I created a changeling rogue character with a charlatan background, and I was wondering if a disguise kit would be of any use for a changeling. I originally thought it was redundant since changelings can turn into other people, but then I started thinking that it might be useful since they can't turn into someone they've never seen before.
In the right campaign, a changeling morphing into someone and then using the disguise kit to make it look like that person is trying to impersonate someone else could be a lot of fun
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes. The disguise kit covers clothing and props too, and having the prof can be helpful even with the ability to change your physical appearance.
The description of the Disguise Kit is really vague. It just says that it comes with "a few" pieces of clothing, so it's mostly up to the DM whether that means you have 3 premade costumes ready, or if it's functionally an "infinite" costume bag that you just have to roll high enough on your check to have a useable outfit.
Yes. The disguise kit covers clothing and props too, and having the prof can be helpful even with the ability to change your physical appearance.
The description of the Disguise Kit is really vague. It just says that it comes with "a few" pieces of clothing, so it's mostly up to the DM whether that means you have 3 premade costumes ready, or if it's functionally an "infinite" costume bag that you just have to roll high enough on your check to have a useable outfit.
It is incredibly useful, which in my opinion is a bit of a problem and underscores why the changeling species is kind of a waste of time. Great concept but underpowered execution.
It is incredibly useful, which in my opinion is a bit of a problem and underscores why the changeling species is kind of a waste of time. Great concept but underpowered execution.
Disguise Self is a second level spell. Essentially making it an at-will racial feature could be a bit much, even if you put it at level 5 or something. And limited use wouldn't have been the right Changeling vibe. Changing their physical appearance at will but not outfits is a good compromise.
It is incredibly useful, which in my opinion is a bit of a problem and underscores why the changeling species is kind of a waste of time. Great concept but underpowered execution.
Disguise Self is a second level spell. Essentially making it an at-will racial feature could be a bit much, even if you put it at level 5 or something. And limited use wouldn't have been the right Changeling vibe. Changing their physical appearance at will but not outfits is a good compromise.
Agreed
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As someone who just finished a years-long campaign with one player a Changeling... I'm pretty grateful that the player went for Changeling mostly for story reasons and didn't really build a min-maxed character that would take advantage of that, although it did have some fun interactions with Trickery cleric, since the duplicate also looks like whatever the Changeling turned herself into. But yeah... Changeling is one of those races that's basically broken, since it has no limitation on shape shifting... like you can do it as many times as you want in a game day, with the only downside being that your clothes doesn't change with you. lol I remember another player went out of their way to get Glamoured Studded Leather Armor for the Changeling, and she still usually forgot to use it and just focused on her Cleric abilities to solve problems.
It is incredibly useful, which in my opinion is a bit of a problem and underscores why the changeling species is kind of a waste of time. Great concept but underpowered execution.
Disguise Self is a second level spell. Essentially making it an at-will racial feature could be a bit much, even if you put it at level 5 or something. And limited use wouldn't have been the right Changeling vibe. Changing their physical appearance at will but not outfits is a good compromise.
I don't disagree with anything you said except maybe that it was a good compromise. I think it is more accurate to say it is the best compromise they could come up with within the boundaries of the game. The feature itself has almost no utility past level 2 when DS becomes available (and someone in the party will have it almost every time) and it becomes more or less a party gag. I would think the need to use it multiple times a day would be few and far between and the specific restrictions, while boosted since MotM, are still problematic when you come across creatures with additional limbs, like those who have wings. I do not consider this to have equivalent weight to any other species at any level aside from maybe a level 1 one shot.
It is incredibly useful, which in my opinion is a bit of a problem and underscores why the changeling species is kind of a waste of time. Great concept but underpowered execution.
Disguise Self is a second level spell. Essentially making it an at-will racial feature could be a bit much, even if you put it at level 5 or something. And limited use wouldn't have been the right Changeling vibe. Changing their physical appearance at will but not outfits is a good compromise.
I don't disagree with anything you said except maybe that it was a good compromise. I think it is more accurate to say it is the best compromise they could come up with within the boundaries of the game. The feature itself has almost no utility past level 2 when DS becomes available (and someone in the party will have it almost every time) and it becomes more or less a party gag. I would think the need to use it multiple times a day would be few and far between and the specific restrictions, while boosted since MotM, are still problematic when you come across creatures with additional limbs, like those who have wings. I do not consider this to have equivalent weight to any other species at any level aside from maybe a level 1 one shot.
DS can't be cast as a ritual and requires you to be a caster. Having it as a race feature hardly becomes irrelevant when you can take the spell (also, I was wrong about the level, it's 1st, but you still don't see any of those as at-will race casts iirc).
It is incredibly useful, which in my opinion is a bit of a problem and underscores why the changeling species is kind of a waste of time. Great concept but underpowered execution.
Disguise Self is a second level spell. Essentially making it an at-will racial feature could be a bit much, even if you put it at level 5 or something. And limited use wouldn't have been the right Changeling vibe. Changing their physical appearance at will but not outfits is a good compromise.
I don't disagree with anything you said except maybe that it was a good compromise. I think it is more accurate to say it is the best compromise they could come up with within the boundaries of the game. The feature itself has almost no utility past level 2 when DS becomes available (and someone in the party will have it almost every time) and it becomes more or less a party gag. I would think the need to use it multiple times a day would be few and far between and the specific restrictions, while boosted since MotM, are still problematic when you come across creatures with additional limbs, like those who have wings. I do not consider this to have equivalent weight to any other species at any level aside from maybe a level 1 one shot.
DS can't be cast as a ritual and requires you to be a caster. Having it as a race feature hardly becomes irrelevant when you can take the spell (also, I was wrong about the level, it's 1st, but you still don't see any of those as at-will race casts iirc).
Respectfully, I don't really see these as limitations that are strong enough to give changelings any real value over Disguise Self and/or a well employed disguise kit. If you are a rogue with no intention to subclass into AT I guess, but again, just about any caster will have DS - someone in the party almost always has it. What caster is going to be tightfisted with a level 1 spell slot? I have literally never seen a full caster worry about a level 1 spell slot unless they were already put through the wringer and if that is happening, the ship for subterfuge has usually sailed. Almost all the games I have ever played have been at levels 1-10, where level 1 spell slots are more valuable and I play mostly with min/maxers. No one wrings their hands over a level 1 spell slot when initiating an encounter. Even a completely socially-focused campaign would have few situations where someone will need to spam Shapechanger and I would guarantee that there would almost never be an encounter in place where that would be necessary for success.
Buffing Shapechanger probably is not possible without unbalancing the game, I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean what they do have is close in value to easily accessible in-game alternatives or stands on equal footing with other species features. A Hat of Disguise accomplishes almost the very same thing with the exception of major height differences, which is an item that could be found or purchased as low as level 1 by the DMG's recommendation and if a campaign will have a need for spammed DS, I can say with confidence this item has a decent chance of featuring in it.
While a single use of Disguise Self isn't going to cost much, it only lasts an hour. Good for a short term disguise, less good for a fluid character appearance. And while a Hat of Disguise is accessible, it also takes up an attunement slot, so depending on the exact accessibility of magic items it easily hits the areas of not worth buying if access to magic items will be scarce/expensive or not worth the attunement slot if you've got a bunch of other items competing for those three slots, especially if you're a caster and need a slot just for your +1 item. Plus the idea that people can always make space for it assumes they don't have other utility/fluff picks they want. The point of Shapechange is that it's an alternative to having to use harder resources like spells or magic items.
While a single use of Disguise Self isn't going to cost much, it only lasts an hour. Good for a short term disguise, less good for a fluid character appearance. And while a Hat of Disguise is accessible, it also takes up an attunement slot, so depending on the exact accessibility of magic items it easily hits the areas of not worth buying if access to magic items will be scarce/expensive or not worth the attunement slot if you've got a bunch of other items competing for those three slots, especially if you're a caster and need a slot just for your +1 item. Plus the idea that people can always make space for it assumes they don't have other utility/fluff picks they want. The point of Shapechange is that it's an alternative to having to use harder resources like spells or magic items.
The more we have to stretch the hypothetical scenario in order to make Shapechanger suddenly valuable and worth something like say, flight or temporary hit points, the more situational and niche the feature becomes, which ironically makes it less useful overall given the rarity of those scenarios.
An attunement slot at low levels is not a big deal. You get three and a full party that also each has three. How often have you had to wrestle with the problem of too many high-value items that require attunement at level 5 that can't be lent to another member of the party? If it ever really is a problem, you can always just take a short rest and temporarily swap one out anyway, but again, how often will it really come down to that at low levels?
I am not arguing what the point of Shapechanger is. I am arguing whether it is worthwhile. I have yet to see an example given that is both reasonably common to get decent mileage out of the feature and also inconvenient enough that being a changeling is the best solution. When is it convenient to get extra hit points, or have a feat, or being able to heal while attacking, or being able to cast as a reaction to being attacked? Almost always to all of the above, along with many other traits. A rogue with a high charisma and proficiency with a disguise kit, without even being a caster, can pull off what a changeling might be able to do while disguised as someone specific, and definitely can do just as well as a changeling while doing something less specific. A random city guard impersonation would hold up to anything but the most intense of scrutiny with a disguise kit, even at low levels when ability checks are low. An impersonation of a specific person likely would raise the DC but Shapechanger only helps visually and does not work on gear, so you literally would have to doff armor to impersonate someone without. Meanwhile DS simply makes armor not visible.
I am saying all this as someone who loves changelings conceptually. I grew up as a Marvel fan and Mystique was one of both my favorite heroes and villains depending on the era. If impersonation is a common thing in a campaign, a hat of disguise or even just the spell DS are going to be more useful and convenient most of the time. That alone makes most other species a far better option most of the time and thus supports my stance that being a changeling is kind of a waste of time for anything other than the personal satisfaction of playing a species that can change shape at will.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
just about any caster will have DS - someone in the party almost always has it
You keep saying this, and I can assure you, Disguise Self is not a universal choice
Thankfully I had the foresight to avoid saying that it is.
You’ve still strongly implied that players will regularly and easily make room for it.
Yes, because that is my experience with players that like to have solutions available to address a variety of problems. Even if that is not the case though and there is a party that would refuse to take Disguise Self, a disguise kit, or a hat of disguise because... reasons, why would such a party be interested or benefit from having a changeling? It sounds to me that such a party would not have much interest in impersonations, making it little more than a party gag. So we circle back to my original point; such a party likely is going to find little value in changeling and likely opt for species with traits that would address other interests.
I created a changeling rogue character with a charlatan background, and I was wondering if a disguise kit would be of any use for a changeling. I originally thought it was redundant since changelings can turn into other people, but then I started thinking that it might be useful since they can't turn into someone they've never seen before.
Yes. The disguise kit covers clothing and props too, and having the prof can be helpful even with the ability to change your physical appearance.
In the right campaign, a changeling morphing into someone and then using the disguise kit to make it look like that person is trying to impersonate someone else could be a lot of fun
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The description of the Disguise Kit is really vague. It just says that it comes with "a few" pieces of clothing, so it's mostly up to the DM whether that means you have 3 premade costumes ready, or if it's functionally an "infinite" costume bag that you just have to roll high enough on your check to have a useable outfit.
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XGtE gives some guidelines on that.
Worth also noting that the changeling can use the disguise kit on someone else, so that they can sneak into somewhere together!
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It is incredibly useful, which in my opinion is a bit of a problem and underscores why the changeling species is kind of a waste of time. Great concept but underpowered execution.
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Disguise Self is a second level spell. Essentially making it an at-will racial feature could be a bit much, even if you put it at level 5 or something. And limited use wouldn't have been the right Changeling vibe. Changing their physical appearance at will but not outfits is a good compromise.
Agreed
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She/They pronouns
The Goddess of the Strings (thanks for the title Drummer!)
As someone who just finished a years-long campaign with one player a Changeling... I'm pretty grateful that the player went for Changeling mostly for story reasons and didn't really build a min-maxed character that would take advantage of that, although it did have some fun interactions with Trickery cleric, since the duplicate also looks like whatever the Changeling turned herself into. But yeah... Changeling is one of those races that's basically broken, since it has no limitation on shape shifting... like you can do it as many times as you want in a game day, with the only downside being that your clothes doesn't change with you. lol I remember another player went out of their way to get Glamoured Studded Leather Armor for the Changeling, and she still usually forgot to use it and just focused on her Cleric abilities to solve problems.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I don't disagree with anything you said except maybe that it was a good compromise. I think it is more accurate to say it is the best compromise they could come up with within the boundaries of the game. The feature itself has almost no utility past level 2 when DS becomes available (and someone in the party will have it almost every time) and it becomes more or less a party gag. I would think the need to use it multiple times a day would be few and far between and the specific restrictions, while boosted since MotM, are still problematic when you come across creatures with additional limbs, like those who have wings. I do not consider this to have equivalent weight to any other species at any level aside from maybe a level 1 one shot.
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DS can't be cast as a ritual and requires you to be a caster. Having it as a race feature hardly becomes irrelevant when you can take the spell (also, I was wrong about the level, it's 1st, but you still don't see any of those as at-will race casts iirc).
Respectfully, I don't really see these as limitations that are strong enough to give changelings any real value over Disguise Self and/or a well employed disguise kit. If you are a rogue with no intention to subclass into AT I guess, but again, just about any caster will have DS - someone in the party almost always has it. What caster is going to be tightfisted with a level 1 spell slot? I have literally never seen a full caster worry about a level 1 spell slot unless they were already put through the wringer and if that is happening, the ship for subterfuge has usually sailed. Almost all the games I have ever played have been at levels 1-10, where level 1 spell slots are more valuable and I play mostly with min/maxers. No one wrings their hands over a level 1 spell slot when initiating an encounter. Even a completely socially-focused campaign would have few situations where someone will need to spam Shapechanger and I would guarantee that there would almost never be an encounter in place where that would be necessary for success.
Buffing Shapechanger probably is not possible without unbalancing the game, I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean what they do have is close in value to easily accessible in-game alternatives or stands on equal footing with other species features. A Hat of Disguise accomplishes almost the very same thing with the exception of major height differences, which is an item that could be found or purchased as low as level 1 by the DMG's recommendation and if a campaign will have a need for spammed DS, I can say with confidence this item has a decent chance of featuring in it.
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While a single use of Disguise Self isn't going to cost much, it only lasts an hour. Good for a short term disguise, less good for a fluid character appearance. And while a Hat of Disguise is accessible, it also takes up an attunement slot, so depending on the exact accessibility of magic items it easily hits the areas of not worth buying if access to magic items will be scarce/expensive or not worth the attunement slot if you've got a bunch of other items competing for those three slots, especially if you're a caster and need a slot just for your +1 item. Plus the idea that people can always make space for it assumes they don't have other utility/fluff picks they want. The point of Shapechange is that it's an alternative to having to use harder resources like spells or magic items.
The more we have to stretch the hypothetical scenario in order to make Shapechanger suddenly valuable and worth something like say, flight or temporary hit points, the more situational and niche the feature becomes, which ironically makes it less useful overall given the rarity of those scenarios.
An attunement slot at low levels is not a big deal. You get three and a full party that also each has three. How often have you had to wrestle with the problem of too many high-value items that require attunement at level 5 that can't be lent to another member of the party? If it ever really is a problem, you can always just take a short rest and temporarily swap one out anyway, but again, how often will it really come down to that at low levels?
I am not arguing what the point of Shapechanger is. I am arguing whether it is worthwhile. I have yet to see an example given that is both reasonably common to get decent mileage out of the feature and also inconvenient enough that being a changeling is the best solution. When is it convenient to get extra hit points, or have a feat, or being able to heal while attacking, or being able to cast as a reaction to being attacked? Almost always to all of the above, along with many other traits. A rogue with a high charisma and proficiency with a disguise kit, without even being a caster, can pull off what a changeling might be able to do while disguised as someone specific, and definitely can do just as well as a changeling while doing something less specific. A random city guard impersonation would hold up to anything but the most intense of scrutiny with a disguise kit, even at low levels when ability checks are low. An impersonation of a specific person likely would raise the DC but Shapechanger only helps visually and does not work on gear, so you literally would have to doff armor to impersonate someone without. Meanwhile DS simply makes armor not visible.
I am saying all this as someone who loves changelings conceptually. I grew up as a Marvel fan and Mystique was one of both my favorite heroes and villains depending on the era. If impersonation is a common thing in a campaign, a hat of disguise or even just the spell DS are going to be more useful and convenient most of the time. That alone makes most other species a far better option most of the time and thus supports my stance that being a changeling is kind of a waste of time for anything other than the personal satisfaction of playing a species that can change shape at will.
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You keep saying this, and I can assure you, Disguise Self is not a universal choice
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thankfully I had the foresight to avoid saying that it is.
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You’ve still strongly implied that players will regularly and easily make room for it.
Yes, because that is my experience with players that like to have solutions available to address a variety of problems. Even if that is not the case though and there is a party that would refuse to take Disguise Self, a disguise kit, or a hat of disguise because... reasons, why would such a party be interested or benefit from having a changeling? It sounds to me that such a party would not have much interest in impersonations, making it little more than a party gag. So we circle back to my original point; such a party likely is going to find little value in changeling and likely opt for species with traits that would address other interests.
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