Half-Elves & Half-Orcs as we knew them are gone?

Because, at least to me, it's not about the stats? I honestly don't care if the stat block is just 'human with a few minor tweaks' and I don't know where you're getting this whole 'super hybrid' thing from. It's about the fact that half elves and half orcs have been part of D&D, as well as the larger fantasy roleplay culture, for a long time now and WotC rolling two of the most popular races (IIRC numbers 3 and 5) into a single generic option is backhanded, lazy, and disheartening and will only result in less people playing both. Heck, Pathfinder 2e has them as just sub-catagories of human and that's more than acceptable in my eyes cause it allows them to retain their distinctiveness.

"Retaining their distinctiveness" is exactly the problem.  How many times must that be explained?  You continue to say 'the generic rule is fine for weird combinations nobody likes, but these two deserve special exemptions because they just do", without ever seeming to realize that the special exemptions are the source of the entire problem.

Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'.  They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream.  They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that. 

Dream with us, Snow. 

Quote from Snowtworf >>

Because, at least to me, it's not about the stats? I honestly don't care if the stat block is just 'human with a few minor tweaks' and I don't know where you're getting this whole 'super hybrid' thing from. It's about the fact that half elves and half orcs have been part of D&D, as well as the larger fantasy roleplay culture, for a long time now and WotC rolling two of the most popular races (IIRC numbers 3 and 5) into a single generic option is backhanded, lazy, and disheartening and will only result in less people playing both. Heck, Pathfinder 2e has them as just sub-catagories of human and that's more than acceptable in my eyes cause it allows them to retain their distinctiveness.

What exactly is in the PHB entry that was lost that actually mattered that can also be applied to all games and not just your game? What was lost that was so disheartening that it calls into question your desire to play them?

Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'.  They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream.  They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.

Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats.  "They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else".

So, change the Half-Elf and Half-Orc lore/fluff.

What some of us want, including those who want to keep the HE and HO is to have a set of stats that is not wholly either parent, but something new. The new rules remove that option. Let us choose not only skin colour, eyes, and ears, but also choose or mix/match abilities from each parent race. Why not that?

Quote from OctoberGeek>>

Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'.  They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream.  They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.

Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats. 

No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.

Now you might not like how 1DD handles it, and that's fine. You might not want mechanically distinct Half Elves and Half Orcs to go away, and I'm honestly fine with that as well. Just don't tell me that it is not uncomfortable for people, because I'm telling you it is and it is not your place to tell me how I should feel or not.

I would understand if you acknowledged how it makes me and some others feel and don't think this is convincing enough of an argument for you to want to change the current system, but what I won't stand for is you trying to invalidate how I feel and reason with me that I shouldn't be feeling that way.

While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community.  Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.

That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real".  Care to keep shooting for more? 

Quote from OctoberGeek >>

Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'.  They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream.  They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.

Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats.  "They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else".

So, change the Half-Elf and Half-Orc lore/fluff.

What some of us want, including those who want to keep the HE and HO is to have a set of stats that is not wholly either parent, but something new. The new rules remove that option. Let us choose not only skin colour, eyes, and ears, but also choose or mix/match abilities from each parent race. Why not that?

 Because someone will want their ardent/elf mixed to have ardent flight and teleportation or any other min/max thing people can come up with. I honestly think one possible fix is for WotC to allow this across the board and just let the min maxers have their fun, or to have half race 1st level feat that gives you part of that races features in a more balanced way.

Quote from Ophidimancer >>

Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals.

That's a very elegant way of putting it.

To be, uh, "fair" to the devil's advocates in the room, the same can be said of making race a game thing, in general. Or any other "nature over nurture," the-bloodline-is-what-matters take on character-building. However, it's quite acute (on the nose, even) with biracial characters.

Half-elf has the name "elf" in it, and Half-orc has the title "Orc" in it, this is why I prefer the term "ancestry". Because saying you are of "elvish ancestry" doesn't put an amount on it. You could be a "half-elf" and it would be accurate to say you have elvish ancestry. It would also be accurate to say you have human ancestry. Making it Ancestry instead of race just solves this whole argument. You could be 1/10th elf and STILL have elvish ancestry.

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community.  Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.

That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real".  Care to keep shooting for more? 

As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game. We also don't know the whole story as to why they deleted the account.

No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.

Stats are going to be involved no matter what. You can say that this is uncomfortable but your half elf is still getting racial bonuses from one of their parent races. Notably only one. You're making the statement that a half-elf, despite their ancestery, is no different from a human/elf. 

Quote from Snowtworf >>

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community.  Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.

That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real".  Care to keep shooting for more? 

 

As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game. We also don't know the whole story as to why they deleted the account.

No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.

 

Stats are going to be involved no matter what. You can say that this is uncomfortable but your half elf is still getting racial bonuses from one of their parent races. Notably only one. You're making the statement that a half-elf, despite their ancestery, is no different from a human/elf. 

Wow, this is just displaying zero capacity for human empathy.  We might not know why Dhauna left, but we can make a pretty good guess. Because see, they literally TOLD us they had experienced horror stories like that at tables and had to leave them because of it. But you shouldn't need them to tell you that much, because real living people have repeatedly said that these rules and lore make them extremely uncomfortable.

It's not just one single thread on a forum.  It's a lifetime of experiences.  It's knowing that they can't even find peace in their hobby. It's having the same arguments just for people to recognize their humanity over and over. You pretending that it is anything less is so belittling. 

Multiple actual people have explained jn a hundred different ways that racist stereotypes cause real life harm to them. But you keep trying to tell them to get over it. That it could be worse.  Meanwhile, you expect people to sympathize that you lost your beloved racism lore? You want WotC to put it back, force everyone to see it, even though you are still completely free to keep using it at your own table. You want to force real people to face further harmful stereotypes because you... liked playing them?  You have to see that these two different concerns are not even close to being worth the same consideration. WotC made the right choice here. 

The harder you dig in here, the more petty and uncaring you look. You probably aren't that kind of person. But right now we can't see it. 

I mean this sincerely, please take some time to reflect on how you are coming across.

I can live with creating an Elf and saying it looks human(ish) due to parents and calling it a half-elf.

I will miss +1/+1/+2 to stats.

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community.  Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.

That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real".  Care to keep shooting for more? 

Oh no, that's who the deleted user is. That's sad.

Quote from kenclary >>

Quote from Ophidimancer >>

Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals.

That's a very elegant way of putting it.

To be, uh, "fair" to the devil's advocates in the room, the same can be said of making race a game thing, in general. Or any other "nature over nurture," the-bloodline-is-what-matters take on character-building. However, it's quite acute (on the nose, even) with biracial characters.

Yes, that's true as well. Having races as mechanically distinct things at all is bioessentialist. It's not something I think is going to change, however, and it's also something I'm used to. None of that means it's good, mind you, just ... status quo.

Quote from Snowtworf>>

Quote from Yurei1453>>

While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community.  Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.

That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real".  Care to keep shooting for more? 

As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game. We also don't know the whole story as to why they deleted the account.

Saying, "I shudder to think how they would feel if they ran into actually toxic people" isn't proving your own non-toxicity, just the relative levels of it. Also it sounds a lot like "Well I'll give you something to actually cry about."

No, it's what the stats say about the people they are portraying. It's the kind of thing that turns people like Samedi of Orleans away from D&D entirely because the stats make statements about the people they are meant to represent. Giving half elves and half orcs their own racial stats makes them into something mechanically and inherently different from other people, turning their biracial identities into gameable things, which serves to make them less then people and more like pedigreed stock animals. This is uncomfortable for many reasons.

Stats are going to be involved no matter what. You can say that this is uncomfortable but your half elf is still getting racial bonuses from one of their parent races. Notably only one. You're making the statement that a half-elf, despite their ancestery, is no different from a human/elf.

Nope, as I've already said before, holistically taking Background, Feat, and abilities into account give a fuller picture than just hyper focusing on special abilities. And again I am also telling you that the way it is handled in 1DD feels much more like they're treating multiracial people as people first and stats second. Like I said before, separating out specifically half elves and half orcs to give distinct mechanical differences is precisely the uncomfortable thing.  The way 1DD handles multiracial people feels much more comfortable and it was surprising.

Quote from Snowtworf>>

Quote from Yurei1453>>

While I find a brief moment during a miserable workday to check in: it was brought to my attention that Dhauna, a new participant to these forums who argued from their own pain and vulnerability in this very thread, deleted their account and left the community.  Quite possibly in response to this very thread, and the idea that "half-breeds" needed to exist for D&D to be D&D.

That's one person y'all pushed into quitting the game, in spite of constant assertions that these concerns "aren't real".  Care to keep shooting for more? 

As tragic as it is, if a single thread on an internet forum can cause such distress, I can only shudder at the thought of what would have happened when they met some of the r/RPGhorrorstories level of toxic players in their actual game.

 "When"?

Quote from Stegodorkus >>

Quote from Snowtworf >>

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

[Snip]

 [Snip]

 Multiple actual people have explained jn a hundred different ways that racist stereotypes cause real life harm to them. But you keep trying to tell them to get over it.

You're right. Every comment has accomplished nothing, save to amplify Snowtworf's voice on this matter. You don't have to convince everyone to agree. Let this one go. It's literally one user.

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

I'd like to float the idea that maybe nobody here is going to get the definitive final blow. There won't be any single post that everyone can look at and say, "ah, yes. The argument is over."

Or rather, if there is, it won't be for the quality of the argument therein, it'll be because it's a mod having to shut things down for getting too heated.

The person who got the last comment before that happens isn't the winner.

 Yeah, I do recall your warning (above) over 3 weeks ago...

I sometimes wish I'd never read this thread.  It's not been a great first exposure to the forums.  I kept my first post in it short, but I felt the need to say something in support of the people who weren't being heard about their real pain. I later tried to explain things clearly but it was largely ignored.  That's fine. Today I'd had enough and let it show. This topic is extremely personal to me and it is hard to look away. 

But I've said all I wanted, and more. I'm sorry if I misunderstood anyone or caused further trouble. You're right, no single post is going to create a sudden flash of understanding and agreement.  The internet is not made for that.  This won't be the last post in this thread I'm sure, but it will be the last one for me. I'll just leave knowing that a majority of people in this thread have shown their compassion is strong for others, and that is encouraging.  Sending y'all my love. 

Quote from OctoberGeek >>

Proponents of the idea behind this rule do not WANT to be 'special exemptions'.  They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else, with their deeds and their decisions determining their fate and their place in the world rather than their blood. You could say that they have a dream.  They have a dream that their future D&D characters will one day live in a fantasy world where they will not be judged by the origin of their blood but by the content of their character sheets. Unless they actively want otherwise and their table is universally okay with that.

Seems to me this is a problem with the fluff, not the stats.  "They want their mingled-heritage character to be treated like anybody else".

So, change the Half-Elf and Half-Orc lore/fluff.

What some of us want, including those who want to keep the HE and HO is to have a set of stats that is not wholly either parent, but something new. The new rules remove that option. Let us choose not only skin colour, eyes, and ears, but also choose or mix/match abilities from each parent race. Why not that?

But in that case, in my opinion, it would be best to open the character design. For example, with a point-buy system as has been proposed before.

That, anyway, is a letter to Santa Claus. WoTC isn't going to change the character design that much.

As a workaround they could include a "customize your race" rule like they did at Tasha's. And with those rules you design your half elf, your half orc, or whatever you want.

I still think there is no need. Starting from the human you can become the half you want (they are always half human for some reason).

Edit: Ok, reading the rest of the thread I see that there are some identity problems involved in this topic. That being the case, the first thing to do is respect people's feelings. To say that they are bullshit, or that no one cares about that, is a terrible reply. If someone complains about that, it means that they care. And you have to respect it, because identity is a very important issue. Then the mechanical and design discussion will come, but the first thing is to respect people and their feelings of identity.

As often as this wretched conversation turns up, I consider it worth having/defending whenever it does.  You never know when it's going to be someone's first exposure to real thought on the idea, and I very starkly remember my confusion when I asked a black friend of mine why Black Lives Matter was a thing.  "Aren't all lives supposed to matter?" I asked him, like the naive and uneducated little thing I was.  And he calmly set me straight because we were friends and he knew I was coming from a place of ignorance, not malevolence.

I'm never going to forget the way that felt, the paradigm shift in my brain that happened during that conversation and the research that followed it.  The shame I felt for having even asked that question of my friend, and how grateful I was for him that he'd been the bigger man and set me straight with calm compassion.  That conversation with my buddy was exactly the Flash of Understanding Steg spoke of, the pinch of outside perspective that was exactly what I needed to put my own brain in order.  My buddy taught me an entirely new way to think, reason, and exhibit compassion that day, and if I can spread the lesson on to even one more person?  If just one more human being experiences anything like the "oh!  That's what this all means!" moment I did? 

Then every godawful dunghill of a forum tire fire I have to slog through was worth every word and every infraction point.  Yeah, I know - it ain't likely to happen on page 17 of a three month old thread nobody wanted back in the first place.  But damnit, it's just not in my brain to let it go.  Sometimes I wish it was, but I know in my bones that sometimes all someone needs is a good, proper explanation and then their brain snaps into gear.  Showing solidarity with folks who've lived this crap and don't want to be forced to tolerate it in their D&D games is a very healthy plus, but that is why I wade into this sewer every time it breaches the surface again.

For what that's worth.

As often as this wretched conversation turns up, I consider it worth having/defending whenever it does.  You never know when it's going to be someone's first exposure to real thought on the idea, and I very starkly remember my confusion when I asked a black friend of mine why Black Lives Matter was a thing.  "Aren't all lives supposed to matter?" I asked him, like the naive and uneducated little thing I was.  And he calmly set me straight because we were friends and he knew I was coming from a place of ignorance, not malevolence.

I won't lie. It took me a bit to figure out how to respond to this. Mostly because this sort of thing also drags up a bunch of very... complex and confused... feelings. It doesn't help that, due to IRL stuff, my mind is addled to boot. I did want to say I, likewise, went through a similar phase though, even if I not only did not have someone to explain it to me, and I'm pretty sure that, even if they had, the 'all-or-nothing' stance several BLM supporters that I knew would have turned me off from the viewpoint. It wasn't until I took a step away from those people and was able to examine it on my own that I was able to understand just how rotten the police had actually become and my rosy viewpoint of them came from both my race and living in a town with a relatively solid police force I was friendly with (my mom and I had to handle a lot of their beurocratic meetings). It's different for everyone.

However, I've been doing some thinking about this. Admittedly something I had a lot of today while being bedbound. The fact is that 1DD's doing a lot of questionable changes and things I have immense doubts about. While I may be wrong, and I hope I am, I feel it's safe to say that 1DD is not the game for me and, I suspect, means I will either be staying with 5e or quitting D&D, and possibly TTRPG's if I can't find a new one, all together for at least a while. So I bit you adeu. I know you're heartbroken to see me leave. No, I won't be closing my account (I still use it for the 5e stuff I'm involved in that doesn't use roll20), but I won't be posting anymore for likely a long while.