That is a very good question. If it's metallic, it's because it doesn't want to rule. If it's chromatic, it's because it doesn't want to have to put up with the paperwork.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
So I ran into a similar tactic by our long time DM a few weeks ago. Except we were fighting the dragon and a high level Wizard in a volcano which happened to be the lair for both the dragon and the Wizard. The dragon was not only picking people up and throwing PCs around but it was throwing our PC's into the freaking lava. At one point the dragon picked up a PC and dove into the lava which did nothing to the dragon but the PC was almost toast when it surfaced.
Now our group was 15th level and out of 6 people 3 survived to the end. Best battle with a dragon ever.
The best thing my players ever learned was it's much easier and better for their lifespan to cut a deal with the dragon and never look back.
At level 3 The party was charged to go to a old ruin on a mountain top , and clean it out as the local Church wanted to refurbish it into a temple. The part goes in finds nothing but bodies of all sorts of creatures and some kobolds. After getting to the top they find on the top floor of the ruin is a massive Green Dragon. The party not being stupid and wanting to live make a deal If they are allowed to leave with one scale they will tell the city below that the Dragon is the avatar of Bahamut and he is doing his work and must be left alone. Some very lucky rolls later the Party leaves the town and never looks back
The most satisfying creatures or boss fights are always the ones that come back to taunt the players again and again. I find having a recurring figure makes them that more likely to get engaged in a climactic fight.
The most satisfying creatures or boss fights are always the ones that come back to taunt the players again and again. I find having a recurring figure makes them that more likely to get engaged in a climactic fight.
Awesome post, thank you very much for the link!
That is sooo true. In 3rd Ed we played Shackled City. Tongueeater the wereBaboon was the BANE of our group. We defeated dragons, demons, beholders, the demonic beholder that was the resurrected beholder we killed (it was pissed).
But that monkey... that monkey escaped every time. He was our white whale.
I'm about to run an encounter with a modified Gold Dragon. It's Huge, like an Adult Gold Dragon, has some spells, and some extra health, but otherwise the stats are of a Young Gold Dragon. There are seven PCs in my party, all at level 6. According to the the DMG (and Kobold Fight Club), a CR 10 is an "Easy" encounter for six level 6 PCs. Even with only five PCs, the encounter would only be "Hard".
But the 10d10 fire breath weapon of the Young Gold Dragon will, on average, one-shot anyone in the party who fails the save.
The party has taken some precautions, stocking up on healing potions, talking about tactics, etc. One even has fire immunity from a (randomly rolled loot reward) Efreeti Chain. Still, I think they are ill-prepared. They are entering the dragon's lair, and soon will be crossing a choke point, a bridge over a long drop, where, logically, the dragon would swoop in and hit them while they are grouped up. If the whole party gets hit with this breath weapon, I don't see how they are going to survive the encounter, let alone win.
So, what do I do? Do I play the dragon stupidly so that they have a chance? Or do I risk the TPK (on what is really a side quest)?
The main questions are why are they there, and why does the Gold dragon want to kill them?
It's entirely likely the dragon humors their visit (invasion?) and asks their reasons before it reacts with the knee-jerk reaction of a red dragon.
Push comes to shove, if you want to avoid the breath as a party wiper, introduce the dragon with a minor event where he uses his breath on someone/something, so he doesn't have it on first round if you want to start in combat (and you roll to refresh as normal). It can still be painful if he rolls a 6 on the second round or something, but they will hopefully escape the certain kill corridor of fire.
So, they originally came looking for some renowned pirate, hoping to collect a bounty on his head. It turned out the pirate was actually a gold dragon. There was a short fight, where the dragon tried to win them over with charms and enchantment and his weakening breath. Failing that, he retreated to his lair.
After trying to fight through his lair, and one party member dying, they came to an agreement with the dragon to leave peacefully with a small token from the dragon's horde. As part of the bargain, he wiped their memories, so they couldn't find his lair again.
However, when returning to the mainland, they raised their dead party member, whose memory wasn't wiped. With raised party member filling them in, they set out back to the dragon's lair with the intent to finish the job.
At this point, he has humored them long enough, and if they sleep within his lair effect he will make it clear that he intends to kill them if they continue (using his ability to communicate through dreams).
I was planning for the first round to target the fire-immune fighter (who was doing the most ranged damage in the last fight) with the breath weapon, so I can tell them how much damage he would have taken, and maybe they surrender or run. But if anyone else is nearby him, they are probably knocked out immediately.
Make them realize that Gold Dragon's aren't evil beings...by introducing a bigger threat were they will need to ally with Goldy to take care of. Flex the dragon's muscles against someone then have it challenge a party member to one v one combat honorably.
...by introducing a bigger threat were they will need to ally with Goldy to take care of.
The campaign even has a bigger threat. That's why they are going around, collecting magic items and experience, in preparation for that fight. Unfortunately, they have started leaning a bit into the murderhobo spectrum.
Flex the dragon's muscles against someone then have it challenge a party member to one v one combat honorably.
I doubt the dragon would expect them to accept that, let alone honor it. They've already returned after being allowed to leave peacefully under the condition they never come back. Still, I guess he can make that challenge without actually stepping into the open.
I think you have a lot going on here but will do my best to address it all. Please remember my comments are just my opinion and not something people should take as "rule of law." If you disagree with me, that is totally cool, there is not right way to play D&D - there is simply fun and not fun D&D.
D&D is a game of choices. Characters are presented with choices and there are consequences to their actions/decisions. If the characters have been warned that the dragon is a Lawful Good, and have been pardoned for intruding once before and still try to go after him, they should experience the full wrath of the dragon. The dragon should interpret their intrusion as a threat, an act of violence, and must be stopped. Furthermore what they are doing could be considered by some as an evil act which could affect other parts of your story/campaign.
Now getting the crunch of the game, if you run that encounter on the choke point (which is very smart of the dragon), they do not stand a chance. They will be clumped up, that bridge could light on fire, they could fall off the bridge into a fiery death, etc. The dragon has no reason to land and can simply fly around while the characters panic and it waits for a breath weapon to recharge from the safety of the high ceilings. If you run it where there is not difficult terrain or rather not limited by a small space I think they have a chance. The real choice is do you want to give them a fighting chance or would the dragon defend itself to the best of its ability? That is something you must answer for yourself.
Personally I would roast this party because they are going back to mess with something they know should not be messed with. They were already pardoned once by this dragon, they should not be pardoned again. I might have the dragon shape shift again (to a form they haven't seen before) and give a final warning since it is Lawful Good.
To explain the DMG encounter building math stuff, the reason it is considered "Easy" is because of what some people call the "action economy" of the game. Simply put how many actions do player characters get vs the monsters in an round of combat during an encounter. In this example you have 6 characters vs 1 monster. Basically you have 6 actions vs 1 action. Even if we considered the Multiattack action from monsters and Extra Attack part of the Attack action from Characters, the characters get way more chances to hit that 1 monster. Now lets look at Hit Points. The average HP of a Young Gold Dragon is 178. Lets say for this example that the average HP of a lvl 6 character is 50. So 50 x 6 party members is 300, that is almost double the life of the dragon.
The reason you have to be careful with this math though is that it doesn't always consider terrain or tactics. In this example if you clump everyone on a bridge (which is smart of the dragon and foolish of the players), that one breath weapon will cause some serious damage; the average damage on failed fire breath from this dragon is 55. You could even be a really mean and have the dragon exhale on them from below (flying up) so that people do not see it coming or add some terrain effects where as the dragon swoops down on the bridge it sways and people need to make saves to prevent from falling, or the bridge lights on fire.
Then again the dragon is Lawful Good and he may engage in conversation with a final warning instead of just surprising them with a breath weapon.
You also mentioned that you increased your Dragon's HP and gave him spells. Please be aware that this affects the Challenge Rating. If you increase HP and give it spells that dragon is most certainly not a CR 10 anymore. I would say its closer to 13-14 without even knowing what spells you chose or how much HP you increased it.
This whole encounter could go either way really depending where you run it and how you run it. The fact that the dragon does not have Legendary Resistance or Frightful Presence is the only reason why your party stands a chance. If the party includes characters with Crowd Control Spells the Dragon is at the mercy of its saving throws and could easily get killed in the first round because of the action economy. If you want to add difficulty without feeling like you are being excessively cruel and fight on normal ground you can add a few monsters that work for and protect the dragon. This balances the action economy 6 vs 4 or whatever and suddenly the encounter is more challenging but they players do not feel they are being cheated by being surprised on a wood bridge suspended way over lava.
To be honest this whole situation make me nervous as a DM as the players seem to be walking themselves into a TPK. Remember you are not forcing them to return to fight this dragon, but if they want a fight, that dragon will give them a fight of a lifetime.
I hope you find this helpful and wasn't too wordy or confusing.
I don't know what I'd do, but I don't believe the party deserves any mercy. It's not like they've accidentally stumbled into a powerful monster's lair early in the game. This is entirely player choice and you could argue that you're diminishing player agency by going soft on them.
I wish these forums used Markdown. It'd be much easier to split up quotes to respond in pieces.
First off, I just want to say thanks for the advice.
I've decided what I'm going to do: the dragon will call out to the party right before they cross that bridge and make one last plea/threat. He'll use Change Shape as a spider to hide on the bottom of the bridge. Hopefully, the juxtaposition of the dragon's booming voice and the narrow walkway will make them think twice about their plan. The party also has an evil intelligent item with them, and it has been repeatedly trying to get them killed, so I may have it egg them on as some obvious reverse psychology. It's pulling the punch a little, but the dragon (much like myself) doesn't really want to kill all these people. If they do press on, he'll pop up from under the bridge and light them up, and likely win the battle.
Ideally, the fire-immune fighter or the fire-resistant Tiefling will press across first, take the opening breath weapon alone so I can telegraph the potential damage, and the party can adjust accordingly.
Some clarification/correction on some details of the fight, if you are curious.
The bridge they are about to cross is stone, so they don't have to worry about it burning. It's actually the Cosmic Hallway (area 19) in the Dungeon of Xonthal's Tower in the Rise of Tiamat. I took the dungeon and reskinned it slightly for this adventure.
As for the modified dragon's CR, I figure it is between CR 10 (Young Gold Dragon - Easy) and CR 17 (Adult Gold Dragon - Hard). That's quite the spread, but I figure it's on the lower end. Basically, it's a Young Gold Dragon except for the following.
He is Huge instead of Large, so it has d12 hit dice instead of d10, raising its average HP from 178 to 204. This still falls around the CR 10 area.
He has the spell list from the Enchanter. This was added as his pirate persona had a reputation for convincing people to hand over their ships without a fight. He'll likely start with Haste on himself, so that he can drop Change Shape and then use his Breath Weapon in the same opening turn. Other than that, I don't expect he'll cast any spells, as his turns will be better spent doing dragon stuff. I'd estimate this increases his CR by a point.
He has the Legendary Actions, Legendary Resistances, and Change Shape of the Adult Gold Dragon. This certainly bumps CR a couple points.
In all, without wanting to do all of the calculations, I'd estimate him at a CR 13, which is Medium for this party. So, your more-or-less blind guess lines up pretty dang well. Kudos. With all the strategic advantage he has, I'll probably award XP as a CR 15, if they somehow win.
Anyway, yeah, it seems foolhardy of them. The thing that's making me more nervous now is that we'll be on a hiatus until the new year. So if we go two months without playing, and then the first session back is a TPK, that's going to be a serious letdown.
I wish these forums used Markdown. It'd be much easier to split up quotes to respond in pieces.
Ah, but you can do so already.
He has the spell list from the Enchanter. This was added as his pirate persona had a reputation for convincing people to hand over their ships without a fight. He'll likely start with Haste on himself, so that he can drop Change Shape and then use his Breath Weapon in the same opening turn. Other than that, I don't expect he'll cast any spells, as his turns will be better spent doing dragon stuff. I'd estimate this increases his CR by a point.
Note limitation on haste extra action. Always note limitation on haste extra action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
So I ran into a similar tactic by our long time DM a few weeks ago. Except we were fighting the dragon and a high level Wizard in a volcano which happened to be the lair for both the dragon and the Wizard. The dragon was not only picking people up and throwing PCs around but it was throwing our PC's into the freaking lava. At one point the dragon picked up a PC and dove into the lava which did nothing to the dragon but the PC was almost toast when it surfaced.
Now our group was 15th level and out of 6 people 3 survived to the end. Best battle with a dragon ever.
If your dragon is not causing this kind of damage.... you are DM'ing it wrong... ;) GOT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvtVK3GxoO4
Warren LaFrance
AKA: Hexa Dulce
The best thing my players ever learned was it's much easier and better for their lifespan to cut a deal with the dragon and never look back.
At level 3 The party was charged to go to a old ruin on a mountain top , and clean it out as the local Church wanted to refurbish it into a temple. The part goes in finds nothing but bodies of all sorts of creatures and some kobolds. After getting to the top they find on the top floor of the ruin is a massive Green Dragon. The party not being stupid and wanting to live make a deal If they are allowed to leave with one scale they will tell the city below that the Dragon is the avatar of Bahamut and he is doing his work and must be left alone. Some very lucky rolls later the Party leaves the town and never looks back
And it was that day Dragons weren't just a myth, they weren't malformed critters the size of cats, they were in fact the bane of lions
The most satisfying creatures or boss fights are always the ones that come back to taunt the players again and again. I find having a recurring figure makes them that more likely to get engaged in a climactic fight.
Awesome post, thank you very much for the link!
So, I need some advice on this subject.
I'm about to run an encounter with a modified Gold Dragon. It's Huge, like an Adult Gold Dragon, has some spells, and some extra health, but otherwise the stats are of a Young Gold Dragon. There are seven PCs in my party, all at level 6. According to the the DMG (and Kobold Fight Club), a CR 10 is an "Easy" encounter for six level 6 PCs. Even with only five PCs, the encounter would only be "Hard".
But the 10d10 fire breath weapon of the Young Gold Dragon will, on average, one-shot anyone in the party who fails the save.
The party has taken some precautions, stocking up on healing potions, talking about tactics, etc. One even has fire immunity from a (randomly rolled loot reward) Efreeti Chain. Still, I think they are ill-prepared. They are entering the dragon's lair, and soon will be crossing a choke point, a bridge over a long drop, where, logically, the dragon would swoop in and hit them while they are grouped up. If the whole party gets hit with this breath weapon, I don't see how they are going to survive the encounter, let alone win.
So, what do I do? Do I play the dragon stupidly so that they have a chance? Or do I risk the TPK (on what is really a side quest)?
The main questions are why are they there, and why does the Gold dragon want to kill them?
It's entirely likely the dragon humors their visit (invasion?) and asks their reasons before it reacts with the knee-jerk reaction of a red dragon.
Push comes to shove, if you want to avoid the breath as a party wiper, introduce the dragon with a minor event where he uses his breath on someone/something, so he doesn't have it on first round if you want to start in combat (and you roll to refresh as normal). It can still be painful if he rolls a 6 on the second round or something, but they will hopefully escape the certain kill corridor of fire.
So, they originally came looking for some renowned pirate, hoping to collect a bounty on his head. It turned out the pirate was actually a gold dragon. There was a short fight, where the dragon tried to win them over with charms and enchantment and his weakening breath. Failing that, he retreated to his lair.
After trying to fight through his lair, and one party member dying, they came to an agreement with the dragon to leave peacefully with a small token from the dragon's horde. As part of the bargain, he wiped their memories, so they couldn't find his lair again.
However, when returning to the mainland, they raised their dead party member, whose memory wasn't wiped. With raised party member filling them in, they set out back to the dragon's lair with the intent to finish the job.
At this point, he has humored them long enough, and if they sleep within his lair effect he will make it clear that he intends to kill them if they continue (using his ability to communicate through dreams).
I was planning for the first round to target the fire-immune fighter (who was doing the most ranged damage in the last fight) with the breath weapon, so I can tell them how much damage he would have taken, and maybe they surrender or run. But if anyone else is nearby him, they are probably knocked out immediately.
Make them realize that Gold Dragon's aren't evil beings...by introducing a bigger threat were they will need to ally with Goldy to take care of. Flex the dragon's muscles against someone then have it challenge a party member to one v one combat honorably.
It just gives them a moment to ask themselves...are we dumb enough to challenge a dragon to combat on its hometurf with only minimal resistances.
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D&D Beyond FoundersI think you have a lot going on here but will do my best to address it all. Please remember my comments are just my opinion and not something people should take as "rule of law." If you disagree with me, that is totally cool, there is not right way to play D&D - there is simply fun and not fun D&D.
D&D is a game of choices. Characters are presented with choices and there are consequences to their actions/decisions. If the characters have been warned that the dragon is a Lawful Good, and have been pardoned for intruding once before and still try to go after him, they should experience the full wrath of the dragon. The dragon should interpret their intrusion as a threat, an act of violence, and must be stopped. Furthermore what they are doing could be considered by some as an evil act which could affect other parts of your story/campaign.
Now getting the crunch of the game, if you run that encounter on the choke point (which is very smart of the dragon), they do not stand a chance. They will be clumped up, that bridge could light on fire, they could fall off the bridge into a fiery death, etc. The dragon has no reason to land and can simply fly around while the characters panic and it waits for a breath weapon to recharge from the safety of the high ceilings. If you run it where there is not difficult terrain or rather not limited by a small space I think they have a chance. The real choice is do you want to give them a fighting chance or would the dragon defend itself to the best of its ability? That is something you must answer for yourself.
Personally I would roast this party because they are going back to mess with something they know should not be messed with. They were already pardoned once by this dragon, they should not be pardoned again. I might have the dragon shape shift again (to a form they haven't seen before) and give a final warning since it is Lawful Good.
To explain the DMG encounter building math stuff, the reason it is considered "Easy" is because of what some people call the "action economy" of the game. Simply put how many actions do player characters get vs the monsters in an round of combat during an encounter. In this example you have 6 characters vs 1 monster. Basically you have 6 actions vs 1 action. Even if we considered the Multiattack action from monsters and Extra Attack part of the Attack action from Characters, the characters get way more chances to hit that 1 monster. Now lets look at Hit Points. The average HP of a Young Gold Dragon is 178. Lets say for this example that the average HP of a lvl 6 character is 50. So 50 x 6 party members is 300, that is almost double the life of the dragon.
The reason you have to be careful with this math though is that it doesn't always consider terrain or tactics. In this example if you clump everyone on a bridge (which is smart of the dragon and foolish of the players), that one breath weapon will cause some serious damage; the average damage on failed fire breath from this dragon is 55. You could even be a really mean and have the dragon exhale on them from below (flying up) so that people do not see it coming or add some terrain effects where as the dragon swoops down on the bridge it sways and people need to make saves to prevent from falling, or the bridge lights on fire.
Then again the dragon is Lawful Good and he may engage in conversation with a final warning instead of just surprising them with a breath weapon.
You also mentioned that you increased your Dragon's HP and gave him spells. Please be aware that this affects the Challenge Rating. If you increase HP and give it spells that dragon is most certainly not a CR 10 anymore. I would say its closer to 13-14 without even knowing what spells you chose or how much HP you increased it.
This whole encounter could go either way really depending where you run it and how you run it. The fact that the dragon does not have Legendary Resistance or Frightful Presence is the only reason why your party stands a chance. If the party includes characters with Crowd Control Spells the Dragon is at the mercy of its saving throws and could easily get killed in the first round because of the action economy. If you want to add difficulty without feeling like you are being excessively cruel and fight on normal ground you can add a few monsters that work for and protect the dragon. This balances the action economy 6 vs 4 or whatever and suddenly the encounter is more challenging but they players do not feel they are being cheated by being surprised on a wood bridge suspended way over lava.
To be honest this whole situation make me nervous as a DM as the players seem to be walking themselves into a TPK. Remember you are not forcing them to return to fight this dragon, but if they want a fight, that dragon will give them a fight of a lifetime.
I hope you find this helpful and wasn't too wordy or confusing.
Be excellent to each other and Happy Gaming!
I don't know what I'd do, but I don't believe the party deserves any mercy. It's not like they've accidentally stumbled into a powerful monster's lair early in the game. This is entirely player choice and you could argue that you're diminishing player agency by going soft on them.
Ask the players why they want to get slaughtered by the (LG) dragon.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I wish these forums used Markdown. It'd be much easier to split up quotes to respond in pieces.
First off, I just want to say thanks for the advice.
I've decided what I'm going to do: the dragon will call out to the party right before they cross that bridge and make one last plea/threat. He'll use Change Shape as a spider to hide on the bottom of the bridge. Hopefully, the juxtaposition of the dragon's booming voice and the narrow walkway will make them think twice about their plan. The party also has an evil intelligent item with them, and it has been repeatedly trying to get them killed, so I may have it egg them on as some obvious reverse psychology. It's pulling the punch a little, but the dragon (much like myself) doesn't really want to kill all these people. If they do press on, he'll pop up from under the bridge and light them up, and likely win the battle.
Ideally, the fire-immune fighter or the fire-resistant Tiefling will press across first, take the opening breath weapon alone so I can telegraph the potential damage, and the party can adjust accordingly.
Some clarification/correction on some details of the fight, if you are curious.
The bridge they are about to cross is stone, so they don't have to worry about it burning. It's actually the Cosmic Hallway (area 19) in the Dungeon of Xonthal's Tower in the Rise of Tiamat. I took the dungeon and reskinned it slightly for this adventure.
As for the modified dragon's CR, I figure it is between CR 10 (Young Gold Dragon - Easy) and CR 17 (Adult Gold Dragon - Hard). That's quite the spread, but I figure it's on the lower end. Basically, it's a Young Gold Dragon except for the following.
He is Huge instead of Large, so it has d12 hit dice instead of d10, raising its average HP from 178 to 204. This still falls around the CR 10 area.
He has the spell list from the Enchanter. This was added as his pirate persona had a reputation for convincing people to hand over their ships without a fight. He'll likely start with Haste on himself, so that he can drop Change Shape and then use his Breath Weapon in the same opening turn. Other than that, I don't expect he'll cast any spells, as his turns will be better spent doing dragon stuff. I'd estimate this increases his CR by a point.
He has the Legendary Actions, Legendary Resistances, and Change Shape of the Adult Gold Dragon. This certainly bumps CR a couple points.
In all, without wanting to do all of the calculations, I'd estimate him at a CR 13, which is Medium for this party. So, your more-or-less blind guess lines up pretty dang well. Kudos. With all the strategic advantage he has, I'll probably award XP as a CR 15, if they somehow win.
Anyway, yeah, it seems foolhardy of them. The thing that's making me more nervous now is that we'll be on a hiatus until the new year. So if we go two months without playing, and then the first session back is a TPK, that's going to be a serious letdown.
Ah, but you can do so already.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
> Ah, but you can do so already.
TIL. *EDIT:* Apparently not for quotes. *EDIT2:* Or bold. Is there some Markdown setting I need to enable?
> Note limitation on haste extra action. Always note limitation on haste extra action.
Whoops. I always forget that. I need to rethink the plan a bit, then.