I'm looking for some clarification regarding the Hide action, how to use in combat. I mean I see the advantages, but what I can't understand is that for a hide action there must be some cover available as well, but if there's a cover where the character moved, how come another action needs to be spent just to get hidden?
Also, it sounds a bit like the stealth in Skyrim. I attack someone with my bow, then rush behind a corner, and the enemy isn't expecting me anymore to come back?
Also, it sounds a bit like the stealth in Skyrim. I attack someone with my bow, then rush behind a corner, and the enemy isn't expecting me anymore to come back?
That is the exact reason I personally think "Hiding in Combat" is stupid, and I don't allow it in my games as a house rule.
To Clarify My Homebrew: Any creature can hide in combat, but when they reveal themselves to attack with a ranged weapon they are revealed and so lose Adv on the attack. This means a creature still gets the benefits of being hidden on enemy turns, but doesn't get Adv on attacks because when the rogue gets out of cover to shoot. Think of this as ducking behind the threshold of a door and firing around it. Dawnforged has this video, which Jeremy Crawford has clarified is not RAW, but I think it's a good interpretation and why I use it as a base in my HomeBrew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDfGwDuWDDU
That said, This isn't the Homebrew forums so it IS Rules As Written. A creature can Hide in combat. The creature must be at least heavily obscured (exception is Wood Elf allows for light natural obscurement and lightfoot halfing allows for a medium creature) and must pass a Stealth check vs the Passive Perception of the enemies. If the creature leaves the cover that allows to Stealth they are auto-detected, otherwise they are not detected until they reveal themselves. Like after firing a ranged weapon from cover. Keep in mind that a creature can be hidden from some and not all. Keep in mind light obscurement gives DisAdvantage on Perception checks (so -5 to Passive Perception) that rely on sight. Keep in mind heavy obscurement creates the blinded condition which is auto-failure for Perception checks that rely on sight.
If you're a player I recommend talking to your GM about this and get a group consensus on how the group wants to play it. If you're the GM, do the same thing but talk to the players.
It makes sense in some circumstances and can make fights play out like a Hollywood spy movie.
Consider a room with 3 bandits in. A PC rogue steps out into a doorway and throws a dagger into a bandit, killing it, then moves back through the doorway out of sight and jumping up above the doorway and hiding (using cunning action).
The remaining two bandits run through the door to chase the rogue, but (assuming the hide check worked) find what seems to be an empty room and they waste their actions as there is nothing to attack.
The rogue drops down behind the two bandits, killing one of them and now the odds seem much more reasonable.
As FullMetalBunny said above, the key thing to remember is that you can't hide in plain sight and there has to reasonably be somewhere to actually hide if a monster runs over to look.
Thank you guys, both of your idea is really good. So in sum: I'll discuss it of course with the team; Suggest to still allow the hide action, but only with reasonable circumstances. Maybe even allow the opponents to use a bonus action to "Keep an eye out", so hide action loose the effect before attacks, as FullMetalBunny also said. Afterall, there is they can also use their reaction as soon as the threat appears from the cover.
But it makes sense now. The hide action isn't really about taking cover, but more about the right timing of coming out of the cover. Right?
Yup, you got it - it's not a magical invisibility that protects the character from monsters, but used well it can be something that allows a character to strike effectively in an extended combat whilst forcing foes to spend time trying to chase them down.
3-4 goblins can easily take out an entire party by hiding when the DM has them ambush a 3rd or 4th level party in an area where the goblins can use their hide ability.....
I'm confused by the hide action in combat as well. Take the situation where goblins ambush the party on the road, firing arrows from the bushes. Assume they are heavily obscured.
The goblins fire arrows, presumably revealing themselves. They then use their bonus action to hide. Would you all let them do this, or would you hold that they were revealed and couldn't hide? What if the goblins fired, moved 10 feet (still in the brush), then used hide?
Remember one square is a 5 square-ft. If the goblins are in the bushes, the pop up, fire and rehid, the PC don’t know where exactly they are. They are unseen.
The single best resource for understanding the hiding rule is the Sage Advice segment of Dragon Talk. It's one of the few Dragon Talk episodes I think every player should listen to.
You should really not mess with the hiding rules unless you really know what you're doing. Hiding is a core part of travelling and combat, and an entire class is designed around the concept of hiding as a bonus action. The official hiding rules are already about as fast (1 dice roll) and simple as they can get.
Also, it sounds a bit like the stealth in Skyrim. I attack someone with my bow, then rush behind a corner, and the enemy isn't expecting me anymore to come back?
That is the exact reason I personally think "Hiding in Combat" is stupid, and I don't allow it in my games as a house rule.
This scenario is a non-issue. Hiding doesn't cause enemies to forget about you.
A creature can Hide in combat. The creature must be at least heavily obscured (exception is Wood Elf allows for light natural obscurement and lightfoot halfing allows for a medium creature) and must pass a Stealth check vs the Passive Perception of the enemies.
Note that the DM has the final say over whether a creature can try to hide and which creatures might notice them. The DM is free to say you don't need to be obscured to sneak up on someone if the situation makes sense.
If the creature leaves the cover that allows to Stealth they are auto-detected, otherwise they are not detected until they reveal themselves. Like after firing a ranged weapon from cover.
Keep in mind that a creature can be hidden from some and not all.
This is false. Hiding is all or nothing; as soon as you reveal yourself or you're discovered, you're no longer hidden.
Keep in mind light obscurement gives DisAdvantage on Perception checks (so -5 to Passive Perception) that rely on sight. Keep in mind heavy obscurement creates the blinded condition which is auto-failure for Perception checks that rely on sight.
These rules are usually only relevant for finding traps, since you don't need to rely on sight to find a hidden creature (unless you're deaf or they're in an area of magical silence.)
Maybe even allow the opponents to use a bonus action to "Keep an eye out", so hide action loose the effect before attacks, as FullMetalBunny also said.
Finding someone or something that's hidden is what the Search action is for.
But it makes sense now. The hide action isn't really about taking cover, but more about the right timing of coming out of the cover. Right?
Hiding means you're successfully keeping yourself unseen and unheard. That's really all it is.
I'm confused by the hide action in combat as well. Take the situation where goblins ambush the party on the road, firing arrows from the bushes. Assume they are heavily obscured.
The goblins fire arrows, presumably revealing themselves. They then use their bonus action to hide. Would you all let them do this, or would you hold that they were revealed and couldn't hide? What if the goblins fired, moved 10 feet (still in the brush), then used hide?
Nothing forces the goblins to move before hiding again. Any of the players can use the Search to try to spot or hear one or more of the goblins, and if they succeed, those goblins are no longer hidden from anyone. Or they could set fire to the bushes; just because the players lost track of goblin's exact position doesn't mean they don't know they're in the bush.
Keep in mind that a creature can be hidden from some and not all.
This is false. Hiding is all or nothing; as soon as you reveal yourself or you're discovered, you're no longer hidden.
Not quite. As soon as you reveal yourself or the person who can see you points out your location to the person who can't see you, you're no longer hidden.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I was going to comment on that. Also, the DC of Stealth with a lvl 1 human Rogue with Expertise in Perception and Observant shouldn't give a DC: 22 for Stealth checks against the Barbarian with a Passive Perception of 10.
If someone makes a Stealth check of 16, the creature is Stealthed vs the Barbarian, not the Cleric.
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
I was going to comment on that. Also, the DC of Stealth with a lvl 1 human Rogue with Expertise in Perception and Observant shouldn't give a DC: 22 for Stealth checks against the Barbarian with a Passive Perception of 10.
If someone makes a Stealth check of 16, the creature is Stealthed vs the Barbarian, not the Cleric.
You have to beat the passive Perception of everyone that might notice you to hide successfully. If anyone notices you, you've been discovered, and you're no longer hidden.
The hiding rules are super simple: you make 1 roll, and you're either hidden or you're not.
By that definition an Assassin Rogue couldn't not surprise the Passive Perception 10 Barbarian, if there is an optimized Rogue in the party with a Passive Perception of 22. When the Rogue detects the Assassin, the Barbarian automatically knows to as they are not hidden and so would lose Surprise.
Either Stealth can be verses individual creatures or it can't be, but when resolving encounters it's always been vs individual creatures... which is Stealth in combat.
By that definition an Assassin Rogue couldn't not surprise the Passive Perception 10 Barbarian, if there is an optimized Rogue in the party with a Passive Perception of 22. When the Rogue detects the Assassin, the Barbarian automatically knows to as they are not hidden and so would lose Surprise.
You'd determine surprise at the same time you determine who can see the assassin. Determining surprise is the very first step of combat; it happens even before you figure out everyone's positions and you roll initiative.
The Assassin isn't going to start combat hidden, but the Barbarian is still surprised. The Barbarian can still roll high enough initiative that they stop being surprised before the Assassin tries to kill them (especially once they have Feral Instict.) The Assassin might still be unseen, depending on where they're hiding.
Either Stealth can be verses individual creatures or it can't be, but when resolving encounters it's always been vs individual creatures... which is Stealth in combat.
Here's the Hide action:
Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
The rules for hiding are the ones I quoted earlier. It's the same rules in and out of combat.
how come another action needs to be spent just to get hidden?
Because to be hidden, you must be unseen and unheard and unsmelt and untracked.
You have to quiet your breathing. You have to move carefully, so your clothing and gear doesn't rustle or rattle. You have to check your clothing for reflective or brightly coloured items. You have to monitor your surroundings so you don't step on twigs or brush past bushes. You have to cover your tracks. You have to check your scent and the direction of the wind and/or any breezes.
All of this takes action on your part, thus the hide action in combat.
In short: unseen (concealed) does not mean hidden. Unseen is a prerequisite for attempting to hide.
Ok, so related to the fact that I must be unheard as well: can I still cast verbal spells while I'm in stealth? Currently we roll stealth for that (but I'm not sure about the DC). How I imagine that casting is that I have to give a tone to the words, but they don't have to be loud as a speach, just slightly louder as a whispering.
"in stealth" is an odd phrase, but I understand what you mean.
It's up to the DM - they may decide to give any creatures who are close enough to possibly hear you a roll on their perception to see if they hear the vocals.
There is no DC for stealth - it works the other way around. The total you generate for your stealth check becomes the DC for any creature wishing to perceive you.
With respect to whispering vocals, the game designers say that's up to the DM:
A wizard whispers a few words and fire shoots from his hands. A barbarian becomes enraged and does inhuman damage to his foe. A cleric prays to his god and magically heals wounds. A rogue is so stealthy he can hide when an enemy knows he there ... wait NO WAY, that's just not possible!?
Guys it's fantasy. It takes letting go of the reality we know. Why is this so easy for wizards and paladins but not rouges? No one could kill a dragon with a sword, but in D n D they do. No one could hide behind a tree after attacking someone, but in D n D they do.
It's the ninja throwing a smoke bomb and disappearing. It's the monster getting hit on the head, falling behind a couch and when the protagonist looks there they are gone. POOF. Lighten up. Give a rouge a break.
…how come another action needs to be spent just to get hidden?
Because hidden means becoming unseen *and* unheard.
If you move behind a wall you aren't hidden. I know where you are - you are over there behind that wall. In game terms you have cover and concealment but you are not hidden.
If you move behind a wall and then move somewhere else, being careful to mask your noise and make no tracks, then now you are hidden. I don't know where you are.
Hiding requires a character to actively do things (watch where they walk, muffle their gear, breathe quietly, note wind direction, etc). In combat, this requires an Action.
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I'm looking for some clarification regarding the Hide action, how to use in combat. I mean I see the advantages, but what I can't understand is that for a hide action there must be some cover available as well, but if there's a cover where the character moved, how come another action needs to be spent just to get hidden?
Also, it sounds a bit like the stealth in Skyrim. I attack someone with my bow, then rush behind a corner, and the enemy isn't expecting me anymore to come back?
Dawnforged has this video, which Jeremy Crawford has clarified is not RAW, but I think it's a good interpretation and why I use it as a base in my HomeBrew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDfGwDuWDDU
A creature can Hide in combat. The creature must be at least heavily obscured (exception is Wood Elf allows for light natural obscurement and lightfoot halfing allows for a medium creature) and must pass a Stealth check vs the Passive Perception of the enemies.
If the creature leaves the cover that allows to Stealth they are auto-detected, otherwise they are not detected until they reveal themselves. Like after firing a ranged weapon from cover.
Keep in mind that a creature can be hidden from some and not all.
Keep in mind light obscurement gives DisAdvantage on Perception checks (so -5 to Passive Perception) that rely on sight.
Keep in mind heavy obscurement creates the blinded condition which is auto-failure for Perception checks that rely on sight.
If you're a player I recommend talking to your GM about this and get a group consensus on how the group wants to play it. If you're the GM, do the same thing but talk to the players.
It makes sense in some circumstances and can make fights play out like a Hollywood spy movie.
Consider a room with 3 bandits in. A PC rogue steps out into a doorway and throws a dagger into a bandit, killing it, then moves back through the doorway out of sight and jumping up above the doorway and hiding (using cunning action).
The remaining two bandits run through the door to chase the rogue, but (assuming the hide check worked) find what seems to be an empty room and they waste their actions as there is nothing to attack.
The rogue drops down behind the two bandits, killing one of them and now the odds seem much more reasonable.
As FullMetalBunny said above, the key thing to remember is that you can't hide in plain sight and there has to reasonably be somewhere to actually hide if a monster runs over to look.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Thank you guys, both of your idea is really good. So in sum: I'll discuss it of course with the team; Suggest to still allow the hide action, but only with reasonable circumstances. Maybe even allow the opponents to use a bonus action to "Keep an eye out", so hide action loose the effect before attacks, as FullMetalBunny also said. Afterall, there is they can also use their reaction as soon as the threat appears from the cover.
But it makes sense now. The hide action isn't really about taking cover, but more about the right timing of coming out of the cover. Right?
Yup, you got it - it's not a magical invisibility that protects the character from monsters, but used well it can be something that allows a character to strike effectively in an extended combat whilst forcing foes to spend time trying to chase them down.
Of course, monsters can do it too.... :)
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
3-4 goblins can easily take out an entire party by hiding when the DM has them ambush a 3rd or 4th level party in an area where the goblins can use their hide ability.....
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I'm confused by the hide action in combat as well. Take the situation where goblins ambush the party on the road, firing arrows from the bushes. Assume they are heavily obscured.
The goblins fire arrows, presumably revealing themselves. They then use their bonus action to hide. Would you all let them do this, or would you hold that they were revealed and couldn't hide? What if the goblins fired, moved 10 feet (still in the brush), then used hide?
Once the goblins have fired, their position is know, so they then need to move to another point where they could feasibly hide.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Remember one square is a 5 square-ft. If the goblins are in the bushes, the pop up, fire and rehid, the PC don’t know where exactly they are. They are unseen.
The single best resource for understanding the hiding rule is the Sage Advice segment of Dragon Talk. It's one of the few Dragon Talk episodes I think every player should listen to.
You should really not mess with the hiding rules unless you really know what you're doing. Hiding is a core part of travelling and combat, and an entire class is designed around the concept of hiding as a bonus action. The official hiding rules are already about as fast (1 dice roll) and simple as they can get.
Finding someone or something that's hidden is what the Search action is for.
Hiding means you're successfully keeping yourself unseen and unheard. That's really all it is.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Thank you Matthias_von_Schwarzwald,
I was going to comment on that. Also, the DC of Stealth with a lvl 1 human Rogue with Expertise in Perception and Observant shouldn't give a DC: 22 for Stealth checks against the Barbarian with a Passive Perception of 10.
If someone makes a Stealth check of 16, the creature is Stealthed vs the Barbarian, not the Cleric.
"If 1 creature finds me, does that mean I'm no longer hidden from all other creatures?"
"The rules on hiding specify that your Dexterity (Stealth) check is valid until you're discovered or you stop hiding (see PH, 177)."
So, how does that grog with surprise.
By that definition an Assassin Rogue couldn't not surprise the Passive Perception 10 Barbarian, if there is an optimized Rogue in the party with a Passive Perception of 22.
When the Rogue detects the Assassin, the Barbarian automatically knows to as they are not hidden and so would lose Surprise.
Either Stealth can be verses individual creatures or it can't be, but when resolving encounters it's always been vs individual creatures... which is Stealth in combat.
You'd determine surprise at the same time you determine who can see the assassin. Determining surprise is the very first step of combat; it happens even before you figure out everyone's positions and you roll initiative.
The Assassin isn't going to start combat hidden, but the Barbarian is still surprised. The Barbarian can still roll high enough initiative that they stop being surprised before the Assassin tries to kill them (especially once they have Feral Instict.) The Assassin might still be unseen, depending on where they're hiding.
The rules for hiding are the ones I quoted earlier. It's the same rules in and out of combat.
Ok, so related to the fact that I must be unheard as well: can I still cast verbal spells while I'm in stealth? Currently we roll stealth for that (but I'm not sure about the DC). How I imagine that casting is that I have to give a tone to the words, but they don't have to be loud as a speach, just slightly louder as a whispering.
"in stealth" is an odd phrase, but I understand what you mean.
It's up to the DM - they may decide to give any creatures who are close enough to possibly hear you a roll on their perception to see if they hear the vocals.
There is no DC for stealth - it works the other way around. The total you generate for your stealth check becomes the DC for any creature wishing to perceive you.
With respect to whispering vocals, the game designers say that's up to the DM:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/17/audible-verbal-component/
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
A wizard whispers a few words and fire shoots from his hands. A barbarian becomes enraged and does inhuman damage to his foe. A cleric prays to his god and magically heals wounds. A rogue is so stealthy he can hide when an enemy knows he there ... wait NO WAY, that's just not possible!?
Guys it's fantasy. It takes letting go of the reality we know. Why is this so easy for wizards and paladins but not rouges? No one could kill a dragon with a sword, but in D n D they do. No one could hide behind a tree after attacking someone, but in D n D they do.
It's the ninja throwing a smoke bomb and disappearing. It's the monster getting hit on the head, falling behind a couch and when the protagonist looks there they are gone. POOF. Lighten up. Give a rouge a break.
Because hidden means becoming unseen *and* unheard.
If you move behind a wall you aren't hidden. I know where you are - you are over there behind that wall. In game terms you have cover and concealment but you are not hidden.
If you move behind a wall and then move somewhere else, being careful to mask your noise and make no tracks, then now you are hidden. I don't know where you are.
Hiding requires a character to actively do things (watch where they walk, muffle their gear, breathe quietly, note wind direction, etc). In combat, this requires an Action.