Having perception tied to the Wisdom stat gives me some grief from a role-playing perspective. It seems to me that the classes that rely heavily on perception (rogues and barbarians) are also those that would be least likely to be "wise" characters. Barbarians and rogues would tend to be more impulsive and less prone to making well thought-out decisions.
So, from a role-playing perspective, I would tend to want Wisdom to be the "dump stat" for barbarians and rogues. However, from a mechanics perspective, you want both to have a fairly good Wisdom score.
Wisdom seems to do more heavy-lifting than the other stats, encompassing willpower, perceptiveness, and "wisdom." Ideally, I'd like to divorce perception from Wisdom, but I don't know that any other stat makes any more sense. I guess Intelligence would be closest.
Anyway, that's all a little ramble-y, but I was just curious if anyone else had any thoughts on the issue.
Perception isn't necessarily tied to the Wisdom stat 100%.
There's a commonly used variant rule that allows the DM to nominate a more appropriate stat for the circumstance.
Remember though that Intelligence already has Investigation for pre-meditated searching.
Also, note from the section on Ability Scores that the Ability Scores in D&D don't necessarily match the dictionary definition of the words used. The Perception skill is very much a core part of the Wisdom stat.
Strength, measuring physical power Dexterity, measuring agility Constitution, measuring endurance Intelligence, measuring reasoning and memory Wisdom, measuring perception and insight Charisma, measuring force of personality
I would argue that Wisdom is actually really important for Rogues. They don't use the word "street-intelligent" to describe someone who has accumulated a lifetime of anecdotes and solutions to small puzzling problems. They call them "street-wise". There is a difference between being smart enough to know how to do something and having the wisdom to know just when to make your move.
Also Wisdom makes tends to encompass a sort of "common sense" knowledge that fits the Barbarian trope rather well.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
As for Wisdom being a "dump stat" for Barbarians, that's ok if they're just going to be a character that took the Conan back-story of being a slave trained in combat.
If they had a more regular upbringing in a barbarian tribe though - take a look at the 5 skills associated with Wisdom:
Animal Handling Insight Medicine Perception Survival
For me, 3 of those 5 shout Barbarian at me (Animal Handling, Perception & Survival)!
The game does not set DCs so high as to prevent a not-overly wise character from being good enough at perception to hit most of the checks that matter. That's especially true in the case of a rogue, who can use their expertise class feature to be exceptionally good at perception without much wisdom at all.
Of course, the effect of playing in a game with a DM that still thinks in older-edition terms is that DCs will seem to high to regularly pass - since those DMs are likely to think "It's not too hard of a check, so you need a 15" when the 5th-edition suggestions would actually set the DC around 10 or 12 instead. But luckily there is nothing wrong with helping a DM with such thought processes notice they don't really line up, and all it really takes is a comparison of what natural roll a character would need in the system they are thinking in the terms of to what the modern edition character would need (i.e. a 3.5 character would likely be adding their level plus 3 from skill ranks alone to a skill they are invested in, so hitting a DC of 15 requires a natural roll of 11 without any relevant ability modifier at 1st level. Since a 5th edition character would only have their proficiency bonus of +2 to add at first level if we similarly ignore ability modifiers, to match up the needing of a natural roll of 11 would mean the DC would be 13, rather than 15 - and then, realizing that coin-toss odds to succeed at something your character is meant to actually be good at, the DM would hopefully shave another couple of points from the DC to put the odds actually in favor of a proficient character seeming proficient by way of succeeding at a relevant check).
Stormknight - that's my point - most Barbarians are going to be rash berserker types - not a character type I associate with Wisdom. Yet, as you point out, 60% of the Wisdom skills shout Barbarian. This disconnect is what's giving me heartburn.
However, I take your point that D&D "Wisdom" doesn't necessarily match the dictionary definition of wisdom.
I've had a dm tie perception checks to a constitution score... your building is on fire, can you see through the billowing smoke, or are your eyes watering? Are your senses keen enough to hear a twig snap 45 feet to your southeast? Things like that... you won't see any of that in AL, but I'm also of the opinion that there's a reason the game is pencil-and-paper, and not carved in stone. Hope this was helpful. (:
In my opinion it depends on how you think the various stats work.
For example, being "wise" doesn't mean always making the best choice ... it means that your character has acquired a set of life experiences upon which he bases his actions and perhaps a certain level of sense capability that is inherent to the character that is better represented as "wisdom" than another stat.
A "wise" (say 14) wizard with the research background is not the same as a "wise" (say also 14) barbarian with the Outlander background. The 14 score and related proficiencies imply quite different forms of wisdom even if they have a similar level for basic perception. It doesn't mean that what they perceive in a situation is the same.
In addition, both the barbarian and rogue classes have features (barbarian danger sense, feral instinct, rogue expertise, uncanny dodge, evasion) that tend to mitigate to some extent a possibly lower wisdom score by providing extra defenses.
Finally, neither rogues nor barbarians are very likely to increase their wisdom stat and as a result skill proficiency in perception is far more important since the proficiency bonus scales with level. A rogue with expertise in perception and a 10 wis gets a +4 at first level which then scales to a +6 at 5th level and +8 at 9th. Even adding a +1 or +2 from the stat bonus, the expertise bonus remains far more significant. Even without expertise, a regular character with proficiency will have a +4 by 9th level even with a 10 stat in wis. The effect of the stat is really most noticeable only in tier 1 (levels 1 to 4).
However, the other reason to not completely dump wis is because dex, con and wis are the three most likely saves to be encountered as the character progresses. Dumping wisdom then tends to be not such a great idea at times as a result.
All that said, wood elves or variant humans with a 16 in dex and a 16 in wisdom are quite doable and make very good rogues if you are looking for one that can be both perceptive/aware and combat effective. On top of that, there are some other decent builds ... I have a variant human arcane trickster rogue with 8 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 12 wis, 10 cha with expertise in perception and investigation that has +5 perception and +6 investigation which is pretty decent for 3rd level.
Stormknight - that's my point - most Barbarians are going to be rash berserker types - not a character type I associate with Wisdom. Yet, as you point out, 60% of the Wisdom skills shout Barbarian. This disconnect is what's giving me heartburn.
It's only a problem if you insist on pigeonholing the class. The berserker is just a trope. Nothing about it forces you to play an idiot or a brute. Harnessing rage in combat doesn't mean they're angry or aggressive all the time.
A barbarian can be a stoic warrior, a wise chieftain, a gentle soul with an affinity for nature, or the latest in a long line of guardians for their tribe. A barbarian can be someone with a traumatic past on a journey to master their inner turmoil. A barbarian's rage can be literal, but it can also be the manifestation of nature's power, a war god's fury, or the wrath of their ancestors. A barbarian can be someone with a traumatic past on a journey to master their inner turmoil.
All of the other paths besides the Path of the Berserker leave the door open to playing interesting characters. Most if not all classes have at least one subclass that deliberately goes against the tropes the class established.
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Having perception tied to the Wisdom stat gives me some grief from a role-playing perspective. It seems to me that the classes that rely heavily on perception (rogues and barbarians) are also those that would be least likely to be "wise" characters. Barbarians and rogues would tend to be more impulsive and less prone to making well thought-out decisions.
So, from a role-playing perspective, I would tend to want Wisdom to be the "dump stat" for barbarians and rogues. However, from a mechanics perspective, you want both to have a fairly good Wisdom score.
Wisdom seems to do more heavy-lifting than the other stats, encompassing willpower, perceptiveness, and "wisdom." Ideally, I'd like to divorce perception from Wisdom, but I don't know that any other stat makes any more sense. I guess Intelligence would be closest.
Anyway, that's all a little ramble-y, but I was just curious if anyone else had any thoughts on the issue.
Perception isn't necessarily tied to the Wisdom stat 100%.
There's a commonly used variant rule that allows the DM to nominate a more appropriate stat for the circumstance.
Remember though that Intelligence already has Investigation for pre-meditated searching.
Also, note from the section on Ability Scores that the Ability Scores in D&D don't necessarily match the dictionary definition of the words used. The Perception skill is very much a core part of the Wisdom stat.
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I would argue that Wisdom is actually really important for Rogues. They don't use the word "street-intelligent" to describe someone who has accumulated a lifetime of anecdotes and solutions to small puzzling problems. They call them "street-wise". There is a difference between being smart enough to know how to do something and having the wisdom to know just when to make your move.
Also Wisdom makes tends to encompass a sort of "common sense" knowledge that fits the Barbarian trope rather well.
As for Wisdom being a "dump stat" for Barbarians, that's ok if they're just going to be a character that took the Conan back-story of being a slave trained in combat.
If they had a more regular upbringing in a barbarian tribe though - take a look at the 5 skills associated with Wisdom:
Animal Handling
Insight
Medicine
Perception
Survival
For me, 3 of those 5 shout Barbarian at me (Animal Handling, Perception & Survival)!
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
The game does not set DCs so high as to prevent a not-overly wise character from being good enough at perception to hit most of the checks that matter. That's especially true in the case of a rogue, who can use their expertise class feature to be exceptionally good at perception without much wisdom at all.
Of course, the effect of playing in a game with a DM that still thinks in older-edition terms is that DCs will seem to high to regularly pass - since those DMs are likely to think "It's not too hard of a check, so you need a 15" when the 5th-edition suggestions would actually set the DC around 10 or 12 instead. But luckily there is nothing wrong with helping a DM with such thought processes notice they don't really line up, and all it really takes is a comparison of what natural roll a character would need in the system they are thinking in the terms of to what the modern edition character would need (i.e. a 3.5 character would likely be adding their level plus 3 from skill ranks alone to a skill they are invested in, so hitting a DC of 15 requires a natural roll of 11 without any relevant ability modifier at 1st level. Since a 5th edition character would only have their proficiency bonus of +2 to add at first level if we similarly ignore ability modifiers, to match up the needing of a natural roll of 11 would mean the DC would be 13, rather than 15 - and then, realizing that coin-toss odds to succeed at something your character is meant to actually be good at, the DM would hopefully shave another couple of points from the DC to put the odds actually in favor of a proficient character seeming proficient by way of succeeding at a relevant check).
Stormknight - that's my point - most Barbarians are going to be rash berserker types - not a character type I associate with Wisdom. Yet, as you point out, 60% of the Wisdom skills shout Barbarian. This disconnect is what's giving me heartburn.
However, I take your point that D&D "Wisdom" doesn't necessarily match the dictionary definition of wisdom.
I've had a dm tie perception checks to a constitution score... your building is on fire, can you see through the billowing smoke, or are your eyes watering? Are your senses keen enough to hear a twig snap 45 feet to your southeast? Things like that... you won't see any of that in AL, but I'm also of the opinion that there's a reason the game is pencil-and-paper, and not carved in stone. Hope this was helpful. (:
In my opinion it depends on how you think the various stats work.
For example, being "wise" doesn't mean always making the best choice ... it means that your character has acquired a set of life experiences upon which he bases his actions and perhaps a certain level of sense capability that is inherent to the character that is better represented as "wisdom" than another stat.
A "wise" (say 14) wizard with the research background is not the same as a "wise" (say also 14) barbarian with the Outlander background. The 14 score and related proficiencies imply quite different forms of wisdom even if they have a similar level for basic perception. It doesn't mean that what they perceive in a situation is the same.
In addition, both the barbarian and rogue classes have features (barbarian danger sense, feral instinct, rogue expertise, uncanny dodge, evasion) that tend to mitigate to some extent a possibly lower wisdom score by providing extra defenses.
Finally, neither rogues nor barbarians are very likely to increase their wisdom stat and as a result skill proficiency in perception is far more important since the proficiency bonus scales with level. A rogue with expertise in perception and a 10 wis gets a +4 at first level which then scales to a +6 at 5th level and +8 at 9th. Even adding a +1 or +2 from the stat bonus, the expertise bonus remains far more significant. Even without expertise, a regular character with proficiency will have a +4 by 9th level even with a 10 stat in wis. The effect of the stat is really most noticeable only in tier 1 (levels 1 to 4).
However, the other reason to not completely dump wis is because dex, con and wis are the three most likely saves to be encountered as the character progresses. Dumping wisdom then tends to be not such a great idea at times as a result.
All that said, wood elves or variant humans with a 16 in dex and a 16 in wisdom are quite doable and make very good rogues if you are looking for one that can be both perceptive/aware and combat effective. On top of that, there are some other decent builds ... I have a variant human arcane trickster rogue with 8 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 12 wis, 10 cha with expertise in perception and investigation that has +5 perception and +6 investigation which is pretty decent for 3rd level.