Also, you don't actually know which Spiritual guardians that is the most potent since you roll for damage at seperate occassions.
No you don't, as with all spells, I believe that you roll it once and apply it throughout the duration.
You roll once per trigger. You don't roll the first turn of a 1 minute duration spell and apply that the entire duration. Each turn you roll the associated dice for the effect, and that's what gets applied that turn.
In the case of Spirit Guardians, you'd roll the 3d8 each time it affects a target.
You do not roll 3d8 once when you cast the spell, record that number, and apply it each time the damage is triggered.
No you don't, as with all spells, I believe that you roll it once and apply it throughout the duration.
No, let's put a stop to that kind of magical thinking immediately. There is no general rule stating that damage for an ongoing spell is rolled once for the entirety of the spell's duration. That is just flat-out false for RAW mechanics. You roll for each creature affected, each time it is triggered, individually, unless the spell specifically states otherwise. I can't think of any that do behave that way, but I'm sure there's at least one.
Anyway, it seems the community is in overwhelming agreement here, and I'm not seeing any actual evidence to the contrary.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
To clarify that - in case there's any confusion - you roll damage whenever damage is triggered, but you just roll once. With Spirit Guardians the damage is triggered at the start of an affected creature's turn, so you roll damage for that creature at that time. When the next affected creature's turn comes up, you roll their damage, etc.
For a spell like Fireball that hits multiple creatures all at once, you roll damage once and every affected creature takes that damage (or half, if they save.) You don't roll different damage for each creature.
To clarify that - in case there's any confusion - you roll damage whenever damage is triggered, but you just roll once. With Spirit Guardians the damage is triggered at the start of an affected creature's turn, so you roll damage for that creature at that time. When the next affected creature's turn comes up, you roll their damage, etc.
For a spell like Fireball that hits multiple creatures all at once, you roll damage once and every affected creature takes that damage (or half, if they save.) You don't roll different damage for each creature.
Right. Any spell that can hit multiple targets simultaneously gets rolled once for all damage, any spell that does not hit simultaneously does not. Even when hitting four different targets with four bolts from one casting of Eldritch Blast get rolled independently since they hit sequentially, not simultaneously.
For a spell like Fireball that hits multiple creatures all at once, you roll damage once and every affected creature takes that damage (or half, if they save.) You don't roll different damage for each creature.
This is a very common table rule (I've used it in plenty of campaigns) to prevent bottlenecking the session while resolving many rolls, but it is in no way RAW. As far as I can tell, there is no reference (as a system rule) to ever making a singular damage roll for an entire group of AoE targets. RAW is a distinct roll for each affected creature, unless a spell specifically states otherwise. Fireball isn't one of those.
If you know for sure it's an actual rule (and not just a suggestion from the DMG), please link it, because that would be a big deal.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
For a spell like Fireball that hits multiple creatures all at once, you roll damage once and every affected creature takes that damage (or half, if they save.) You don't roll different damage for each creature.
This is a very common table rule (I've used it in plenty of campaigns) to prevent bottlenecking the session while resolving many rolls, but it is in no way RAW. As far as I can tell, there is no reference (as a system rule) to ever making a singular damage roll for an entire group of AoE targets. RAW is a distinct roll for each affected creature, unless a spell specifically states otherwise. Fireball isn't one of those.
If you know for sure it's an actual rule (and not just a suggestion from the DMG), please link it, because that would be a big deal.
Edit: Can be found in the PHB, p196, Part 2- Chapter 9: Combat
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
Under Damage rolls in "Combat" in chapter 9 of the PHB:
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
Cool, thanks! I find it really odd that they don't have any reference to that in the actual Spellcasting chapter, but it's clear as day now!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I also find it strange that it's not mentioned in that section, and doesn't seem to be at all in the DMG.
I believe it was different in some of the older editions. In 4e I'm pretty sure that it still had a single damage roll, but the caster rolled attack rolls against each target rather than the targets saving. Pretty sure before 4e you were supposed to roll damage individually per target.
I do think it makes more sense to do one roll. Not only does it save time, but why would the same explosion (or whatever) cause different amounts of damage to different targets? Unless they somehow cover themselves or dodge or something, but that's handled through half-damage on a successful save.
That’s why technically, RAW, for Magic Missile you roll once and apply the total to all darts. Nobody really plays it that way though. That’s why folks get so confused that the DDB sheet only ever lists 1d4+1 for damage no matter what, since they work so hard to adhere to RAW in all instances.
That’s why technically, RAW, for Magic Missile you roll once and apply the total to all darts. Nobody really plays it that way though. That’s why folks get so confused that the DDB sheet only ever lists 1d4+1 for damage no matter what, since they work so hard to adhere to RAW in all instances.
Surprised I never realized that. I will now immediately forget it.
I also find it strange that it's not mentioned in that section, and doesn't seem to be at all in the DMG.
I believe it was different in some of the older editions. In 4e I'm pretty sure that it still had a single damage roll, but the caster rolled attack rolls against each target rather than the targets saving. Pretty sure before 4e you were supposed to roll damage individually per target.
I do think it makes more sense to do one roll. Not only does it save time, but why would the same explosion (or whatever) cause different amounts of damage to different targets? Unless they somehow cover themselves or dodge or something, but that's handled through half-damage on a successful save.
Short answer: lots of reasons, yet none that actually matter.
If a bunch of creatures are taking damage from the same spell, at the same time, it's going to be better for the whole table to wrap that up as quickly as possible. The downside is that a player is going to feel really shitty about rolling min damage against a whole group. Oh well!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That’s why technically, RAW, for Magic Missile you roll once and apply the total to all darts. Nobody really plays it that way though. That’s why folks get so confused that the DDB sheet only ever lists 1d4+1 for damage no matter what, since they work so hard to adhere to RAW in all instances.
Yes and no. Magic Missile is a weird edge case where it's treated as an AoE spell, but has a maximum number of targets.. More than that, it's flexible enough to allow you to stack on an individual. As a spell, it simply doesn't follow either set of rules -- AoE targeting, or target... targeting.
It becomes its own thing and really shouldn't be compared to other spells, or used as an example for other spells.
That’s why technically, RAW, for Magic Missile you roll once and apply the total to all darts. Nobody really plays it that way though. That’s why folks get so confused that the DDB sheet only ever lists 1d4+1 for damage no matter what, since they work so hard to adhere to RAW in all instances.
Yes and no. Magic Missile is a weird edge case where it's treated as an AoE spell, but has a maximum number of targets.. More than that, it's flexible enough to allow you to stack on an individual. As a spell, it simply doesn't follow either set of rules -- AoE targeting, or target... targeting.
It becomes its own thing and really shouldn't be compared to other spells, or used as an example for other spells.
Nah, IamSposta is correct. RAW, that is how it works. You're not making individual attacks against multiple targets like with Scorching Ray or Eldritch Blast. Can't imagine anyone will ever actually play it that way, but it is what it is.
That’s why technically, RAW, for Magic Missile you roll once and apply the total to all darts. Nobody really plays it that way though. That’s why folks get so confused that the DDB sheet only ever lists 1d4+1 for damage no matter what, since they work so hard to adhere to RAW in all instances.
Yes and no. Magic Missile is a weird edge case where it's treated as an AoE spell, but has a maximum number of targets.. More than that, it's flexible enough to allow you to stack on an individual. As a spell, it simply doesn't follow either set of rules -- AoE targeting, or target... targeting.
It becomes its own thing and really shouldn't be compared to other spells, or used as an example for other spells.
Nah, IamSposta is correct. RAW, that is how it works. You're not making individual attacks against multiple targets like with Scorching Ray or Eldritch Blast. Can't imagine anyone will ever actually play it that way, but it is what it is.
I never said you were making individual attacks. I said it was not a true AoE spell, despite RAW treating it as one for the purposes of damage rolls. Using it as an example for AoE spells is going to cause a lot of problems and lead to misunderstandings, so it's better to not do that.
It's a unique spell. To my knowledge, no other spell works the way Magic Missile does.
It isn’t a matter of the damage rolled. A 3rd-level Spirit Guardians does 3d8 damage, a 4th-level Spirit Guardians does 4d8. It is a matter of the base damage as calculated by the spell level.
That still doesn't solve the problem if they are being cast at the same spell level.
A duration of "instantaneous" is still a duration.
I agree, but they just cannot overlap, so you will always take both... :p
Also, you don't actually know which Spiritual guardians that is the most potent since you roll for damage at seperate occassions.
No you don't, as with all spells, I believe that you roll it once and apply it throughout the duration.
And what happens if you first take damage from one spiritual guardian but then the next turn the other one rolls a higher damage roll? Do you then get hit points back? What if the second roll is higher, but you succeed on your saving throw and the halved damage is lower than the first one? Do you alternate between spiritual guardians each turn, depending on which one rolls the highest? Do you still make multiple saves? Nah, there's nothing in the rules that makes this a viable option.
In any case, you are only affected by the most potent one, not by the other, and you do your save against this one, not the other, so it's actually the easiest way to play it.
Since the spells aren't cast simultaneously you roll for damage at seperate occassions. Which means that you don't actually know which the most potent one is until after you rolled, even if you do go by the casting level.
And you didn't actually adress any of the points I made. How do you know which one you are affected by?
As a side note, can i just lighten the mood by pointing out that everyone is wrong since there is no such thing as "Spiritual guardians"? The spell is called "Spirit Guardians". ;)
If they are cast at the same level, both spells will do 3d8 damage, why do you want to roll twice ?
Read again. With your way of doing it, you need to roll before you can know which is the more potent one.
Either you roll only once at the start (which I've been doing although the community has apparently not been doing) and you know which one is the most potent, otherwise they are equally potent and you just roll 3d8.
You still need to roll for both guardians to know which one is the more potent one.
It works even if you have a good/neutral priest and an evil priest, you will take 3d8, but if holy/necrotic is not indifferent for you, you will take what is the most potent for you.
But what if I am resistant to radiant damage but that spell was cast at a higher level? Is that now the more potent spell even though it could theoretically cause less damage? Your way of doing things opens up a whole bunch of cans of worms which really isn't supported by the rules.
Since the spells aren't cast simultaneously you roll for damage at seperate occassions. Which means that you don't actually know which the most potent one is until after you rolled, even if you do go by the casting level.
First, my point of view is that no, you don't, not if you apply my solution. Otherwise, see below.
Yes you do, since the spells can be cast at different times but still have their durations overlap. Do you really not see this?
And you didn't actually adress any of the points I made. How do you know which one you are affected by?
You are affected by spirit guardians, whether you are standing in one, two, or eight. So you take the one which is at the highest level if there is one (and if there are multiple, they will do the same damage anyway), and you roll the damage for this one. And you roll your save. Where is the difficulty in this ?
Nothing difficult, just wrong. First of all, no, they won't necessarily do the same damage. A roll of three 1s is less potent than a roll of three 8s, right? And what if you are immune to one of the guardians, resistant to another and vulnerable to the third but the first one is cast at a higher level? Is that still "more potent"? What if the casters have different spell save DCs? Wouldn't a a higher DC mean that it is more potent? Again, you are adding needless extra levels of complexity that aren't supported in the rules.
And you still haven't adressed the issue of getting points back for being affected by a more potent spell.
You are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. If there are multilple instances of a spell, you are only affected by one, that is the basic rule. "the most potent effect — such as the highest bonus" clearly translates as the highest damage that the spell can deliver.
No, you're actually the one complicating this since you're adding the whol unnecessary "most potent" aspect of it. Like I said, immunities and resistances affect the potential highest damage. Also, using the highest damage when the spells are cast at the same level doesn't solve the problem. So now you have a new issue to deal with. Add in different spell saves and that's three extra factors that you have to deal with in your system, for each instance of the active spell.
Since you rolled damage at the start of the spell in any case (my take on the subject), you know which one would cause the most damage. So you just apply that one because it is inherently the most potent (and then take into account saving throws, resistances, vulnerabilities, etc.). End of story.
Again, besides the fact that you've pretty much just made up the part where the damage is the relevant factor, you don't actually know which one does the most damage until you roll. And with your way you still have to roll for each same level spell to figure out which one is the most potent.
And again, if you did not roll at start, do not overcomplicate it.
Rolling at the start or later doesn't matter in the way you present it. Since the frist spell rolled might not necessarily be the most potent spell actively.
You are only affected by the more potent effect, so by default it's the level, and if not, YOU ARE ONLY AFFECTED BY ONE EFFECT (you are not being affected by two and picking damage, you get ONE effect, and it's not "the one that affects you most", it's the one that is inherently most potent), so if they are equally potent, just roll the damage once at that level. And then, as usual, apply saving throws, resistances, vulnerabilities, etc.
The effect is the lowered movement speed. The damage is something seperate. Just like that you can take damage from multiple Vicious Mockeries but you only get the disdvantage from one of them. Also, no need to start capslocking. If you take things this seriously, maybe you should step away from it? You sound really upset. It's just a game.
Anywho, as per previously mentioned, you still don't know which of the same level spells that is the most potent until you have rolled for each spell. And then you still have to factor in the save DC.
Please stop making this theoreitical and asking disconnected questions, just take practical cases and stop the silliness about "getting points back".
Now you are avoiding the questions. This would be the consequences of doing it the way you described and it's intellectually dishonest of you to ignore it. If you don't have an answer, fine, but at least aknowledge the facts.
Look, if you're this upset then don't worry about it. You are free to play the game any way you like it. It's meant to be fun.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You roll once per trigger. You don't roll the first turn of a 1 minute duration spell and apply that the entire duration. Each turn you roll the associated dice for the effect, and that's what gets applied that turn.
In the case of Spirit Guardians, you'd roll the 3d8 each time it affects a target.
You do not roll 3d8 once when you cast the spell, record that number, and apply it each time the damage is triggered.
No, let's put a stop to that kind of magical thinking immediately. There is no general rule stating that damage for an ongoing spell is rolled once for the entirety of the spell's duration. That is just flat-out false for RAW mechanics. You roll for each creature affected, each time it is triggered, individually, unless the spell specifically states otherwise. I can't think of any that do behave that way, but I'm sure there's at least one.
Anyway, it seems the community is in overwhelming agreement here, and I'm not seeing any actual evidence to the contrary.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
To clarify that - in case there's any confusion - you roll damage whenever damage is triggered, but you just roll once. With Spirit Guardians the damage is triggered at the start of an affected creature's turn, so you roll damage for that creature at that time. When the next affected creature's turn comes up, you roll their damage, etc.
For a spell like Fireball that hits multiple creatures all at once, you roll damage once and every affected creature takes that damage (or half, if they save.) You don't roll different damage for each creature.
Right. Any spell that can hit multiple targets simultaneously gets rolled once for all damage, any spell that does not hit simultaneously does not. Even when hitting four different targets with four bolts from one casting of Eldritch Blast get rolled independently since they hit sequentially, not simultaneously.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
This is a very common table rule (I've used it in plenty of campaigns) to prevent bottlenecking the session while resolving many rolls, but it is in no way RAW. As far as I can tell, there is no reference (as a system rule) to ever making a singular damage roll for an entire group of AoE targets. RAW is a distinct roll for each affected creature, unless a spell specifically states otherwise. Fireball isn't one of those.
If you know for sure it's an actual rule (and not just a suggestion from the DMG), please link it, because that would be a big deal.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#DamageRolls
Edit: Can be found in the PHB, p196, Part 2- Chapter 9: Combat
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Under Damage rolls in "Combat" in chapter 9 of the PHB:
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
Edit: IamSposta beat me to it.
Cool, thanks! I find it really odd that they don't have any reference to that in the actual Spellcasting chapter, but it's clear as day now!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I also find it strange that it's not mentioned in that section, and doesn't seem to be at all in the DMG.
I believe it was different in some of the older editions. In 4e I'm pretty sure that it still had a single damage roll, but the caster rolled attack rolls against each target rather than the targets saving. Pretty sure before 4e you were supposed to roll damage individually per target.
I do think it makes more sense to do one roll. Not only does it save time, but why would the same explosion (or whatever) cause different amounts of damage to different targets? Unless they somehow cover themselves or dodge or something, but that's handled through half-damage on a successful save.
That’s why technically, RAW, for Magic Missile you roll once and apply the total to all darts. Nobody really plays it that way though. That’s why folks get so confused that the DDB sheet only ever lists 1d4+1 for damage no matter what, since they work so hard to adhere to RAW in all instances.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Surprised I never realized that. I will now immediately forget it.
Short answer: lots of reasons, yet none that actually matter.
If a bunch of creatures are taking damage from the same spell, at the same time, it's going to be better for the whole table to wrap that up as quickly as possible. The downside is that a player is going to feel really shitty about rolling min damage against a whole group. Oh well!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That’s why it’s a game, not a simulation.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Yes and no. Magic Missile is a weird edge case where it's treated as an AoE spell, but has a maximum number of targets.. More than that, it's flexible enough to allow you to stack on an individual. As a spell, it simply doesn't follow either set of rules -- AoE targeting, or target... targeting.
It becomes its own thing and really shouldn't be compared to other spells, or used as an example for other spells.
Nah, IamSposta is correct. RAW, that is how it works. You're not making individual attacks against multiple targets like with Scorching Ray or Eldritch Blast. Can't imagine anyone will ever actually play it that way, but it is what it is.
I never said you were making individual attacks. I said it was not a true AoE spell, despite RAW treating it as one for the purposes of damage rolls. Using it as an example for AoE spells is going to cause a lot of problems and lead to misunderstandings, so it's better to not do that.
It's a unique spell. To my knowledge, no other spell works the way Magic Missile does.
That still doesn't solve the problem if they are being cast at the same spell level.
Since the spells aren't cast simultaneously you roll for damage at seperate occassions. Which means that you don't actually know which the most potent one is until after you rolled, even if you do go by the casting level.
And you didn't actually adress any of the points I made. How do you know which one you are affected by?
As a side note, can i just lighten the mood by pointing out that everyone is wrong since there is no such thing as "Spiritual guardians"? The spell is called "Spirit Guardians". ;)
Read again. With your way of doing it, you need to roll before you can know which is the more potent one.
You still need to roll for both guardians to know which one is the more potent one.
But what if I am resistant to radiant damage but that spell was cast at a higher level? Is that now the more potent spell even though it could theoretically cause less damage? Your way of doing things opens up a whole bunch of cans of worms which really isn't supported by the rules.
Yes you do, since the spells can be cast at different times but still have their durations overlap. Do you really not see this?
Nothing difficult, just wrong. First of all, no, they won't necessarily do the same damage. A roll of three 1s is less potent than a roll of three 8s, right? And what if you are immune to one of the guardians, resistant to another and vulnerable to the third but the first one is cast at a higher level? Is that still "more potent"? What if the casters have different spell save DCs? Wouldn't a a higher DC mean that it is more potent? Again, you are adding needless extra levels of complexity that aren't supported in the rules.
And you still haven't adressed the issue of getting points back for being affected by a more potent spell.
No, you're actually the one complicating this since you're adding the whol unnecessary "most potent" aspect of it. Like I said, immunities and resistances affect the potential highest damage. Also, using the highest damage when the spells are cast at the same level doesn't solve the problem. So now you have a new issue to deal with. Add in different spell saves and that's three extra factors that you have to deal with in your system, for each instance of the active spell.
Again, besides the fact that you've pretty much just made up the part where the damage is the relevant factor, you don't actually know which one does the most damage until you roll. And with your way you still have to roll for each same level spell to figure out which one is the most potent.
Rolling at the start or later doesn't matter in the way you present it. Since the frist spell rolled might not necessarily be the most potent spell actively.
The effect is the lowered movement speed. The damage is something seperate. Just like that you can take damage from multiple Vicious Mockeries but you only get the disdvantage from one of them. Also, no need to start capslocking. If you take things this seriously, maybe you should step away from it? You sound really upset. It's just a game.
Anywho, as per previously mentioned, you still don't know which of the same level spells that is the most potent until you have rolled for each spell. And then you still have to factor in the save DC.
Now you are avoiding the questions. This would be the consequences of doing it the way you described and it's intellectually dishonest of you to ignore it. If you don't have an answer, fine, but at least aknowledge the facts.
Look, if you're this upset then don't worry about it. You are free to play the game any way you like it. It's meant to be fun.