Whatever. You do it your way and I’ll do it my way and it will only ever matter if you come to PA and join a game I DM.
And then, if you insist on it being your way you will find your PC surrounded by 12 priests all casting spirit guardians and when you’re begging me to make it stop because you’re taking 36d8 damage every turn I’ll just keep quoting your arguments as to why it won’t. 😁
Hypothetical Scenario: Creature starts in Spirit Guardians AoE #1, then during their turn crosses into Spirit Guardians AoE #2 while still remaining inside of AoE #1. would they then make the save and take the damage from each that turn? If so, then how is that different from starting your turn in both in a 'realistic' perspective? If not, why? That's a logical gap I keep running into while trying to reconcile the "Combining Spell Effects" rule in this case; as the rule (to me) seemingly allows for two damage opportunities in one case but not in another.
Exactly. You're running into a logical gap because that's not how the rule works! The only thing that is considered an "effect" is the speed reduction! There's no difference between starting a turn affected by one AoE then walking into an overlap with the second AoE, starting a turn in an overlapped area, or walking into an overlap (from outside both) on a turn.
You make a saving throw against the damage, for each individual spell, at the moment when the spell calls for a saving throw to be rolled.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Whatever. You do it your way and I’ll do it my way and it will only ever matter if you come to PA and join a game I DM.
And then, if you insist on it being your way you will find your PC surrounded by 12 priests all casting spirit guardians and when you’re begging me to make it stop because you’re taking 36d8 damage every turn I’ll just keep quoting your arguments as to why it won’t. 😁
Yeah, I have no problem with that, because that's how it works. You'd just be an ******* DM. :P
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Whatever. You do it your way and I’ll do it my way and it will only ever matter if you come to PA and join a game I DM.
And then, if you insist on it being your way you will find your PC surrounded by 12 priests all casting spirit guardians and when you’re begging me to make it stop because you’re taking 36d8 damage every turn I’ll just keep quoting your arguments as to why it won’t. 😁
Yeah, I have no problem with that, because that's how it works. You'd just be an ******* DM. :P
Irrelevant. If you surround a player with a dozen enemies and beat them to death in an impossible to escape situation, that's bad DMing. Doing it because a player disagrees with you is even worse.
I presume you wouldn't actually do that - your point was just hypothetical - but still.
Irrelevant. If you surround a player with a dozen enemies and beat them to death in an impossible to escape situation, that's bad DMing. Doing it because a player disagrees with you is even worse.
I presume you wouldn't actually do that - your point was just hypothetical - but still.
Correct, my point was that if it works that way for players, then it works that way for everyone. And since it shouldn’t work that way for NPCs, then it shouldn’t work that way for PCs either.
Well, that I don't agree with. If you look at my post #60, you will see that I do concede that this appears to be the RAW, but I simply can't believe it's the RAI. Both players and NPCs should be able to do this.
Surrounding a single player with 12 priests all casting Spirit Guardians to shred them to death is just mean, but pitting a party against 2 or 3 of them all casting it could make for a very interesting encounter.
Well, that I don't agree with. If you look at my post #60, you will see that I do concede that this appears to be the RAW, but I simply can't believe it's the RAI. Both players and NPCs should be able to do this.
Surrounding a single player with 12 priests all casting Spirit Guardians to shred them to death is just mean, but pitting a party against 2 or 3 of them all casting it could make for a very interesting encounter.
Depends on party size, level, and composition. Plus, don’t forget that those priests will most likely be backed up by several acolytes, cultists and fanatics. Even 3 priests with a wall of meatshields between them and the party would be dishing out 9d8 damage/turn to every PC. That’s on top of all of the hold person and spiritual weapon spells they would be slinging. There is no way that should ever have been RAI.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m normally all in favor of short bloody combats. The more everyone gets their assess kicked, the more badassed they feel when they win. But stacking damage from multiple castings of what is already an OP spell is just too much.
If the priests have a horde of adds between them and the players, they're not within the 15 feet for Spirit Guardians to be affecting the players.
And I didn't say anything about having a bunch of adds with them. I straight up said "2-3 priests casting the spell" could make an interesting encounter. Force the players to think of their positioning, rely more on ranged, focusing their attacks on one enemy at a time to bring them down - and lower the total possible ongoing damage - faster.
Obviously if you add a bunch of enemies, it could get unfair. If you add in Tiamat it would also get unfair. These aren't relevant arguments; anything can work with some planning, and anything can be broken.
If the priests have a horde of adds between them and the players, they're not within the 15 feet for Spirit Guardians to be affecting the players.
And I didn't say anything about having a bunch of adds with them. I straight up said "2-3 priests casting the spell" could make an interesting encounter. Force the players to think of their positioning, rely more on ranged, focusing their attacks on one enemy at a time to bring them down - and lower the total possible ongoing damage - faster.
Obviously if you add a bunch of enemies, it could get unfair. If you add in Tiamat it would also get unfair. These aren't relevant arguments; anything can work with some planning, and anything can be broken.
3 CR 2 monsters against a party of 6 PCs will go down on two rounds tops. If there aren’t any adds, then there isn’t really any fight. And I specifically didn’t list anything with a CR above 2. And a line of cultists shoulder to shoulder can keep the priests within 10 feet of the PCs, and still out of melee against anything without reach.
3 CR 2 monsters against a party of 6 PCs will go down on two rounds tops. If there aren’t any adds, then there isn’t really any fight. And I specifically didn’t list anything with a CR above 2.
You're still making assumptions. I didn't say anything about there being 6 PCs, the average party size is 4. If there's 6, make it 4 or 5 priests. These are obviously supposed to be glass cannons, that doesn't mean the encounter couldn't be fun. It's a race, take down these squishy things before they surround you with their ongoing-death-zone. And don't forget concentration can be broken. Also, the average combat duration is 2-3 rounds, so going down in 2 isn't exactly uncommon. (My combat encounters tend to last at least 5 rounds, but I have heard many times that 2-3 is the average.)
Clearly it would take some planning - as virtually all encounters do - but it could be a lot of fun. If you stick everyone in a 25'x25' room with this scenario, it's going to be dumb and ridiculous, but... don't do that. There's plenty of ways this could be fun, and if the priests cast Spiritual Weapon on top of it, that can be even more fun. (Hold Person is also concentration, so irrelevant.)
You enter the front door of the church, and see the 3 evil priests standing on the altar. As you approach down the aisle, sliding your weapons from their sheaths, dozens of spiritual warriors suddenly coalesce around the enemy. At almost the same time, a floating translucent sword appears above each priest, and they fly towards you point first.
This just sounds like good times to me.
I think that denying damage - to both players and NPCs - is nonsense, RAW or not. To each their own, of course, but I'll never do it.
Yeah, no personal attacks are being made here, and I see no issues with a legion of SGs other than it just being an uninspired encounter. :P There are plenty of ways to overcome that type of encounter like... oops, Antimagic Field, or even Wall of Force. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It works the same for PCs as it does for NPCs, and there's no problem with that.
[edit] Plus it's a concentration spell anyway, sooo all it takes is something like a classic Fireball (from any ally, not necessarily myself) to force a Concentration check with a DC equal to half the damage taken... which is probably a lot, for each concentrating caster that is hit. It is very possible to stop all those NPCs in their tracks before anyone even takes damage from their guardians, which is also true for the opposite side of the table.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How do you balance encounters then when two PCs casting this spell standing next to each other can pump out a near equivalent of better than a fireball every round and still do other stuff too?
8d6 damage is roughly equivalent to 6d8. Spirit Guardians my have a smaller AoE, but better damage types and a slow feature on top of it, and two Spirit Guardians means two saving throws which means more damage on average because of the increased opportunities to fail at least one of them. Enemy adds stand no chance against something like that. How the heck would one even go about balancing those encounters? Do you just stop using grunts as part of your encounters? Or are you just spoon feeding them XP, because that wouldn’t even be “farming” anymore.
Right here, full stop. You balance them the same way you balance anything in an individual game that you're running... experience, intuition, and creativity. Look at my previous post (you might not have seen the edit while you were typing).
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Right here, full stop. You balance them the same way you balance anything in an individual game that you're running... experience, intuition, and creativity. Look at my previous post (you might not have seen the edit while you were typing).
Right, and my intuition after almost 30 years of D&D is to not let those stack.
Shoot at 'em and break their concentration. Cast dispel magic on them. Goodbye, 3rd level spell slot. Hell, cast the aforementioned Hold Person on them and then just stay farther than 15' away. Balancing encounters isn't all that difficult; the game is designed for it.
Personally I use the milestone system, so if I do need to feed them a bunch of grunts until one can end their concentration, that's fine too, and the players will enjoy it. What players don't enjoy is being denied their damage. But there's much better ways. There's always ways.
Shoot at 'em and break their concentration. Cast dispel magic on them. Goodbye, 3rd level spell slot. Hell, cast the aforementioned Hold Person on them and then just stay farther than 15' away. Balancing encounters isn't all that difficult; the game is designed for it.
Personally I use the milestone system, so if I do need to feed them a bunch of grunts until one can end their concentration, that's fine too, and the players will enjoy it. What players don't enjoy is being denied their damage. But there's much better ways. There's always ways.
But when the DM points at RAW and says: “You can do that, but just so you are aware the effects won’t stack.” They don’t feel “denied damage” to hey say “Thanks for the heads-up” and do something different.
Whatever. You do it your way and I’ll do it my way and it will only ever matter if you come to PA and join a game I DM.
And then, if you insist on it being your way you will find your PC surrounded by 12 priests all casting spirit guardians and when you’re begging me to make it stop because you’re taking 36d8 damage every turn I’ll just keep quoting your arguments as to why it won’t. 😁
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Exactly. You're running into a logical gap because that's not how the rule works! The only thing that is considered an "effect" is the speed reduction! There's no difference between starting a turn affected by one AoE then walking into an overlap with the second AoE, starting a turn in an overlapped area, or walking into an overlap (from outside both) on a turn.
You make a saving throw against the damage, for each individual spell, at the moment when the spell calls for a saving throw to be rolled.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, I have no problem with that, because that's how it works. You'd just be an ******* DM. :P
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Now now... no personal attacks....
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That's not really a personal attack, he's saying if you did that to a player, you'd be a jerk. Which is true.
I suppose it is true since RAW it isn’t supposed to work that way at all.
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Irrelevant. If you surround a player with a dozen enemies and beat them to death in an impossible to escape situation, that's bad DMing. Doing it because a player disagrees with you is even worse.
I presume you wouldn't actually do that - your point was just hypothetical - but still.
Correct, my point was that if it works that way for players, then it works that way for everyone. And since it shouldn’t work that way for NPCs, then it shouldn’t work that way for PCs either.
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Well, that I don't agree with. If you look at my post #60, you will see that I do concede that this appears to be the RAW, but I simply can't believe it's the RAI. Both players and NPCs should be able to do this.
Surrounding a single player with 12 priests all casting Spirit Guardians to shred them to death is just mean, but pitting a party against 2 or 3 of them all casting it could make for a very interesting encounter.
Depends on party size, level, and composition. Plus, don’t forget that those priests will most likely be backed up by several acolytes, cultists and fanatics. Even 3 priests with a wall of meatshields between them and the party would be dishing out 9d8 damage/turn to every PC. That’s on top of all of the hold person and spiritual weapon spells they would be slinging. There is no way that should ever have been RAI.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m normally all in favor of short bloody combats. The more everyone gets their assess kicked, the more badassed they feel when they win. But stacking damage from multiple castings of what is already an OP spell is just too much.
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If the priests have a horde of adds between them and the players, they're not within the 15 feet for Spirit Guardians to be affecting the players.
And I didn't say anything about having a bunch of adds with them. I straight up said "2-3 priests casting the spell" could make an interesting encounter. Force the players to think of their positioning, rely more on ranged, focusing their attacks on one enemy at a time to bring them down - and lower the total possible ongoing damage - faster.
Obviously if you add a bunch of enemies, it could get unfair. If you add in Tiamat it would also get unfair. These aren't relevant arguments; anything can work with some planning, and anything can be broken.
3 CR 2 monsters against a party of 6 PCs will go down on two rounds tops. If there aren’t any adds, then there isn’t really any fight. And I specifically didn’t list anything with a CR above 2. And a line of cultists shoulder to shoulder can keep the priests within 10 feet of the PCs, and still out of melee against anything without reach.
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No more of a jerk than a player insisting that the DM run the game a certain way.
You're still making assumptions. I didn't say anything about there being 6 PCs, the average party size is 4. If there's 6, make it 4 or 5 priests. These are obviously supposed to be glass cannons, that doesn't mean the encounter couldn't be fun. It's a race, take down these squishy things before they surround you with their ongoing-death-zone. And don't forget concentration can be broken. Also, the average combat duration is 2-3 rounds, so going down in 2 isn't exactly uncommon. (My combat encounters tend to last at least 5 rounds, but I have heard many times that 2-3 is the average.)
Clearly it would take some planning - as virtually all encounters do - but it could be a lot of fun. If you stick everyone in a 25'x25' room with this scenario, it's going to be dumb and ridiculous, but... don't do that. There's plenty of ways this could be fun, and if the priests cast Spiritual Weapon on top of it, that can be even more fun. (Hold Person is also concentration, so irrelevant.)
You enter the front door of the church, and see the 3 evil priests standing on the altar. As you approach down the aisle, sliding your weapons from their sheaths, dozens of spiritual warriors suddenly coalesce around the enemy. At almost the same time, a floating translucent sword appears above each priest, and they fly towards you point first.
This just sounds like good times to me.
I think that denying damage - to both players and NPCs - is nonsense, RAW or not. To each their own, of course, but I'll never do it.
Yeah, no personal attacks are being made here, and I see no issues with a legion of SGs other than it just being an uninspired encounter. :P There are plenty of ways to overcome that type of encounter like... oops, Antimagic Field, or even Wall of Force. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It works the same for PCs as it does for NPCs, and there's no problem with that.
[edit] Plus it's a concentration spell anyway, sooo all it takes is something like a classic Fireball (from any ally, not necessarily myself) to force a Concentration check with a DC equal to half the damage taken... which is probably a lot, for each concentrating caster that is hit. It is very possible to stop all those NPCs in their tracks before anyone even takes damage from their guardians, which is also true for the opposite side of the table.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How do you balance encounters then when two PCs casting this spell standing next to each other can pump out
a near equivalent ofbetter than a fireball every round and still do other stuff too?8d6 damage is roughly equivalent to 6d8. Spirit Guardians my have a smaller AoE, but better damage types and a slow feature on top of it, and two Spirit Guardians means two saving throws which means more damage on average because of the increased opportunities to fail at least one of them. Enemy adds stand no chance against something like that. How the heck would one even go about balancing those encounters? Do you just stop using grunts as part of your encounters? Or are you just spoon feeding them XP, because that wouldn’t even be “farming” anymore.
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Right here, full stop. You balance them the same way you balance anything in an individual game that you're running... experience, intuition, and creativity. Look at my previous post (you might not have seen the edit while you were typing).
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Right, and my intuition after almost 30 years of D&D is to not let those stack.
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Shoot at 'em and break their concentration. Cast dispel magic on them. Goodbye, 3rd level spell slot. Hell, cast the aforementioned Hold Person on them and then just stay farther than 15' away. Balancing encounters isn't all that difficult; the game is designed for it.
Personally I use the milestone system, so if I do need to feed them a bunch of grunts until one can end their concentration, that's fine too, and the players will enjoy it. What players don't enjoy is being denied their damage. But there's much better ways. There's always ways.
But when the DM points at RAW and says: “You can do that, but just so you are aware the effects won’t stack.” They don’t feel “denied damage” to hey say “Thanks for the heads-up” and do something different.
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