I'm right. Am I? :)
My understanding is a Melee attach is an attack with a weapon. But other melee attacks can be an attack with a tail or a bite or even a fist. It is not a Ranged attack and it is not a Spell attack. I hope that explains it for you.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I think it works with Spiritual Weapon because it says 'you can make a melee spell attack'... this still counts as a melee attack. If it helps, think of it as the way a wizard casts a touch spell through his familiar, the wizard is still casting the spell... in this case the cleric is using the spell to make the attack, it's almost like dual wielding except that one is magical and floating around making the attacks.
I don't think it works with Toll the Dead because this is not a melee attack, it is a spell that requires a saving throw.
Again, I think it works with Inflict Wounds because it says 'make a melee spell attack.'
I can see how the wording 'melee spell attack' would make you think it is different than a melee attack but it's just using magic to make a melee attack. So long as it has the words melee and attack somewhere in there I would allow it, also if it says you're making the attack or make an attack (implying you)... but not if it specifically says someone or something else is making the melee attack.
A "melee attack" can be either a "melee weapon attack" (which includes unarmed strikes), a "melee spell attack," or also some special melee attacks that don't fit those categories and behave oddly (Grapple and Shove fall into this category). Those special melee attacks involve opposed skill checks and don't actually "hit," though, so "typically" we're talking about melee weapon attacks and melee spell attacks.
The Touch of Death feature reads:
Spiritual Weapon reads in relevant part:
So yes, quite literally Touch of Death applies to Spiritual Weapon. The Spell's text makes clear that "you can make" the attack, meaning it is indeed the Cleric making the attack and not the weapon on its own. Contrast, for example, Dancing Sword, where the sword is making attacks (using your stats), not you yourself:
As for Toll the Dead, that spell does not require an attack roll, and does not involve making a melee (or even ranged) spell attack, so Touch of Death would not apply:
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I would look in the Attack/Save colume of the Cleric Spell list.
In that Spirual Weapon and inflict woulds are classed as a melee attack but toll the dead is a save so is not a melee attack (even if the enemy is within your melee range)
An attack is (very broadly speaking) going to be one of these 4 things:
1 and 3 would qualify for the Death cleric's Channel Divinity. so both his greatsword hits and Inflict Wounds casts would be fine.
Toll the Dead, however, is not an attack at all. There's no attack roll, and no mention of 'spell attack' in the description. Even if he's stood next to the target it's not a valid vehicle for the Channel Divinity.
To the title of this thread, a melee attack includes any spell, weapon, or natural attack with the melee descriptor. However, there are some caveats to how this affects the ability in question, so looking at the ability:
As written, the cleric must be one the to hit with the attack. The issue with this is the following: What constitutes a hit by the cleric?
I think that any attack which forces the cleric to make contact with the target, either with their own hand or a held item, would be covered by this clause without question. Spells and effects which permit you control another object or creature without holding them (such as Spiritual Weapon), however, may not be included based on the DM's interpretation.
Looking at Spiritual Weapon:
The spell states "you can make a melee spell attack", but it is technically the weapon which hits your target as you are not wielding it, but rather controlling it from a distance.
Technically, this could be argued either way, as you made the attack, but were not actually wielding the weapon. As such, it becomes a matter of semantics, though I doubt that it was intended to function this way.
Either way, I see no real balance issue as this ability can still only be used a limited number of times per rest, and the only spells I am aware of which grant this type of ranged melee attack are: Thorn Whip (1 action, you could be holding the whip, but this is unspecified), Spiritual Weapon (1 bonus action), Mordenkainen's Sword (1 bonus action), and Steel Wind Strike (1 action, damage is supposedly from you moving and attacking at blinding speed).
In short, attacks in which your character makes physical contact with the targeted creature can take advantage of this effect, per RAW. Ones which grant a melee attack at rage, however, are up to the DM's interpretation of what constitutes a hit by the cleric, so expect variance until someone gets a response from the AL admins.
In the meantime, while Sage Advice is not technically AL binding, consider showing your DM the following post from WotC Designer Jeremy Crawford:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/04/melee-spell-attack-and-melee-attack/
Nah, it's actually and technically the Cleric making that attack, because of the very language you've cited that "you make a melee spell attack." If the feature were intended to be limited to the cleric wielding a physical weapon, it would say "melee weapon attack." And if it really wanted to double down, it could have read "melee weapon attack with a weapon you are wielding" or "melee weapon attack you make against a creature within your reach" or something like that.
Don't try to come up with (unwritten) ways to deprive characters of their class features, it's a bad way to approach rule interpretation.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Chicken_Champ nailed it.
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