To use counterspell you must be aware of a spell being cast. However, Xanathar's Guide to Everything tells us that if a spell has no components it is imperceptible to all observers: If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible.
And that Jeremy Crawford has confirmed the same ruling for the case in which Subtle Spell is used to remove all components from a spell:
Subtle Spell is meant to protect a spell w/o material components from counterspell, since you can't see the casting.
So, what about psionics? From what I understand, the basic rules say,
A monster that casts spells using only the power of its mind has the psionics tag added to its Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting special trait. This tag carries no special rules of its own, but other parts of the game might refer to it. A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells.
So, if it doesn't require components wouldn't that mean counter spell would not work on it because of what it says in Xanathar's guide to everything (that if a spell has no components it is imperceptible to all observers...)?
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
If it doesn’t require components, the casting is imperceptible and can’t be countered.
This was my thinking, but I heard someone arguing the following on another forum:
A monster that casts spells using only the power of its mind has the psionics tag added to its Spellcasting or Innate Spellcasting special trait. This tag carries no special rules of its own, but other parts of the game might refer to it. A monster that has this tag typically doesn't require any components to cast its spells.
So, if there is a monster that has Innate Spellcasting(Psionics) and uses it to cast a spell that does have components, it can be counterspelled because spells cast in this manner are just normal spells with no special rules and spells, in general, can be counterspelled (This was their response to the above).
Maybe they meant to say "can not be"?
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
I don’t think they meant to say “cannot be,” I think they’re just wrong. Their position is predicated on the claim that they’re “normal spells with no special rules,” but this isn’t true. There are special rules: psionic spells don’t require components.
Now, the entire reason they’re uncounterable is that the casting can’t be perceived, not because there’s anything inherent to the “psionic” nature of anything. If you were somehow able to perceive the casting despite the lack of components (for example, if you had an active telepathic link and were immediately aware of any intention regardless of outward appearance), you could counter it. You just can’t react to something you don’t know about.
A further note, because this forum is no stranger to rules text pedantry (and neither am I): technically, the trigger for counterspell is visual: you must see someone cast a spell. A strict reading of this would lead to the conclusion that purely verbal spells are uncounterable, since the casting thereof is heard and not seen. I don’t know that anyone would argue for that stance though, and it’s safe to take “see” as “perceive in some way.” Reading this strictly doesn’t make psionic spells counterable under normal circumstances, but it does prevent those alternative circumstances (e.g. mind-reading) that I mentioned from allowing them to be countered.
Basically, Psionics/subtle spell is situationally very powerful, and the designers try to compensate for that by limiting it in one way or another. There are lots of reasons that we don't have an official Psion class yet, and this is probably one of them.
You can't use counterspell on psionics because psionics aren't magic.
Sadly, that will not be true in this edition. Not only will Psionics be Magic, they will specifically be Spells. 😓
I still have a sliver of hope that this won't universally be the case. We can make a fair guess that Dark Sun will be one of those 3 classic settings getting a book in the next year, and if that does happen then we are absolutely going to get a real, complete Psionics class. Just because the Psionic Soul Sorcerer uses Spellcasting doesn't necessarily mean that a Psion will too.
You can't use counterspell on psionics because psionics aren't magic.
Sadly, that will not be true in this edition. Not only will Psionics be Magic, they will specifically be Spells. 😓
I still have a sliver of hope that this won't universally be the case. We can make a fair guess that Dark Sun will be one of those 3 classic settings getting a book in the next year, and if that does happen then we are absolutely going to get a real, complete Psionics class. Just because the Psionic Soul Sorcerer uses Spellcasting doesn't necessarily mean that a Psion will too.
Jeremy Crawford has confirmed that Psionics will be another form of Spellcasting in 5e. There will be new “Psionic Spells” in Tasha’s. We will (most likely) not get a new class either, Psionics will be handled with Subclasses this edition.
You can't use counterspell on psionics because psionics aren't magic.
Sadly, that will not be true in this edition. Not only will Psionics be Magic, they will specifically be Spells. 😓
I still have a sliver of hope that this won't universally be the case. We can make a fair guess that Dark Sun will be one of those 3 classic settings getting a book in the next year, and if that does happen then we are absolutely going to get a real, complete Psionics class. Just because the Psionic Soul Sorcerer uses Spellcasting doesn't necessarily mean that a Psion will too.
Jeremy Crawford has confirmed that Psionics will be another form of Spellcasting in 5e. There will be new “Psionic Spells” in Tasha’s. We will (most likely) not get a new class either, Psionics will be handled with Subclasses this edition.
That's kinda lame considering a lot of the psionic stuff is already spells.
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The feedback from the UA surveys was that the majority of players did not want a new class, did not want a new mechanic, and felt that making Psionics its own thing was pointless since there were already spells that did Psionic things such as Telekinesis, and Telepathy.
There were apparently a “very vocal minority” of us that filled out the surveys felt otherwise, but “the majority” will buy more books so they are catering to them.
If one filled out the surveys, one is counted among the “very vocal minority” like me. If one did not fill out the UA surveys, then one’s vote was not cast in the matter, and therefore not counted.
If you care, fill out the UA surveys because that’s all WotC goes by for the bulk of these decisions.
If you care, fill out the UA surveys because that’s all WotC goes by for the bulk of these decisions.
If only DnD:B had a site banner with a link to them, so they were easy to find. Then I wouldn't have to read comments from a bunch of people talking about how the survey is already closed before I even know there is a survey...
If you care, fill out the UA surveys because that’s all WotC goes by for the bulk of these decisions.
If only DnD:B had a site banner with a link to them, so they were easy to find. Then I wouldn't have to read comments from a bunch of people talking about how the survey is already closed before I even know there is a survey...
Or you could, ya know, check the Unearthed Arcana section of the WotC website, like everyone else?
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If psionics are to mechanically work as spells, they could make a psionic school of magic so the psionic spells are at least it's own specialization. It wouldn't solve the problem that psionics really shouldn't be spells in the first place but I feel its better then nothing. Then you could determine how things like counter spell, subtle magic and other aspects of casting apply to the over all school.
Sorry, just a thought.
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So, I have read that,
And that Jeremy Crawford has confirmed the same ruling for the case in which Subtle Spell is used to remove all components from a spell:
So, what about psionics? From what I understand, the basic rules say,
So, if it doesn't require components wouldn't that mean counter spell would not work on it because of what it says in Xanathar's guide to everything (that if a spell has no components it is imperceptible to all observers...)?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
If it doesn’t require components, the casting is imperceptible and can’t be countered.
This was my thinking, but I heard someone arguing the following on another forum:
Maybe they meant to say "can not be"?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
I don’t think they meant to say “cannot be,” I think they’re just wrong. Their position is predicated on the claim that they’re “normal spells with no special rules,” but this isn’t true. There are special rules: psionic spells don’t require components.
Now, the entire reason they’re uncounterable is that the casting can’t be perceived, not because there’s anything inherent to the “psionic” nature of anything. If you were somehow able to perceive the casting despite the lack of components (for example, if you had an active telepathic link and were immediately aware of any intention regardless of outward appearance), you could counter it. You just can’t react to something you don’t know about.
A further note, because this forum is no stranger to rules text pedantry (and neither am I): technically, the trigger for counterspell is visual: you must see someone cast a spell. A strict reading of this would lead to the conclusion that purely verbal spells are uncounterable, since the casting thereof is heard and not seen. I don’t know that anyone would argue for that stance though, and it’s safe to take “see” as “perceive in some way.” Reading this strictly doesn’t make psionic spells counterable under normal circumstances, but it does prevent those alternative circumstances (e.g. mind-reading) that I mentioned from allowing them to be countered.
Theoretically, the Observant feat could potentially counteract that caveat.
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Wouldn’t that only work if there was a verbal component though?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
[SageAdvice]
Basically, Psionics/subtle spell is situationally very powerful, and the designers try to compensate for that by limiting it in one way or another. There are lots of reasons that we don't have an official Psion class yet, and this is probably one of them.
Yeah, Sposta was replying to my point about purely verbal spells being uncounterable because of the specificity of “see.”
You can't use counterspell on psionics because psionics aren't magic.
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"real life is a super high CR."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
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That may be true some day 😄
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A very good house rule, but not relevant to this forum, sadly.
True, but we don't have any true psionic abilities in 5e. We have magic that is psionic, but not actual psionics.
Sadly, that will not be true in this edition. Not only will Psionics be Magic, they will specifically be Spells. 😓
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I still have a sliver of hope that this won't universally be the case. We can make a fair guess that Dark Sun will be one of those 3 classic settings getting a book in the next year, and if that does happen then we are absolutely going to get a real, complete Psionics class. Just because the Psionic Soul Sorcerer uses Spellcasting doesn't necessarily mean that a Psion will too.
Jeremy Crawford has confirmed that Psionics will be another form of Spellcasting in 5e. There will be new “Psionic Spells” in Tasha’s. We will (most likely) not get a new class either, Psionics will be handled with Subclasses this edition.
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That's kinda lame considering a lot of the psionic stuff is already spells.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The feedback from the UA surveys was that the majority of players did not want a new class, did not want a new mechanic, and felt that making Psionics its own thing was pointless since there were already spells that did Psionic things such as Telekinesis, and Telepathy.
There were apparently a “very vocal minority” of us that filled out the surveys felt otherwise, but “the majority” will buy more books so they are catering to them.
If one filled out the surveys, one is counted among the “very vocal minority” like me. If one did not fill out the UA surveys, then one’s vote was not cast in the matter, and therefore not counted.
If you care, fill out the UA surveys because that’s all WotC goes by for the bulk of these decisions.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If only DnD:B had a site banner with a link to them, so they were easy to find. Then I wouldn't have to read comments from a bunch of people talking about how the survey is already closed before I even know there is a survey...
Or you could, ya know, check the Unearthed Arcana section of the WotC website, like everyone else?
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
If psionics are to mechanically work as spells, they could make a psionic school of magic so the psionic spells are at least it's own specialization. It wouldn't solve the problem that psionics really shouldn't be spells in the first place but I feel its better then nothing. Then you could determine how things like counter spell, subtle magic and other aspects of casting apply to the over all school.
Sorry, just a thought.
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