So a party of 5 level 3 characters are confronted in a village by a dozen leather clad, sword wielding bravos. They seem confident. Most are between twenty and thirty years of age. Several have shields. One has a metal helm.
As a player, how do you view the situation?
Please don't ask me for further information, but feel free to note any questions you might have for the DM.
The party composition might be a factor, but I'd say it sure is a kind of scary setup to face, as the party is effectively outnumbered 2+ to 1 and the enemies seems sufficiently prepared.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
What LeK brings up is important, party comp can really affect how serious a situation can become. A well spread party comp, or a comp that has good synergy can make this a cake walk. If you have intelligent players, and players that work together, I see the challenge being hard rather than deadly.
The other side of this coin is your modus operandi. If you play them as a farmer's militia, tactics are basic, command is loose, and morale is shaky, then it'll be an easier fight. If you treat it more like a militia, then the challenge goes up. Better tactics, smoother communication, training, and organization will help make them a more formidable opponent. If you treat them like a military regiment, with combat experience, and a formal leader, then this goes back up toward a deadly encounter.
Answering the question:
As a DM, I see it as potentially being a deadly encounter.
In hindsight, I wonder if it might not have been better for me not to state a level for the characters....it encouraged both of you to think in mechanical terms.
The characters are outnumbered by 2+ to 1 as Lek correctly points out. All other things being equal, the characters are going to get pasted. What might cause the PCs/players to think they can win? Insanity. Over-confidence. Previous experience. Meta-gaming.
But all other things are never equal.
As players, what drives our decision to enter/avoid combat? Do we ever make informed decisions, or are we just hoping that the GM doesn't stiff us?
As a DM, what clues should you drop so that players can be better informed, without resorting to saying "This is a (medium) encounter"? (Which it might not be, a couple of those guys might be veterans of some terrible and protracted war. Or not. Perhaps they all have the stats for bandits, in which case the PCs will barely work up a sweat.)
Is there an unwritten (maybe unspoken) contract at your table between DM and players?
Tactical question, as tactics are definitely a weak point for me: With no missile weapons, facing a party that probably has ranged attacks, why is an all out attack not the best option? (Assuming the 12 can surround the 5, making area effect spells less effective.) I honestly can't see any clever moves available to the bravos.
John Shannow or Waylander would just shoot the leader in the face and expect the others to run away....how often does that work after the DM has spent hours planning,writing and calculating the CR of an encounter? Do the NPCs just think - That was impressive, shame they can't do it again until they have at least a short rest?
Do higher level characters/npcs give off an aura of power?
I guess I'm trying to see where fantasy crosses into fantastical and then plain unbelievable.
I believe the bottom line of any encounter is: would fight these guys potentially help us to further the plot and advance in the story?
If they are a "random" gang of bandits, the easiest choice is to just avoid the fight, unless the party is inclined to kill everything that moves and is even mildly threatening; If they are part of the band the party is investigating (just throwing ideas around here) found in a random spot on the map they might think a bit more on it: might they have valuable information we can use to further our investigation? do we already have enough info? do we still want to cut down their numbers at any occasion? If they are the guards to the bandits hideout: do we have a secondary way in we can use?
There a lot of factors that contribute in the party decision to go or not into a fight, and they are all due to convenience, imho.
... again unless they are murder-hobos, in which case they will attack whatever you throw at them for the sole pleasure of killing stuff.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Running the math through an encounter calculator, a party of five level 3 characters versus twelve CR 1/8 Bandits works out to a Medium difficulty encounter. Things would have to go really off the rails for such an encounter to become Deadly.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
As you head through the woods you see the tracks of a large humanoid creature. You recall from earlier that you had witnessed the giant two-headed creature wielding a tree trunk sized club. There are signs of saplings being trampled down, much similar to how dandelions are when you walk through a field, as well as some decent sized animal carcasses. Most of these dead animals have a limb which looks to have been bitten or gnawed off and then carelessly tossed aside like so much trash. You hear, coming from the direction you're headed, the heavy plodding of feet, and the sound of breaking wood.
**players have hidden in the trees**
As the creature approaches where you've hidden you see one of the heads sniffing the air, the other head is chewing on what looks to be the leg of a deer. About 20 feet in front of you the creature stops, the sniffing head looks in your general direction. "I smell food, I seen dem go dis way" one head starts speaking. "I wan crush them udder ones, them scaley ones. They runned 'way I kills them". The two heads begin to bicker over what to do.
Part 2: The follow through
**players discuss attacking or staying hidden**
As the two heads continue to argue you watch one of the massive arms reach out and grab a tree. It's hands, almost twice the size of your head, wrap a little over half-way around the tree and you hear a faint cracking sound. The legs of the creature seem to be controlled by the other head as the body starts to walk the opposite direction of the tree being gripped. You watch as the feet dig in to the ground causing ruts almost immediately. The muscles on the arm holding the tree begin to buldge and you watch as the fingertips start to pierce the bark of the tree, you can see some of the roots starting to pop out of the ground. The two heads are still arguing about what to do, find and eat you all, or find and kill the others.
**players discuss how to drive the creature away, one player still wants to fight
Part 3: Finish them
You see the creature bend down, digging their feet into the ground, pits almost 4 inches deep start to form as the creature tries to pull the arm off the tree. The free arm swinging with the force of an avalanche onto the one gripping the tree. The arm gripping the tree twitches with each blow, the roots popping like bubble wrap as the tree is starting to be pulled from the ground. Splinters are spraying over the area as pieces of the tree are starting to shatter with the grip of the creature. Their argument getting louder and more aggressive. It's only a matter of time til one head wins the argument.
*players cast a spell to drive the creature off**
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This is a true event in the campaign I am running. 3 lvl 5 characters, Rogue, Sorc, Barb watching an Ettin throw a temper tantrum. They could have beaten the creature, and with how well my group works together, they'd have done so with little trouble. Because of how I painted the scene, they felt there was no chance of coming away from this unless they had the help of their other 3 party members.
I have found that if you give them enough of a description, with the use of colorful analogies, similes, and metaphors, they'll pick up on the cues. You have to be heavy handed with your words too, lay on the dramatic effect as thick as possible. Players are ignorant, they are ignorant because they only know what we DMs tell them. So if we don't lay it on thick, they'll miss it, it's natural. The more danger you add to your description, broken stones, large bones the size of SUVs, scratches in the side of mountains, acid bleached sand, the more they'll have to consider why. Then you give them a display, the crushed body of a manticore in the creatures mouth, a diamond melting as the droplet of saliva hits it, the champion of the king's army is destroyed in one round of combat after dealing a critical, thunderous smite, holy avenger strike.
And yes, in many anime, and some cinema movies, the "aura of death" or "killing intent" of a creature is shown to have an effect on the protagonist. As a DM you can narrate that with a minor mechanical effect. It's one of those times where you can take agency away from a player, for the briefest of instances, to drive a point home.
As to the original question, at times I'm brought back to something said in Return of the King (I believe so anyway). I can't remember which character said it, but the context was being massively outnumbered while facing down the host at the gates of Mordor. And I believe the quote was something akin to, "There are those among us equal to 100 enemies (or maybe even 1000 lol).
The point being this: PCs/Adventurers at these levels are still probably fighting at a 2:1 or even 3:1 advantage against random bravos. Obviously if the bravos are of an equivalent level they would be massive favorites, but then then question becomes academic. 5 vs 12 with a level playing field favors the 12. 5 level 3's against 12 level 1 NPCs seems heavily favored to the PC's. Obviously none of what I sad addresses the motivation to fight or not fight. But given the little you mentioned in the first post, let's look at it like this.
A group of 5 level 3 adventurers wander into a lightly populated village that's peripherally ruled by a gang of thugs. In a simple village a group of 12 seems more than capable of keeping regular folks in hand. As the PC's enter a shrill whistle breaks the air and within moments the full compliment is spread before them, wearing random leather armor; some have shields and 1 a helmet. The leader addresses the PC's, "Welcome to Shit's Creek. Truly sorry for the inconvenience, but all who enter Shit's Creek have to give up half their coin to guarantee safe passage and help our village prosper. Failure to comply...well that's not a good idea. What say you?"
Your fighter bristles at the blatant threat, and your rogue is already contemplating how to rob these would-be extortionists from what they've previously taken, but your level-headed bard places a restraining hand on the dwarf fighter's chain armor and steps forward with a smile. "My good man, we're but humble travelers passing through. We have little coin to speak of, but in deference to the prosperity of this fine village I'm sure we can pool together a few silver to aid the cause." (Persuasion check, but ultimately fails as the leader isn't interested in being sweet-talked, and feels like there's obviously more than a few silver). The leader responds, "I really have to stop asking these rhetorical questions, as simpletons such as yourself feel like you have a choice in the matter. For trying to pull the wool over my eyes I think instead we'll be taking all your coin, and I suppose you can thank me after for sparing your lives."
The bard shakes his head sadly, seemingly contrite for overstepping. "I really would love to comply, but you see Grimshackle holds onto our coin, kind of like a bank, and he rarely allows anyone to withdraw." The stout dwarf steps forward, grinning menacingly, and in a deep brogue says, "Aye, but I happily take deposits." Grimshackle takes a menacing step forward while his companions fan out behind him. And...roll initiative :D
In hindsight, I wonder if it might not have been better for me not to state a level for the characters....it encouraged both of you to think in mechanical terms.
"Is this a deadly encounter" is a mechanical question though.
As a DM, what clues should you drop so that players can be better informed, without resorting to saying "This is a (medium) encounter"?
I describe the enemy's appearance and emphasize parts of it that allow a player to judge the situation. If an NPC has 18 strength, that should be reflected in their appearance. If the town guard has old, rusted, or worn weapons that suggests they're poor and inexperienced. If the enemies have several scars and start giving each other subtle hand signals before the fight breaks out, that suggests they have experience and a strategy. Street thugs and bandits will have a different disposition from soldiers and war veterans. Powerful individuals (e.g. gladiators, veterans, champions) will likely have some notoriety and possibly 1 or 2 magical items that clues players in to their exceptional capabilities.
Conflating "should we engage" with "can we win this" is a false dichotomy though. Neither side is forced to fight to the death and players don't need to know if they're going to win or not before engaging. They can decide to escape if it becomes obvious they're out of their depth (and not every encounter needs to be winnable.) Appearances can be deceiving (especially when illusion and transmutation magic are a possibility) and a weak-looking old man might actually be a 15th level monk with Timeless Body.
"Should we engage" is also a function of the story genre and past encounters. If your players routinely get thrashed, they'll learn to treat every encounter with extreme caution regardless of what they're up against. If they regularly charge in guns blazing and win, they'll learn to expect that outcome in the future too. The first encounters of an adventure should set the tone for what players can expect.
My take on that encounter is the word "bravos" in your description. That implies they're more than just normal, every day townsfolk who formed a militia. That implies that they're thugs, bandits, bullies, etc. which are more of a challenge for a group of PC's who they have outnumbered 2:1 than the normal local militia made up of commoners with cheap weapons would make.
If I was one of the players, I'd assume that we could take them but that it would be a fight and we'd have to fight intelligently and if we didn't work together and cooperate, the bravos would win.
Tactical question, as tactics are definitely a weak point for me: With no missile weapons, facing a party that probably has ranged attacks, why is an all out attack not the best option? (Assuming the 12 can surround the 5, making area effect spells less effective.) I honestly can't see any clever moves available to the bravos.
If an enemy can successfully utilize the ambush rules and force the player characters to be surprised for the first round of combat, that would be tactically superior to a head-on "all out attack." Such a maneuver can be achieved if say, 6 of the bravos confront the PCs initially, and then the other 6 attempt to ambush from a concealed location. Also, if the bravos have to move a long distance, or through difficult terrain, to reach the PCs (who might be using missile weapons to harry them), they would be wise to take the dodge action and use cover as they go.
Easiest way I've found to become tactical when dealing with D&D is to ask the question "What would I do to not die?"
Goblins aren't the most intelligent creatures, running head long into combat, smashing against the heroes like water against the rocks.
That is all wrong! Goblins have a 10 INT, that is the equivalent of a High School diploma, potentially as far as Trade School or 1st year College. That said, they'll figure out things like "Hey dem glowy hands mean fire!" or "Dat one touches friends and they start to fight again." even "Ouch, swords hurt". Now they do have am 8 WIS, which means they'll probably not come up with a solution quickly. That doesn't mean they'll stand there and let the same thing happen without changing things up.
So, how do I play a creature that's kinda smart, has limited tactical faculties, lives to revel in the suffering of others, and has a party of adventurers shooting spells, arrows and waving swords around at them. I run away, sneak around in the cave systems I helped make, and I use hit and run techniques. That's what I'd do in real life, why not use those thoughts in game?
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Tactical approach doesn't necessarily mean having this chess like understanding of how your combat will play out. Instead, just look at the resources at your disposal, and ask how you might make it harder for the Fighter to hit you, how you might flank the Wizard, how you'd stop the Rogue from sneaking up on you. Then you translate that into the creatures, in this case Bravos, and ask one last question. How ready are they do die? I know I'm not ready to give my life for something as mundane as a few copper, however if my family were at stake...I'll risk life an limb for them.
"Easiest way I've found to become tactical when dealing with D&D is to ask the question "What would I do to not die?" Goblins aren't the most intelligent creatures, running head long into combat, smashing against the heroes like water against the rocks. That is all wrong!"
Agreed. Totally. 100%
But if the bravos/goblins have no ranged options, apart from running away, what options do they really have other than to swarm the PCs? At least the goblins can take a bonus action to hide - the bravos probably haven't even got that.
And I pity the goblins facing a balanced squad of murder-ho....sorry adventurers:
how you might make it harder for the Fighter to hit you : Run away or use the dodge action and hope your mate kills the fighter.
how you might flank* the Wizard: Swarm him!
how you'd stop the Rogue from sneaking up on you : Close ranks.
*If this is 5th Edition, there's a good chance you can't.
But that's a sidetrack. The real reason behind the initial post was me wondering what factors PLAYERS use to decide if they are facing a murderously difficult fight when presented with the information given. How much of the decision is based on meta-gaming? When you are faced with an Ogre or a manticore or a grown white dragon, there is a fairly good chance that it is a CR 2/3/13 encounter. But humanoids, especially PC race humanoids (which seems to be just about all of them!) can vary from a farmer knackered after a days work to Rand Al'Thor (who once was a farmer knackered after dragging a near corpse into town.)
MMOs have a nasty habit of just levelling the same old monsters - I gave up with Everquest 2 the day I got a level 80 quest to kill 10 snakes. Level 80 snakes, of course! Surrrounded by level 80 butterflies probably! Do the Challenge Ratings of encounters always level up with the players?
But even he designs encounters based on the characters and not the world.
I'm not looking for advice, but opinions, thoughts, and experiences. (Maybe even anecdotes if they are interesting.) Except about the poor bravos without a ranged option - I really would like to see a clever tactic for them.
Rangeless creatures vs balanced team, use the terrain to your advantage. This is a village, they can't target you if you're not visible, run through houses, run behind houses, grab hostages. Makeshift tools to create cover, wagons, hay bails, upturned troughs, push a wagon at the party like a battering ram. The idea is to disrupt the enemy, separate them, and pick them off one at a time, there is strength in numbers.
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Opinions on how to create challenge that scales with the players:
-Choose to shut down at least one mechanic that the player relies on during the "cinematic" fights.
Rogue likes to use an opening ranged sneak attack from the shadows: wall of air surrounding the boss at the start of combat.
Barbarian rages, has totem of the bear, and a great axe, boss is an illithid who's cast greater invisibility and has a host of intellect devourers as pets.
Sorc likes to hang back and lob nukes, the walls are closing in with deadly poisoned spikes, the ground has an electrical pulse that causes a round of paralysis.
-Inflate numbers, simple, effective, boring.
-Use those video game, movie, book, etc. references to create a better, more dangerous version.
I re-skinned a fight from early WoW to challenge my players, none of them remembered the fight. While I didn't generate a TPK, for the first time I had half the party scrambling to defeat the boss with almost no resources, 2 were unconscious, and one was bent on winning no matter what. They started the fight at full health and with all of their spells, abilities, etc. and they were healed to full twice for free.
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I'm the last person you want to ask about how a player decides to fight. I'm a DM before I'm a player, I've spent more time behind the screen than playing. The last 3 times I had a chance to play the game I made my decision to fight based on RP. I played a Drow ranger who spent most of his time hunting a group of people, combat was just part of life to him. I then played the wizard prefab from LMoP, but for him I chose to rp him as a man who despised killing, combat to him was forced. I'm now playing CoS and my character is a Hunter/Swashbuckler, he fights to protect, otherwise he talks his way out of fights.
So a party of 5 level 3 characters are confronted in a village by a dozen leather clad, sword wielding bravos. They seem confident. Most are between twenty and thirty years of age. Several have shields. One has a metal helm.
As a player, how do you view the situation?
Please don't ask me for further information, but feel free to note any questions you might have for the DM.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
The party composition might be a factor, but I'd say it sure is a kind of scary setup to face, as the party is effectively outnumbered 2+ to 1 and the enemies seems sufficiently prepared.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
What LeK brings up is important, party comp can really affect how serious a situation can become. A well spread party comp, or a comp that has good synergy can make this a cake walk. If you have intelligent players, and players that work together, I see the challenge being hard rather than deadly.
The other side of this coin is your modus operandi. If you play them as a farmer's militia, tactics are basic, command is loose, and morale is shaky, then it'll be an easier fight. If you treat it more like a militia, then the challenge goes up. Better tactics, smoother communication, training, and organization will help make them a more formidable opponent. If you treat them like a military regiment, with combat experience, and a formal leader, then this goes back up toward a deadly encounter.
Answering the question:
As a DM, I see it as potentially being a deadly encounter.
As a Player, I'd lean more toward no.
In hindsight, I wonder if it might not have been better for me not to state a level for the characters....it encouraged both of you to think in mechanical terms.
The characters are outnumbered by 2+ to 1 as Lek correctly points out. All other things being equal, the characters are going to get pasted.
What might cause the PCs/players to think they can win?
Insanity. Over-confidence. Previous experience. Meta-gaming.
But all other things are never equal.
As players, what drives our decision to enter/avoid combat?
Do we ever make informed decisions, or are we just hoping that the GM doesn't stiff us?
As a DM, what clues should you drop so that players can be better informed, without resorting to saying "This is a (medium) encounter"? (Which it might not be, a couple of those guys might be veterans of some terrible and protracted war. Or not. Perhaps they all have the stats for bandits, in which case the PCs will barely work up a sweat.)
Is there an unwritten (maybe unspoken) contract at your table between DM and players?
Tactical question, as tactics are definitely a weak point for me: With no missile weapons, facing a party that probably has ranged attacks, why is an all out attack not the best option? (Assuming the 12 can surround the 5, making area effect spells less effective.) I honestly can't see any clever moves available to the bravos.
John Shannow or Waylander would just shoot the leader in the face and expect the others to run away....how often does that work after the DM has spent hours planning,writing and calculating the CR of an encounter? Do the NPCs just think - That was impressive, shame they can't do it again until they have at least a short rest?
Do higher level characters/npcs give off an aura of power?
I guess I'm trying to see where fantasy crosses into fantastical and then plain unbelievable.
Thanks for the replies so far.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
I believe the bottom line of any encounter is: would fight these guys potentially help us to further the plot and advance in the story?
If they are a "random" gang of bandits, the easiest choice is to just avoid the fight, unless the party is inclined to kill everything that moves and is even mildly threatening;
If they are part of the band the party is investigating (just throwing ideas around here) found in a random spot on the map they might think a bit more on it: might they have valuable information we can use to further our investigation? do we already have enough info? do we still want to cut down their numbers at any occasion?
If they are the guards to the bandits hideout: do we have a secondary way in we can use?
There a lot of factors that contribute in the party decision to go or not into a fight, and they are all due to convenience, imho.
... again unless they are murder-hobos, in which case they will attack whatever you throw at them for the sole pleasure of killing stuff.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Running the math through an encounter calculator, a party of five level 3 characters versus twelve CR 1/8 Bandits works out to a Medium difficulty encounter. Things would have to go really off the rails for such an encounter to become Deadly.
How to make your players second guess a fight:
Part 1: The setup
As you head through the woods you see the tracks of a large humanoid creature. You recall from earlier that you had witnessed the giant two-headed creature wielding a tree trunk sized club. There are signs of saplings being trampled down, much similar to how dandelions are when you walk through a field, as well as some decent sized animal carcasses. Most of these dead animals have a limb which looks to have been bitten or gnawed off and then carelessly tossed aside like so much trash. You hear, coming from the direction you're headed, the heavy plodding of feet, and the sound of breaking wood.
**players have hidden in the trees**
As the creature approaches where you've hidden you see one of the heads sniffing the air, the other head is chewing on what looks to be the leg of a deer. About 20 feet in front of you the creature stops, the sniffing head looks in your general direction. "I smell food, I seen dem go dis way" one head starts speaking. "I wan crush them udder ones, them scaley ones. They runned 'way I kills them". The two heads begin to bicker over what to do.
Part 2: The follow through
**players discuss attacking or staying hidden**
As the two heads continue to argue you watch one of the massive arms reach out and grab a tree. It's hands, almost twice the size of your head, wrap a little over half-way around the tree and you hear a faint cracking sound. The legs of the creature seem to be controlled by the other head as the body starts to walk the opposite direction of the tree being gripped. You watch as the feet dig in to the ground causing ruts almost immediately. The muscles on the arm holding the tree begin to buldge and you watch as the fingertips start to pierce the bark of the tree, you can see some of the roots starting to pop out of the ground. The two heads are still arguing about what to do, find and eat you all, or find and kill the others.
**players discuss how to drive the creature away, one player still wants to fight
Part 3: Finish them
You see the creature bend down, digging their feet into the ground, pits almost 4 inches deep start to form as the creature tries to pull the arm off the tree. The free arm swinging with the force of an avalanche onto the one gripping the tree. The arm gripping the tree twitches with each blow, the roots popping like bubble wrap as the tree is starting to be pulled from the ground. Splinters are spraying over the area as pieces of the tree are starting to shatter with the grip of the creature. Their argument getting louder and more aggressive. It's only a matter of time til one head wins the argument.
*players cast a spell to drive the creature off**
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This is a true event in the campaign I am running. 3 lvl 5 characters, Rogue, Sorc, Barb watching an Ettin throw a temper tantrum. They could have beaten the creature, and with how well my group works together, they'd have done so with little trouble. Because of how I painted the scene, they felt there was no chance of coming away from this unless they had the help of their other 3 party members.
I have found that if you give them enough of a description, with the use of colorful analogies, similes, and metaphors, they'll pick up on the cues. You have to be heavy handed with your words too, lay on the dramatic effect as thick as possible. Players are ignorant, they are ignorant because they only know what we DMs tell them. So if we don't lay it on thick, they'll miss it, it's natural. The more danger you add to your description, broken stones, large bones the size of SUVs, scratches in the side of mountains, acid bleached sand, the more they'll have to consider why. Then you give them a display, the crushed body of a manticore in the creatures mouth, a diamond melting as the droplet of saliva hits it, the champion of the king's army is destroyed in one round of combat after dealing a critical, thunderous smite, holy avenger strike.
And yes, in many anime, and some cinema movies, the "aura of death" or "killing intent" of a creature is shown to have an effect on the protagonist. As a DM you can narrate that with a minor mechanical effect. It's one of those times where you can take agency away from a player, for the briefest of instances, to drive a point home.
I like DMTach0's writing style ;)
As to the original question, at times I'm brought back to something said in Return of the King (I believe so anyway). I can't remember which character said it, but the context was being massively outnumbered while facing down the host at the gates of Mordor. And I believe the quote was something akin to, "There are those among us equal to 100 enemies (or maybe even 1000 lol).
The point being this: PCs/Adventurers at these levels are still probably fighting at a 2:1 or even 3:1 advantage against random bravos. Obviously if the bravos are of an equivalent level they would be massive favorites, but then then question becomes academic. 5 vs 12 with a level playing field favors the 12. 5 level 3's against 12 level 1 NPCs seems heavily favored to the PC's. Obviously none of what I sad addresses the motivation to fight or not fight. But given the little you mentioned in the first post, let's look at it like this.
A group of 5 level 3 adventurers wander into a lightly populated village that's peripherally ruled by a gang of thugs. In a simple village a group of 12 seems more than capable of keeping regular folks in hand. As the PC's enter a shrill whistle breaks the air and within moments the full compliment is spread before them, wearing random leather armor; some have shields and 1 a helmet. The leader addresses the PC's, "Welcome to Shit's Creek. Truly sorry for the inconvenience, but all who enter Shit's Creek have to give up half their coin to guarantee safe passage and help our village prosper. Failure to comply...well that's not a good idea. What say you?"
Your fighter bristles at the blatant threat, and your rogue is already contemplating how to rob these would-be extortionists from what they've previously taken, but your level-headed bard places a restraining hand on the dwarf fighter's chain armor and steps forward with a smile. "My good man, we're but humble travelers passing through. We have little coin to speak of, but in deference to the prosperity of this fine village I'm sure we can pool together a few silver to aid the cause." (Persuasion check, but ultimately fails as the leader isn't interested in being sweet-talked, and feels like there's obviously more than a few silver). The leader responds, "I really have to stop asking these rhetorical questions, as simpletons such as yourself feel like you have a choice in the matter. For trying to pull the wool over my eyes I think instead we'll be taking all your coin, and I suppose you can thank me after for sparing your lives."
The bard shakes his head sadly, seemingly contrite for overstepping. "I really would love to comply, but you see Grimshackle holds onto our coin, kind of like a bank, and he rarely allows anyone to withdraw." The stout dwarf steps forward, grinning menacingly, and in a deep brogue says, "Aye, but I happily take deposits." Grimshackle takes a menacing step forward while his companions fan out behind him. And...roll initiative :D
"Is this a deadly encounter" is a mechanical question though.
I describe the enemy's appearance and emphasize parts of it that allow a player to judge the situation. If an NPC has 18 strength, that should be reflected in their appearance. If the town guard has old, rusted, or worn weapons that suggests they're poor and inexperienced. If the enemies have several scars and start giving each other subtle hand signals before the fight breaks out, that suggests they have experience and a strategy. Street thugs and bandits will have a different disposition from soldiers and war veterans. Powerful individuals (e.g. gladiators, veterans, champions) will likely have some notoriety and possibly 1 or 2 magical items that clues players in to their exceptional capabilities.
Conflating "should we engage" with "can we win this" is a false dichotomy though. Neither side is forced to fight to the death and players don't need to know if they're going to win or not before engaging. They can decide to escape if it becomes obvious they're out of their depth (and not every encounter needs to be winnable.) Appearances can be deceiving (especially when illusion and transmutation magic are a possibility) and a weak-looking old man might actually be a 15th level monk with Timeless Body.
"Should we engage" is also a function of the story genre and past encounters. If your players routinely get thrashed, they'll learn to treat every encounter with extreme caution regardless of what they're up against. If they regularly charge in guns blazing and win, they'll learn to expect that outcome in the future too. The first encounters of an adventure should set the tone for what players can expect.
My take on that encounter is the word "bravos" in your description. That implies they're more than just normal, every day townsfolk who formed a militia. That implies that they're thugs, bandits, bullies, etc. which are more of a challenge for a group of PC's who they have outnumbered 2:1 than the normal local militia made up of commoners with cheap weapons would make.
If I was one of the players, I'd assume that we could take them but that it would be a fight and we'd have to fight intelligently and if we didn't work together and cooperate, the bravos would win.
Professional computer geek
The encounter is can be deadly if the DM wants it to be. Even if the players fight and lose, they don't have to die. They can be captured.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Also, if the bravos have to move a long distance, or through difficult terrain, to reach the PCs (who might be using missile weapons to harry them), they would be wise to take the dodge action and use cover as they go.
Easiest way I've found to become tactical when dealing with D&D is to ask the question "What would I do to not die?"
Goblins aren't the most intelligent creatures, running head long into combat, smashing against the heroes like water against the rocks.
That is all wrong! Goblins have a 10 INT, that is the equivalent of a High School diploma, potentially as far as Trade School or 1st year College. That said, they'll figure out things like "Hey dem glowy hands mean fire!" or "Dat one touches friends and they start to fight again." even "Ouch, swords hurt". Now they do have am 8 WIS, which means they'll probably not come up with a solution quickly. That doesn't mean they'll stand there and let the same thing happen without changing things up.
So, how do I play a creature that's kinda smart, has limited tactical faculties, lives to revel in the suffering of others, and has a party of adventurers shooting spells, arrows and waving swords around at them. I run away, sneak around in the cave systems I helped make, and I use hit and run techniques. That's what I'd do in real life, why not use those thoughts in game?
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Tactical approach doesn't necessarily mean having this chess like understanding of how your combat will play out. Instead, just look at the resources at your disposal, and ask how you might make it harder for the Fighter to hit you, how you might flank the Wizard, how you'd stop the Rogue from sneaking up on you. Then you translate that into the creatures, in this case Bravos, and ask one last question. How ready are they do die? I know I'm not ready to give my life for something as mundane as a few copper, however if my family were at stake...I'll risk life an limb for them.
"Easiest way I've found to become tactical when dealing with D&D is to ask the question "What would I do to not die?"
Goblins aren't the most intelligent creatures, running head long into combat, smashing against the heroes like water against the rocks.
That is all wrong!"
Agreed. Totally. 100%
But if the bravos/goblins have no ranged options, apart from running away, what options do they really have other than to swarm the PCs?
At least the goblins can take a bonus action to hide - the bravos probably haven't even got that.
And I pity the goblins facing a balanced squad of murder-ho....sorry adventurers:
how you might make it harder for the Fighter to hit you : Run away or use the dodge action and hope your mate kills the fighter.
how you might flank* the Wizard: Swarm him!
how you'd stop the Rogue from sneaking up on you : Close ranks.
*If this is 5th Edition, there's a good chance you can't.
But that's a sidetrack. The real reason behind the initial post was me wondering what factors PLAYERS use to decide if they are facing a murderously difficult fight when presented with the information given. How much of the decision is based on meta-gaming?
When you are faced with an Ogre or a manticore or a grown white dragon, there is a fairly good chance that it is a CR 2/3/13 encounter. But humanoids, especially PC race humanoids (which seems to be just about all of them!) can vary from a farmer knackered after a days work to Rand Al'Thor (who once was a farmer knackered after dragging a near corpse into town.)
MMOs have a nasty habit of just levelling the same old monsters - I gave up with Everquest 2 the day I got a level 80 quest to kill 10 snakes. Level 80 snakes, of course! Surrrounded by level 80 butterflies probably!
Do the Challenge Ratings of encounters always level up with the players?
Jim Murphy is a notoriously tough GM. He believes character death should always be on the cards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l2NVLGEvfM
But even he designs encounters based on the characters and not the world.
I'm not looking for advice, but opinions, thoughts, and experiences. (Maybe even anecdotes if they are interesting.)
Except about the poor bravos without a ranged option - I really would like to see a clever tactic for them.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Rangeless creatures vs balanced team, use the terrain to your advantage. This is a village, they can't target you if you're not visible, run through houses, run behind houses, grab hostages. Makeshift tools to create cover, wagons, hay bails, upturned troughs, push a wagon at the party like a battering ram. The idea is to disrupt the enemy, separate them, and pick them off one at a time, there is strength in numbers.
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Opinions on how to create challenge that scales with the players:
-Choose to shut down at least one mechanic that the player relies on during the "cinematic" fights.
-Inflate numbers, simple, effective, boring.
-Use those video game, movie, book, etc. references to create a better, more dangerous version.
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I'm the last person you want to ask about how a player decides to fight. I'm a DM before I'm a player, I've spent more time behind the screen than playing. The last 3 times I had a chance to play the game I made my decision to fight based on RP. I played a Drow ranger who spent most of his time hunting a group of people, combat was just part of life to him. I then played the wizard prefab from LMoP, but for him I chose to rp him as a man who despised killing, combat to him was forced. I'm now playing CoS and my character is a Hunter/Swashbuckler, he fights to protect, otherwise he talks his way out of fights.
A dozen bravos. Leather clad, With swords.
Does there appear to be uniform garb and armament? Do they appear to be local? Do they have a clearly established leader?
Do they have an organizational appearance? What is their motivation for confronting us?
Two issues appear for me. If you're in the village, where are you going to retreat to, the dungeon, or forest?
Once again, you're in the village- what are the chances of re-enforcements showing up during melee?