One D&D UA 9/29/22 - Expert Classes

HAs somebody done the math comparing the rogue damage to the fighter is the fighter used the new feats so no more -5 to hit +10 damage.  

So with the new crossbow expert do you need to be dual wielding hand crossbows for it to be able to work?

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Yeah I don't like it either. I wonder why they're doing it. Was Rogue damage somehow more than they wanted? Was the "meta" of looking for ways to do off turn Sneak Attack somehow not the kind of gameplay they wanted from the Rogue class?

 I too don't like it. But do keep in mind that it's not a massive change to sneak attack, it's only a small nerf. And it was kinda broken with things like the Commanders Strike Battle Master feature.

I don't think off turn Sneak Attack damage was broken, Rogues were only basically holding even with dedicated martials. Commander's Strike is a terrible example, it is horribly inefficient action economy, it burns an attack, a Bonus Action, and someone else's Reaction to get an extra attack.

 I would argue that the Rogue's purpose is to be a Skill Monkey first and Damage Dealer second. I think they are doing that just fine with this nerf in place.  I have a feeling we will see similar language for Smites once we get the Paladin playtest.  

 
I still think it should work with the “blade” antrips.

 I just want to point out that Booming Blade isn't even available to any casters or via Feats according to the UA list and may never return.

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Yeah I don't like it either. I wonder why they're doing it. Was Rogue damage somehow more than they wanted? Was the "meta" of looking for ways to do off turn Sneak Attack somehow not the kind of gameplay they wanted from the Rogue class?

 I too don't like it. But do keep in mind that it's not a massive change to sneak attack, it's only a small nerf. And it was kinda broken with things like the Commanders Strike Battle Master feature.

I don't think off turn Sneak Attack damage was broken, Rogues were only basically holding even with dedicated martials. Commander's Strike is a terrible example, it is horribly inefficient action economy, it burns an attack, a Bonus Action, and someone else's Reaction to get an extra attack.

 I would argue that the Rogue's purpose is to be a Skill Monkey first and Damage Dealer second. I think they are doing that just fine with this nerf in place.  I have a feeling we will see similar language for Smites once we get the Paladin playtest.  

 
I still think it should work with the “blade” antrips.

 I just want to point out that Booming Blade isn't even available to any casters or via Feats according to the UA list and may never return.

 What do you mean? I havent looked over the spell lists but I figured that they would only include spells from the 2014 PHB at this point. Since OneD&D is supposed to be backwards compatible supposedly you will still be able to pick up the spell from Tashas or SCAG the "classic" way. 

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Yeah I don't like it either. I wonder why they're doing it. Was Rogue damage somehow more than they wanted? Was the "meta" of looking for ways to do off turn Sneak Attack somehow not the kind of gameplay they wanted from the Rogue class?

 I too don't like it. But do keep in mind that it's not a massive change to sneak attack, it's only a small nerf. And it was kinda broken with things like the Commanders Strike Battle Master feature.

I don't think off turn Sneak Attack damage was broken, Rogues were only basically holding even with dedicated martials. Commander's Strike is a terrible example, it is horribly inefficient action economy, it burns an attack, a Bonus Action, and someone else's Reaction to get an extra attack.

 I would argue that the Rogue's purpose is to be a Skill Monkey first and Damage Dealer second. I think they are doing that just fine with this nerf in place.  I have a feeling we will see similar language for Smites once we get the Paladin playtest.  

 
I still think it should work with the “blade” antrips.

 I just want to point out that Booming Blade isn't even available to any casters or via Feats according to the UA list and may never return.

 What do you mean? I havent looked over the spell lists but I figured that they would only include spells from the 2014 PHB at this point. Since OneD&D is supposed to be backwards compatible supposedly you will still be able to pick up the spell from Tashas or SCAG the "classic" way. 

 Booming Blade is not on any spell list so can't be selected by any one per RAW since the rules in the UA specifically refer to the three new lists.

Edit: They may eventually provide list sorting all the non PHB spells into lists, but for now they are not available to characters using the UA Bard or Magic Initiate Feats.

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So with the new crossbow expert do you need to be dual wielding hand crossbows for it to be able to work?

Well, you have to be dual wielding something - doesn't have to be two crossbows. You can duel weild a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other, for instance. Or, yes, two crossbows.

Also, as a side note: How backwards compatible the next version of the game will be is questionable considering the UA Bard gains 4 class features while all previous Bard Subclasses only provide 3.  Looks like not everything will be 100% compatible. 

I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

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I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

 Tasha's had already made them into Feats though, they are just moving that into the PHB.

I am just glad that Ranger gets one for free and likely so will all the other Martial that normally have a Fighting Style.

Edit: But these Feats are only available to "Warriors" so non Martial classes will have to Dip into a Warrior class to get them. The current version is available to everyone. 

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I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

 Tasha's had already made them into Feats though, they are just moving that into the PHB.

I am just glad that Ranger gets one for free and likely so will all the other Martial that normally have a Fighting Style.

Edit: But these Feats are only available to "Warriors" so non Martial classes will have to Dip into a Warrior class to get them. The current version is available to everyone. 

 
No, Tasha’s made A feat that allowed you to take a fighting style. Now that each fighting style is its own feat, a human fighter can start with 3 fighting styles, a human barbarian or monk can start with 2, and they could all add more as they level up if they choose. I don’t like it. If there was just one fighting style feat that allowed you to pick a single style like in Tasha’s, I wouldn’t be complaining. 

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I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

 Tasha's had already made them into Feats though, they are just moving that into the PHB.

I am just glad that Ranger gets one for free and likely so will all the other Martial that normally have a Fighting Style.

Edit: But these Feats are only available to "Warriors" so non Martial classes will have to Dip into a Warrior class to get them. The current version is available to everyone. 

 
No, Tasha’s made A feat that allowed you to take a fighting style. Now that each fighting style is its own feat, a human fighter can start with 3 fighting styles, a human barbarian or monk can start with 2, and they could all add more as they level up if they choose. I don’t like it. If there was just one fighting style feat that allowed you to pick a single style like in Tasha’s, I wouldn’t be complaining. 

You know, I hadn't considered that and now I like it more.

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I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

 Tasha's had already made them into Feats though, they are just moving that into the PHB.

I am just glad that Ranger gets one for free and likely so will all the other Martial that normally have a Fighting Style.

Edit: But these Feats are only available to "Warriors" so non Martial classes will have to Dip into a Warrior class to get them. The current version is available to everyone. 

 
No, Tasha’s made A feat that allowed you to take a fighting style. Now that each fighting style is its own feat, a human fighter can start with 3 fighting styles, a human barbarian or monk can start with 2, and they could all add more as they level up if they choose. I don’t like it. If there was just one fighting style feat that allowed you to pick a single style like in Tasha’s, I wouldn’t be complaining. 

You know, I hadn't considered that and now I like it more.

 Just because I dislike it?!?

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Just because I dislike it?!?

No, I just like the idea of Barbarians and Monks having increased access to Fighting Styles, even multiple styles, from level 1.

I'm with Ophidimancer here. Martials have such a tendency to get siloed into a specific style that it's nice to at least have the option for some versatility. Granted, snagging a bunch of style feats is probably suboptimal, given that you can only benefit from one at a time and they aren't half feats, but at least the option is there.

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I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

 Tasha's had already made them into Feats though, they are just moving that into the PHB.

I am just glad that Ranger gets one for free and likely so will all the other Martial that normally have a Fighting Style.

Edit: But these Feats are only available to "Warriors" so non Martial classes will have to Dip into a Warrior class to get them. The current version is available to everyone. 

 
No, Tasha’s made A feat that allowed you to take a fighting style. Now that each fighting style is its own feat, a human fighter can start with 3 fighting styles, a human barbarian or monk can start with 2, and they could all add more as they level up if they choose. I don’t like it. If there was just one fighting style feat that allowed you to pick a single style like in Tasha’s, I wouldn’t be complaining. 

 Ah, I see.

I honestly think with the "Warrior" UA, there will be better Feats to take than just getting another Fighting Style.  I really don't see most Martials having more than 2 which is pretty much where they are now. I think the fact that the Fighting Styles are limited to "Warriors" and those classes being able to be more versatile in the way that they fight is a positive thing. Since it is a Feat, they can choose to either be more broadly skilled, or more focused by taking other Feats. 

Of course it is all speculation dependent upon the things said by JC in the Feats video. 

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HAs somebody done the math comparing the rogue damage to the fighter is the fighter used the new feats so no more -5 to hit +10 damage.  

One flaw I see in all of this, in a UA about Expert Groups and adding feats that specific to groups, they do not provide any feats that have prerequisite to Expert Class

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One flaw I see in all of this, in a UA about Expert Groups and adding feats that specific to groups, they do not provide any feats that have prerequisite to Expert Class

Some of the Epic Boons do.

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Just because I dislike it?!?

No, I just like the idea of Barbarians and Monks having increased access to Fighting Styles, even multiple styles, from level 1.

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I'm with Ophidimancer here. Martials have such a tendency to get siloed into a specific style that it's nice to at least have the option for some versatility. Granted, snagging a bunch of style feats is probably suboptimal, given that you can only benefit from one at a time and they aren't half feats, but at least the option is there.

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I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

 Tasha's had already made them into Feats though, they are just moving that into the PHB.

I am just glad that Ranger gets one for free and likely so will all the other Martial that normally have a Fighting Style.

Edit: But these Feats are only available to "Warriors" so non Martial classes will have to Dip into a Warrior class to get them. The current version is available to everyone. 

 
No, Tasha’s made A feat that allowed you to take a fighting style. Now that each fighting style is its own feat, a human fighter can start with 3 fighting styles, a human barbarian or monk can start with 2, and they could all add more as they level up if they choose. I don’t like it. If there was just one fighting style feat that allowed you to pick a single style like in Tasha’s, I wouldn’t be complaining. 

 Ah, I see.

I honestly think with the "Warrior" UA, there will be better Feats to take than just getting another Fighting Style.  I really don't see most Martials having more than 2 which is pretty much where they are now. I think the fact that the Fighting Styles are limited to "Warriors" and those classes being able to be more versatile in the way that they fight is a positive thing. Since it is a Feat, they can choose to either be more broadly skilled, or more focused by taking other Feats. 

Of course it is all speculation dependent upon the things said by JC in the Feats video. 

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I gotta say I don’t like that the fighting styles are now feats. Seems… wrong.

 Tasha's had already made them into Feats though, they are just moving that into the PHB.

I am just glad that Ranger gets one for free and likely so will all the other Martial that normally have a Fighting Style.

Edit: But these Feats are only available to "Warriors" so non Martial classes will have to Dip into a Warrior class to get them. The current version is available to everyone. 

 
No, Tasha’s made A feat that allowed you to take a fighting style. Now that each fighting style is its own feat, a human fighter can start with 3 fighting styles, a human barbarian or monk can start with 2, and they could all add more as they level up if they choose. I don’t like it. If there was just one fighting style feat that allowed you to pick a single style like in Tasha’s, I wouldn’t be complaining. 

 

I don't see an inherent problem honestly. We've recently talked about how martials don't get a whole lot of options compared to casters, and this is one way of giving that to them.

Not to mention, each of the fighting styles is so basic that having only one (or two if you sacrifice a feat for it) if you weren't a Champion just felt wrong to me. Why exactly can't a warrior specialize in both archery and two-weapon fighting? Or specialize in both dueling and protection?

 
I don’t mind the idea of a fighter with 2 fighting styles, or think that letting a barbarian or a monk have a fighting style is a bad thing. Like I said, I didn’t mind the feat in Tasha’s. I do mind them having all of that at 1st-level. A fighter should have to start with 1 and work up to their second one, and everyone else should have to work up to their first to keep having one at 1st level special for fighters. It’s having access to all of them, especially right out the gate that I don’t like.  

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One flaw I see in all of this, in a UA about Expert Groups and adding feats that specific to groups, they do not provide any feats that have prerequisite to Expert Class

Some of the Epic Boons do.

 But that is level 20. Should have some for lower level for play test. Like the fighting styles are all Warrior.
So to have a couple that demonstrate what separates the Expert group.