Yep the encounter is probably the one you think , I just didn't want to spoil it.
Thanks for the responses , very helpful.
I think I might be able to save things. I'm thinking of when they go back to town to celebrate, they find the town is somewhat destroyed by the dragon's tantrum. But it's also revealed that an npc they have been dealing with is actually a black dragon cult leader. This should lead to a challenging closure fight, but also hooks into another adventure that strikes at the cult's lair with the dragon still a thorn in their side .
I am running Tales from the Yawning Portal during Covid-19 via Zoom with an advanced group of players. We are doing the Forge of Fury, and they just barely escaped the Forge itself as it collapsed behind them Indiana Jones style and they had to make several Athletics/Acrobatics checks to descend the ladder. One failed miserably, one is floating down with feather fall, 2 made it all the way down, and the last fell the final 75 feet and landed on them. They are all kobolds and one is a Rune Knight dwarf (The one who fell on the other two) seeking his father's father's father's father's Rune stamp (Durgeddin). The other fell into the murky Black Dragon lair water below and is at 0hp, is the tank in plate armor and is sinking to the bottom. That was the end of the session.
Next week, as they all collect themselves and attempt to save the tank (who is also the healer Twilight cleric) there will be a rippling surge just below the surface of the water (think an orca attacking a seal on a beach) as Nightscale swims in to feast upon what she presumes is a sacrifice thrown down the pit by the duergar from above. They will see this as they approach the edge of the water to save their friend. If they dare to enter the water, they will not be able to navigate the supernaturally fouled depths to find his corpse before Nightscale makes off with it.
Then as they mourn their fallen companion, a voice like rotten hatred will echo from down the deep dank tunnel walls. "I thought I had simply another meal...but it seems you are not the gray dwarves from above. Kobolds? Tiny lizard men who think they are related to dragons? Pathetic. Cowardly. Foolish. *CRUNCH* Delicious."
Then they will hear a buzzing sound coming down the tunnel growing louder and louder. A swarm of biting flies blackens the bio-luminescent fungi in the cavern, filling the beach where they stand with buzzing, biting and stinging as a cruel laughter is heard echoing down the tunnel...
Now they must actually enter her lair. She is prepared. She is vile. She is waiting...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their dice rolls.
Next time you run a dragon, don't let your players fight him on easy mode.
Focus fire all attacks on one target with intent to kill.
Use the Attack Action to grapple a PC then fly off...
Remember to Use the Legendary Actions. You can use all 3 charges every round on PC's turns. They recharge at the start of the Dragon's Turn.
Use the environment to your advantage. Green Dragons can breath underwater. Maybe its lair has a deep pool and the Dragon will grapple a PC then drag it underwater to test its lung capacity.
I can’t recommend these ones enough. These should necessitate every party to have to work VERY hard to kill a Dragon - I’m talking prepping for flight, running away, grapples, everything. If your PCs think they just need enough damage... they’re doing it wrong.
Also - I must stress... do not forget the Wing Attack Legendary action has 2 primary uses: 1) Using it to move away up to an extra 40ft each round and out of the way from melee characters once a grapple has succeeded, and 2) for use RIGHT BEFORE the Dragon’s turn to get Advantage on a WHOLE lot of attacks because the guy he just hit is now prone.
I suggest the same with Tarrasques - Swallow and run 100ft per round using the Legendary Actions until the first PC is dissolved. Then return for the others... It’s diabolical.
I have my first dragon encounter as a DM coming up very soon. My group has mixed experience but they have done very well so far handling combat encounters non-traditionally. I really want to do it justice and give them a run for their money. They are level 4 now and it is just a Young Green Dragon, but I really want to make them sweat and think outside the box. None of them are casters or healers, so I can't wait to see how this turns out.
I had fun with a dragon encounter for my Saturday party... a Young Black Dragon in an underground lake, with an isle upon which rested its hoard. Said dragon was well-aware of the party's approach, and had slunk deep into the lake to await the party's arrival... after using one of his two spells to cast Silent Image, forming a 'sleeping' illusion of itself amidst the hoard. So the party slinks in, a couple sticking to the patches of land along the perimeter of the lake, and a couple taking a small boat across to the lake. The moment one of them had fired an arrow through the Silent Image, the dragon struck, breathing a gout of acid that melted the boat and heavily damaged the boating adventurers in a surprise attack. It was a hard battle, and it nearly slipped away via Invisibility, but a lucky shot by the centaur archer, the closing charge of the barbarian, and the powerful magicks of the wizard finalized its defeat.
Granted, they nearly succumbed to a hungry Roper on the way back, but still a hard-fought, brutal battle.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Working on a supplement for the adventure-minded. A project including (and crediting) homebrew subclasses from the community, a world of my own design, premade characters, magic items, and even a prologue adventure to start things off!
Past and Current Characters: Morgann 'Duskspear' Solbeard, Hill Dwarf Paladin/Fighter/Warlock; Ephemeral 'Skye' Solbeard, Hill Dwarf Artificer; Zaldrick Lawscrip of Orzhov, Hobgoblin Wizard; Eremys Spydrun, Shadar'kai Monk; Cuchulainn, Wood Elf Blood Hunter.
I had fun with a dragon encounter for my Saturday party... a Young Black Dragon in an underground lake, with an isle upon which rested its hoard. Said dragon was well-aware of the party's approach, and had slunk deep into the lake to await the party's arrival... after using one of his two spells to cast Silent Image, forming a 'sleeping' illusion of itself amidst the hoard. So the party slinks in, a couple sticking to the patches of land along the perimeter of the lake, and a couple taking a small boat across to the lake. The moment one of them had fired an arrow through the Silent Image, the dragon struck, breathing a gout of acid that melted the boat and heavily damaged the boating adventurers in a surprise attack. It was a hard battle, and it nearly slipped away via Invisibility, but a lucky shot by the centaur archer, the closing charge of the barbarian, and the powerful magicks of the wizard finalized its defeat.
Granted, they nearly succumbed to a hungry Roper on the way back, but still a hard-fought, brutal battle.
I love this story, especially how you used the decoy and the roper at the end...
DMs! Make your party fight their way OUT of the lair! It’s awesome watching them struggle because they thought they could burnout all their spells and features on the BBEG 🙂
Agreed with most of what was said in the OP. Except for Sleep. Only use that might get is when the party is heavily wounded to begin with. Otherwise its just a waste. I've noticed that a lot of DM's complain how weak dragons area in 5e. To some degree I agree with that statement, because they no longer have innate spellcasting. Nothing a few levels in Sorcery can't fix. It also has to do with the mindset of a lot of DM's these days. They just don't want to kill the PC's and play with kitten gloves on all the time. Making their complaints just not really worth it.
At my table there are new players only. Running them through a Red Hand of Doom inspired campaign. Meaning lots of dragons with Tiamat's avatar around lvl 11. They encountered a white Wyrm in an enclosed "dining room" within the Sunless Citadel. It terrified them. That Breath Attack against lvl 1 or 2 PC's can be so deadly. Next up Nightscale in a modified Forge of Fury. This was well played by them. Due to bad rolls on my behalf it didn't feel as deadly as I had hoped...at least from my end of the table. They were still pissing their pants apparently. It had weakened version of a Black Dragons Lair Actions and stayed under water a lot. Druid with summon creatures such as poison snakes/octopus kind of helped here. And the 3/4 cover the dragon had was negated due to the sharpshooter feats. Since the party had thrown a duergar down the ladder... Nightscale used him as a distraction. PC's going to the duergar: "how the F did you survive the fall?". Rolled a nat 20 on stealth for the dragon to get behind the party and catch them all in the breath attack as opener.
The original plan was to wait till 80hp or so and have the dragon get away. Then harass the party for the days it took them to get down the mountain pass. Waiting for the PC's to rest/sleep and interrupt them. Drain their resources and give them exhaustion points. While the dragon could rest up here and there for an hour or 2-3 in a row to get some HP back at least. With a final encounter at the bottom of the mountain near the village. However the PC's had the most lucky/epic finish. Holding their actions and three of them critting on it as well. The odds were in their favor and ruined my plan. Killing the dragon on the spot as it lunged out of the water for a multi-attack on the Bard. If all three hit the bard would be grappled and dragged under water. And potentially as a hostage if it went well.Damn those readied actions and my misses on the attacks. ;)
Next Dragon will be the Young Green Dragon on Skullgorge Bridge in RHOD module. I modified that to have more of the 3.5 elements. There the dragon drinks two potions before engaging the fight. Now I have made it so on the other end of the bridge is a small war camp with some hobgoblins with levels in bard/sorceror that play the war drums when the PC's are spotted. Doing so they'll cast Haste and Enhanced Ability on the young green dragon. Giving it advantage on Grapple Checks and increased movement speed and AC. I looked up tropical weather climate and thankfully there is a phenomena that creates fog and mist naturally. Meaning that I have the lower part of the gorge below the bridge be covered in it. Giving the dragon a chance to hide if need be. Or the PC's if they are feeling brave and found a way to fly...Which the Aarakocra and druid in wildshape should be able to. I've also given the Dragon 1 or 2 levels in Sorcery so it can cast Charm and Fog to make it more thematically fitting. Can't wait to see how they'll deal with that.
What I do when running a set piece encounter. An encounter that is important and needs to have weight and meaning to it... I refresh my knowledge about the creatures used and their tactics. Even writing out a basic round by round play of what they would do in the most optimal case. MonsterKnows website and AJ Pickett youtube are great starting points for me.
My DM tried all of these. The dragon only got one turn, and it was prone. We had a bag of holding with all sorts of junk dumped on the dragons head. 400 damage. The wizard teleported the druid above it, and the druid turned into a whale and fell for 100 damage. The wizard (who had fighter levels) then used his action surge to transmute rock above the dragons head dropping a massive quantity of mud on it, and knocking it prone. Fighters beat it almost to death. The dragon used its fire breath and lair action on the Dragonborn (fire resistant) who survived. The druid hit it again as a whale, and the wizard finished it with a lightning bolt. We had one level 6 and 3 level 11s. This was a maxed-out Ancient Red Dragon.
I really hate when thread necromancy zombifies a legitimately interesting conversation you wish you could've participated in when it actually made sense to do so. Ugh.
All monsters should be run just as intelligently. It makes me sad when they don't use tactics.
One thing Iearned about dragons came from seeing the ones in Guild Wars 2.
Dragons there are the big bads of the setting, and are really nasty. The black one basically had commands of undead hoards, and we're not just talking zombies. We're looking at some rather nasty undead creations that can do a wide variety of things. Vecna, eat your heart out.
The green one? Archdruid mixed with a bard's illusions and enchantments. Its poison came in the form of messing with your head as well as the very ground you walked on. Going into a forest after one was tricky, because that forest turned into a trap riddled maze, combined with the equivalent of evil dryads that can charm you.
The red one lived in freaking lava. Its common knowledge that reds live in volcanoes. Its also common knowledge that fire elementals (not just the elemental critters, but everything fire themed from that plane, including djinn and more) show up around there, and that its best not to use fire magic. Combine all that. The bare minimum needed to fight a red dragon is being able to survive in its lair of molten rock; it can use a lair action to cause a magma geyser, sure, but think about it. Its lair is filled with magma EVERYWHERE. Its scales should be covered in still cooling magma.
Haven't quite seen the blue, white or "sea dragon" yet, though that will change for blue soon enough. And I'm betting the sea dragon's going to be a combination of a dragon turtle, kracken, and mind flayer, but those leviathans are different than D&D's dragons.
Exactly play the monster smart because Dragons are the boss fight give it a healing spell if a player is killing it to fast. Have it gain new abilities at half health and make them have to learn a new version of the dragon that can do something new.
Tbh I even give some humanoid monsters class levels when I dm like kobolds if I dm at least one of them per encounter has oh I don't know a few levels of Rogue or Ranger or even monk infact I make them the same level as the lowest level party member
My DM tried all of these. The dragon only got one turn, and it was prone. We had a bag of holding with all sorts of junk dumped on the dragons head. 400 damage. The wizard teleported the druid above it, and the druid turned into a whale and fell for 100 damage. The wizard (who had fighter levels) then used his action surge to transmute rock above the dragons head dropping a massive quantity of mud on it, and knocking it prone. Fighters beat it almost to death. The dragon used its fire breath and lair action on the Dragonborn (fire resistant) who survived. The druid hit it again as a whale, and the wizard finished it with a lightning bolt. We had one level 6 and 3 level 11s. This was a maxed-out Ancient Red Dragon.
Well, when you throw in a bunch of house rules, you can't really compare to some of the strategies listed here on how to play them devilishly. If these were the house rules, I'd merely hide as a dragon and freefall on top of the party and do 400 damage to each of them on round 1. Dex save for half maybe?
- Lair Effects (Black dragon swooping down at any moment while PC's navigate a thick deadly swamp before reaching the lair itself)
- Minions ("Just then as the paladin was holding the dragon down ready for the wizard's finisher, hordes of abominations started coming out of the walls of the lair itself, drowning the wizard in a mass of goo")
- Flying (Escape when PC's are going to win super hard fought battle)
- Smarts (Why fight a bunch of heavily armored dragon annihilating specialists when you can deal such devastation to the populace around them that the PC's starve to death)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Yep the encounter is probably the one you think , I just didn't want to spoil it.
Thanks for the responses , very helpful.
I think I might be able to save things. I'm thinking of when they go back to town to celebrate, they find the town is somewhat destroyed by the dragon's tantrum. But it's also revealed that an npc they have been dealing with is actually a black dragon cult leader. This should lead to a challenging closure fight, but also hooks into another adventure that strikes at the cult's lair with the dragon still a thorn in their side .
I just caught what you meant about the necromancer . Sorry I googled dragon fleeing and this post popped up . Didn't think to check the date .:)
I am running Tales from the Yawning Portal during Covid-19 via Zoom with an advanced group of players. We are doing the Forge of Fury, and they just barely escaped the Forge itself as it collapsed behind them Indiana Jones style and they had to make several Athletics/Acrobatics checks to descend the ladder. One failed miserably, one is floating down with feather fall, 2 made it all the way down, and the last fell the final 75 feet and landed on them.
They are all kobolds and one is a Rune Knight dwarf (The one who fell on the other two) seeking his father's father's father's father's Rune stamp (Durgeddin). The other fell into the murky Black Dragon lair water below and is at 0hp, is the tank in plate armor and is sinking to the bottom. That was the end of the session.
Next week, as they all collect themselves and attempt to save the tank (who is also the healer Twilight cleric) there will be a rippling surge just below the surface of the water (think an orca attacking a seal on a beach) as Nightscale swims in to feast upon what she presumes is a sacrifice thrown down the pit by the duergar from above. They will see this as they approach the edge of the water to save their friend. If they dare to enter the water, they will not be able to navigate the supernaturally fouled depths to find his corpse before Nightscale makes off with it.
Then as they mourn their fallen companion, a voice like rotten hatred will echo from down the deep dank tunnel walls. "I thought I had simply another meal...but it seems you are not the gray dwarves from above. Kobolds? Tiny lizard men who think they are related to dragons? Pathetic. Cowardly. Foolish. *CRUNCH* Delicious."
Then they will hear a buzzing sound coming down the tunnel growing louder and louder. A swarm of biting flies blackens the bio-luminescent fungi in the cavern, filling the beach where they stand with buzzing, biting and stinging as a cruel laughter is heard echoing down the tunnel...
Now they must actually enter her lair. She is prepared. She is vile. She is waiting...
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their dice rolls.
I can’t recommend these ones enough. These should necessitate every party to have to work VERY hard to kill a Dragon - I’m talking prepping for flight, running away, grapples, everything. If your PCs think they just need enough damage... they’re doing it wrong.
Also - I must stress... do not forget the Wing Attack Legendary action has 2 primary uses: 1) Using it to move away up to an extra 40ft each round and out of the way from melee characters once a grapple has succeeded, and 2) for use RIGHT BEFORE the Dragon’s turn to get Advantage on a WHOLE lot of attacks because the guy he just hit is now prone.
I suggest the same with Tarrasques - Swallow and run 100ft per round using the Legendary Actions until the first PC is dissolved. Then return for the others... It’s diabolical.
I have my first dragon encounter as a DM coming up very soon. My group has mixed experience but they have done very well so far handling combat encounters non-traditionally. I really want to do it justice and give them a run for their money. They are level 4 now and it is just a Young Green Dragon, but I really want to make them sweat and think outside the box. None of them are casters or healers, so I can't wait to see how this turns out.
I had fun with a dragon encounter for my Saturday party... a Young Black Dragon in an underground lake, with an isle upon which rested its hoard. Said dragon was well-aware of the party's approach, and had slunk deep into the lake to await the party's arrival... after using one of his two spells to cast Silent Image, forming a 'sleeping' illusion of itself amidst the hoard. So the party slinks in, a couple sticking to the patches of land along the perimeter of the lake, and a couple taking a small boat across to the lake. The moment one of them had fired an arrow through the Silent Image, the dragon struck, breathing a gout of acid that melted the boat and heavily damaged the boating adventurers in a surprise attack. It was a hard battle, and it nearly slipped away via Invisibility, but a lucky shot by the centaur archer, the closing charge of the barbarian, and the powerful magicks of the wizard finalized its defeat.
Granted, they nearly succumbed to a hungry Roper on the way back, but still a hard-fought, brutal battle.
Working on a supplement for the adventure-minded. A project including (and crediting) homebrew subclasses from the community, a world of my own design, premade characters, magic items, and even a prologue adventure to start things off!
Past and Current Characters: Morgann 'Duskspear' Solbeard, Hill Dwarf Paladin/Fighter/Warlock; Ephemeral 'Skye' Solbeard, Hill Dwarf Artificer; Zaldrick Lawscrip of Orzhov, Hobgoblin Wizard; Eremys Spydrun, Shadar'kai Monk; Cuchulainn, Wood Elf Blood Hunter.
I love this story, especially how you used the decoy and the roper at the end...
DMs! Make your party fight their way OUT of the lair! It’s awesome watching them struggle because they thought they could burnout all their spells and features on the BBEG 🙂
Agreed with most of what was said in the OP. Except for Sleep. Only use that might get is when the party is heavily wounded to begin with. Otherwise its just a waste. I've noticed that a lot of DM's complain how weak dragons area in 5e. To some degree I agree with that statement, because they no longer have innate spellcasting. Nothing a few levels in Sorcery can't fix. It also has to do with the mindset of a lot of DM's these days. They just don't want to kill the PC's and play with kitten gloves on all the time. Making their complaints just not really worth it.
At my table there are new players only. Running them through a Red Hand of Doom inspired campaign. Meaning lots of dragons with Tiamat's avatar around lvl 11. They encountered a white Wyrm in an enclosed "dining room" within the Sunless Citadel. It terrified them. That Breath Attack against lvl 1 or 2 PC's can be so deadly. Next up Nightscale in a modified Forge of Fury. This was well played by them. Due to bad rolls on my behalf it didn't feel as deadly as I had hoped...at least from my end of the table. They were still pissing their pants apparently. It had weakened version of a Black Dragons Lair Actions and stayed under water a lot. Druid with summon creatures such as poison snakes/octopus kind of helped here. And the 3/4 cover the dragon had was negated due to the sharpshooter feats. Since the party had thrown a duergar down the ladder... Nightscale used him as a distraction. PC's going to the duergar: "how the F did you survive the fall?". Rolled a nat 20 on stealth for the dragon to get behind the party and catch them all in the breath attack as opener.
The original plan was to wait till 80hp or so and have the dragon get away. Then harass the party for the days it took them to get down the mountain pass. Waiting for the PC's to rest/sleep and interrupt them. Drain their resources and give them exhaustion points. While the dragon could rest up here and there for an hour or 2-3 in a row to get some HP back at least. With a final encounter at the bottom of the mountain near the village. However the PC's had the most lucky/epic finish. Holding their actions and three of them critting on it as well. The odds were in their favor and ruined my plan. Killing the dragon on the spot as it lunged out of the water for a multi-attack on the Bard. If all three hit the bard would be grappled and dragged under water. And potentially as a hostage if it went well.Damn those readied actions and my misses on the attacks. ;)
Next Dragon will be the Young Green Dragon on Skullgorge Bridge in RHOD module. I modified that to have more of the 3.5 elements. There the dragon drinks two potions before engaging the fight. Now I have made it so on the other end of the bridge is a small war camp with some hobgoblins with levels in bard/sorceror that play the war drums when the PC's are spotted. Doing so they'll cast Haste and Enhanced Ability on the young green dragon. Giving it advantage on Grapple Checks and increased movement speed and AC. I looked up tropical weather climate and thankfully there is a phenomena that creates fog and mist naturally. Meaning that I have the lower part of the gorge below the bridge be covered in it. Giving the dragon a chance to hide if need be. Or the PC's if they are feeling brave and found a way to fly...Which the Aarakocra and druid in wildshape should be able to. I've also given the Dragon 1 or 2 levels in Sorcery so it can cast Charm and Fog to make it more thematically fitting. Can't wait to see how they'll deal with that.
What I do when running a set piece encounter. An encounter that is important and needs to have weight and meaning to it... I refresh my knowledge about the creatures used and their tactics. Even writing out a basic round by round play of what they would do in the most optimal case. MonsterKnows website and AJ Pickett youtube are great starting points for me.
As a question. Why don't dragons have Flyby in 5e?
My DM tried all of these. The dragon only got one turn, and it was prone. We had a bag of holding with all sorts of junk dumped on the dragons head. 400 damage. The wizard teleported the druid above it, and the druid turned into a whale and fell for 100 damage. The wizard (who had fighter levels) then used his action surge to transmute rock above the dragons head dropping a massive quantity of mud on it, and knocking it prone. Fighters beat it almost to death. The dragon used its fire breath and lair action on the Dragonborn (fire resistant) who survived. The druid hit it again as a whale, and the wizard finished it with a lightning bolt. We had one level 6 and 3 level 11s. This was a maxed-out Ancient Red Dragon.
TPK
I really hate when thread necromancy zombifies a legitimately interesting conversation you wish you could've participated in when it actually made sense to do so. Ugh.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
very helpful
Forest of Wonders DMless campaign
>Recruitment Thread< >Game Thread<
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
Exactly play the monster smart because Dragons are the boss fight give it a healing spell if a player is killing it to fast. Have it gain new abilities at half health and make them have to learn a new version of the dragon that can do something new.
Tbh I even give some humanoid monsters class levels when I dm like kobolds if I dm at least one of them per encounter has oh I don't know a few levels of Rogue or Ranger or even monk infact I make them the same level as the lowest level party member
Well, when you throw in a bunch of house rules, you can't really compare to some of the strategies listed here on how to play them devilishly. If these were the house rules, I'd merely hide as a dragon and freefall on top of the party and do 400 damage to each of them on round 1. Dex save for half maybe?
Great Read
Saw a few great ideas for the up coming battle with a dragon for the party.
Thanks again
Grumpyoldguy
Remember people if you make someone prone and then grapple them they cant get up untill they break the grapple. Fighters and Barbs trip and tickle.
Underused dragon capabilities:
- Lair Effects (Black dragon swooping down at any moment while PC's navigate a thick deadly swamp before reaching the lair itself)
- Minions ("Just then as the paladin was holding the dragon down ready for the wizard's finisher, hordes of abominations started coming out of the walls of the lair itself, drowning the wizard in a mass of goo")
- Flying (Escape when PC's are going to win super hard fought battle)
- Smarts (Why fight a bunch of heavily armored dragon annihilating specialists when you can deal such devastation to the populace around them that the PC's starve to death)
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"