Mystic Arcanum at level 3 won't fix the problem because you still won't have the flexibility you had before, and being locked into a single spell that you can cast a single time is not enough to make up for both the loss of power or the loss of flexibility. It's at best a band-aid on losing both. And the Warlock's progression is still designed to be equivalent to that of a full caster, again exemplified in the progression of their spell slots. So far, nothing I've seen changes any of that, not even the inclusion of Wish to their spell list.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others? They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters? If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum. Right now it sounds like you are saying definition of "full caster equivlant" is getting access to spells at the same rate... which they get. Mez is acting like they don't get that. Like they don't cast the same number of 4th level spells as a full caster does at level 7... they do. Acting like they don't cast the same number of 5th level spells as a full caster at level 9.... again they do. Full casters get one, new warlock gets 1. They aren't a full caster, but they still keep same spell level progression thanks to mystic arcanum.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
We don't critique the half caster Paladin, Ranger, or Artificer because they're not primary spellcasters. Paladin and Ranger are martials with some casting. Artificer is a support unit with some spellcasting.
Warlock is a primary spellcaster. What does it bring to the table to compete with the new Arcane Bard?
The answer is nothing except being an Eldritch Blast turret, and that's not enough.
We don't critique the half caster Paladin, Ranger, or Artificer because they're not primary spellcasters. Paladin and Ranger are martials with some casting. Artificer is a support unit with some spellcasting.
Warlock is a primary spellcaster. What does it bring to the table to compete with the new Arcane Bard?
The answer is nothing except being an Eldritch Blast turret, and that's not enough.
That is the same answer for the Old Warlock as well. This is not new to new Warlock. Because EB is a Martial ability. Treating it otherwise is a misunderstanding of the game. If it wasn't WotC wouldn't have made Warlock like they did in the playtest.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
This is just False. 1 or 2 invocations is not "every resource" and it definitely has a lot of resources left over.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
This is just False. 1 or 2 invocations is not "every resource" and it definitely has a lot of resources left over.
That won’t even come close to what the old Warlock could do and you know it. A couple of chump change lower-level spell slots ain’t enough to make up for what they’re losing.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
This is just False. 1 or 2 invocations is not "every resource" and it definitely has a lot of resources left over.
That won’t even come close to what the old Warlock could do and you know it. A couple of chump change lower-level spell slots ain’t enough to make up for what they’re losing.
And the old warlock doesn't come close to what the new warlock can do and you know it.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
So what you wanted was a pure buff in tier 2 to a class that was already pretty strong. Instead of having to make trade offs for a more SATISFYING Tier 2 and more balanced tier 3 and almost balanced tier 4 (Capstone was still complete booty). Tier 3 Warlock still gets same number of 6th level spells. Still have a 5th, a 4th, multiple 3rd level casts and on the old warlock list the 3rd level spells were some of the best anyway. The 6th level spell access is better, the 4th is better and the 5th is better, by the end of Tier 3 They have a better 7th level spell than before, a 6th just like before and they are trading 3 5, for 1 5, Could be 3 four, and 3 3rd.
Thing about short rests are always this. You don't get to plan when you get them, you could spend 2 spells and then get a short and only recover 2. You could spend all 3 spells and go into a fight with no spells left and THEN get a short rest. You can't use a lower level slot for a lower level spell, so even if that lower level spell is what solves the issue you are still using your 5th level slot for it. All of these things are not taken into consideration when people talk about "the power lost at T3 and T4" it is always theoretical power, not the actual power in the game.
Edit: before this thread gets much farther I am just going to say there is a LOT of solutions that could work for Warlock. This one was one, I could see the bounded spell casting where they give you spells back on a short rest ONCE per long but they also provide some lower level slots. Like at level 5 having 2 3rd and 2 2nd level slots, and level 7 it becoming 2 4th and 2 3rd. I don't know where this is going to land, but Warlocks will definitely not be full casters. They will DEFINITELY have access to spells at the same rate as full casters. That is all we know.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
So what you wanted was a pure buff in tier 2 to a class that was already pretty strong. Instead of having to make trade offs for a more SATISFYING Tier 2 and more balanced tier 3 and almost balanced tier 4 (Capstone was still complete booty). Tier 3 Warlock still gets same number of 6th level spells. Still have a 5th, a 4th, multiple 3rd level casts and on the old warlock list the 3rd level spells were some of the best anyway. The 6th level spell access is better, the 4th is better and the 5th is better, by the end of Tier 3 They have a better 7th level spell than before, a 6th just like before and they are trading 3 5, for 1 5, Could be 3 four, and 3 3rd.
Thing about short rests are always this. You don't get to plan when you get them, you could spend 2 spells and then get a short and only recover 2. You could spend all 3 spells and go into a fight with no spells left and THEN get a short rest. You can't use a lower level slot for a lower level spell, so even if that lower level spell is what solves the issue you are still using your 5th level slot for it. All of these things are not taken into consideration when people talk about "the power lost at T3 and T4" it is always theoretical power, not the actual power in the game.
Edit: before this thread gets much farther I am just going to say there is a LOT of solutions that could work for Warlock. This one was one, I could see the bounded spell casting where they give you spells back on a short rest ONCE per long but they also provide some lower level slots. Like at level 5 having 2 3rd and 2 2nd level slots, and level 7 it becoming 2 4th and 2 3rd. I don't know where this is going to land, but Warlocks will definitely not be full casters. They will DEFINITELY have access to spells at the same rate as full casters. That is all we know.
Should Warlocks be converted to long rest refreshes? Pro’ly. Should they have a better spell list? Definitely. Should they have gotten access to Invocations that grant at will casting of a broader variety of low-level spells to compensate for not having lower level spell slots? Absolutely. Should they get half-caster spell progression? Absolutely not.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
So what you wanted was a pure buff in tier 2 to a class that was already pretty strong. Instead of having to make trade offs for a more SATISFYING Tier 2 and more balanced tier 3 and almost balanced tier 4 (Capstone was still complete booty). Tier 3 Warlock still gets same number of 6th level spells. Still have a 5th, a 4th, multiple 3rd level casts and on the old warlock list the 3rd level spells were some of the best anyway. The 6th level spell access is better, the 4th is better and the 5th is better, by the end of Tier 3 They have a better 7th level spell than before, a 6th just like before and they are trading 3 5, for 1 5, Could be 3 four, and 3 3rd.
Thing about short rests are always this. You don't get to plan when you get them, you could spend 2 spells and then get a short and only recover 2. You could spend all 3 spells and go into a fight with no spells left and THEN get a short rest. You can't use a lower level slot for a lower level spell, so even if that lower level spell is what solves the issue you are still using your 5th level slot for it. All of these things are not taken into consideration when people talk about "the power lost at T3 and T4" it is always theoretical power, not the actual power in the game.
Edit: before this thread gets much farther I am just going to say there is a LOT of solutions that could work for Warlock. This one was one, I could see the bounded spell casting where they give you spells back on a short rest ONCE per long but they also provide some lower level slots. Like at level 5 having 2 3rd and 2 2nd level slots, and level 7 it becoming 2 4th and 2 3rd. I don't know where this is going to land, but Warlocks will definitely not be full casters. They will DEFINITELY have access to spells at the same rate as full casters. That is all we know.
Should Warlocks be converted to long rest refreshes? Pro’ly. Should they have a better spell list? Definitely. Should they have gotten access to Invocations that grant at will casting of a broader variety of low-level spells to compensate for not having lower level spell slots? Absolutely. Should they get half-caster spell progression? Absolutely not.
The question you need to ask yourself is "what do you think the Warlock should GIVE UP for the extra power you are asking for in other areas?" The class was decently balanced so any gain must and should come with a cost. Keep that in mind when analyzing it. This isn't like the rogue or the Monk who were just weak. Personally, I was torn by this iteration. I liked it, but KNEW it was incomplete. I do NOT know what the next iteration will be. But man I really hope they do not do the Warlock as dirty as they did the monk. That poor poor class.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
So what you wanted was a pure buff in tier 2 to a class that was already pretty strong. Instead of having to make trade offs for a more SATISFYING Tier 2 and more balanced tier 3 and almost balanced tier 4 (Capstone was still complete booty). Tier 3 Warlock still gets same number of 6th level spells. Still have a 5th, a 4th, multiple 3rd level casts and on the old warlock list the 3rd level spells were some of the best anyway. The 6th level spell access is better, the 4th is better and the 5th is better, by the end of Tier 3 They have a better 7th level spell than before, a 6th just like before and they are trading 3 5, for 1 5, Could be 3 four, and 3 3rd.
Thing about short rests are always this. You don't get to plan when you get them, you could spend 2 spells and then get a short and only recover 2. You could spend all 3 spells and go into a fight with no spells left and THEN get a short rest. You can't use a lower level slot for a lower level spell, so even if that lower level spell is what solves the issue you are still using your 5th level slot for it. All of these things are not taken into consideration when people talk about "the power lost at T3 and T4" it is always theoretical power, not the actual power in the game.
Edit: before this thread gets much farther I am just going to say there is a LOT of solutions that could work for Warlock. This one was one, I could see the bounded spell casting where they give you spells back on a short rest ONCE per long but they also provide some lower level slots. Like at level 5 having 2 3rd and 2 2nd level slots, and level 7 it becoming 2 4th and 2 3rd. I don't know where this is going to land, but Warlocks will definitely not be full casters. They will DEFINITELY have access to spells at the same rate as full casters. That is all we know.
Should Warlocks be converted to long rest refreshes? Pro’ly. Should they have a better spell list? Definitely. Should they have gotten access to Invocations that grant at will casting of a broader variety of low-level spells to compensate for not having lower level spell slots? Absolutely. Should they get half-caster spell progression? Absolutely not.
The question you need to ask yourself is "what do you think the Warlock should GIVE UP for the extra power you are asking for in other areas?" The class was decently balanced so any gain must and should come with a cost. Keep that in mind when analyzing it. This isn't like the rogue or the Monk who were just weak.
Well if it was so balanced and wonderful then what the eff is anyone complaining about? Leave it alone.
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others. They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters. If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum, and they both still cast a concentration spell and then EB.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
So what you wanted was a pure buff in tier 2 to a class that was already pretty strong. Instead of having to make trade offs for a more SATISFYING Tier 2 and more balanced tier 3 and almost balanced tier 4 (Capstone was still complete booty). Tier 3 Warlock still gets same number of 6th level spells. Still have a 5th, a 4th, multiple 3rd level casts and on the old warlock list the 3rd level spells were some of the best anyway. The 6th level spell access is better, the 4th is better and the 5th is better, by the end of Tier 3 They have a better 7th level spell than before, a 6th just like before and they are trading 3 5, for 1 5, Could be 3 four, and 3 3rd.
Thing about short rests are always this. You don't get to plan when you get them, you could spend 2 spells and then get a short and only recover 2. You could spend all 3 spells and go into a fight with no spells left and THEN get a short rest. You can't use a lower level slot for a lower level spell, so even if that lower level spell is what solves the issue you are still using your 5th level slot for it. All of these things are not taken into consideration when people talk about "the power lost at T3 and T4" it is always theoretical power, not the actual power in the game.
Edit: before this thread gets much farther I am just going to say there is a LOT of solutions that could work for Warlock. This one was one, I could see the bounded spell casting where they give you spells back on a short rest ONCE per long but they also provide some lower level slots. Like at level 5 having 2 3rd and 2 2nd level slots, and level 7 it becoming 2 4th and 2 3rd. I don't know where this is going to land, but Warlocks will definitely not be full casters. They will DEFINITELY have access to spells at the same rate as full casters. That is all we know.
Should Warlocks be converted to long rest refreshes? Pro’ly. Should they have a better spell list? Definitely. Should they have gotten access to Invocations that grant at will casting of a broader variety of low-level spells to compensate for not having lower level spell slots? Absolutely. Should they get half-caster spell progression? Absolutely not.
The question you need to ask yourself is "what do you think the Warlock should GIVE UP for the extra power you are asking for in other areas?" The class was decently balanced so any gain must and should come with a cost. Keep that in mind when analyzing it. This isn't like the rogue or the Monk who were just weak.
Well if it was so balanced and wonderful then what the eff is anyone complaining about? Leave it alone.
Balanced does not equal satisfying. It was balanced, but inconsistent and unsatisfying. It worked at some tables, not at others. It was OP at some tables Under Powered at others. Balanced in theory does not mean it was functioning as intended at every table. It needed changing so that it would be balanced in practice and not just in theory.
*See Crawford* "Actual power vs Theoretical power".
Warlocks were never meant to be Full casters. At least according to all statements I have seen.
No, they were not meant to be full casters. They were meant to be full caster equivalents. How about we flip this argument around? Warlocks were never meant to be half casters. If they were, they would have designed them as such. They weren't, and their mechanics don't reflect that either. They're not half casters.
They have designed them as such. Didn't you see the playtest.
"Full Caster equivalent" What does that even mean? They are a full class like all the others? They get access to the spells at the same rate as full casters? If that isn't enough to be "full caster equivalent' doesn't that just mean the next step is just straight being a full caster... which they aren't and wizards has said they aren't.
No, they are not “like all the others” or they would have had the same full caster progression as the other full casters. They are equivalent to full casters because they get access to 9th-level spells, etc., but they aren’t quite the same. They’re like a spork in a drawer full of forks. They do the same job just as well, but they’re not quite exactly the same. Mezz is right, they’re full caster equivalent, but not actually full casters.
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Are you talking about the current one or the revised version? Because they both get access to a 9th level spell, and they both get access to spells at the same rate as full casters due to mystic arcanum. Right now it sounds like you are saying definition of "full caster equivlant" is getting access to spells at the same rate... which they get. Mez is acting like they don't get that. Like they don't cast the same number of 4th level spells as a full caster does at level 7... they do. Acting like they don't cast the same number of 5th level spells as a full caster at level 9.... again they do. Full casters get one, new warlock gets 1. They aren't a full caster, but they still keep same spell level progression thanks to mystic arcanum.
The current one. I speak as little as possible about that abomination currently in playtest.
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Sorry I was confused, because the statement you made fit both of them the exact same. So I guess that makes the Playtest one "full caster equivalent" mission accomplished.
We don't critique the half caster Paladin, Ranger, or Artificer because they're not primary spellcasters. Paladin and Ranger are martials with some casting. Artificer is a support unit with some spellcasting.
Warlock is a primary spellcaster. What does it bring to the table to compete with the new Arcane Bard?
The answer is nothing except being an Eldritch Blast turret, and that's not enough.
That is the same answer for the Old Warlock as well. This is not new to new Warlock. Because EB is a Martial ability. Treating it otherwise is a misunderstanding of the game. If it wasn't WotC wouldn't have made Warlock like they did in the playtest.
No, if the new one spends every resource it has it it can barely become a full caster equivalent. The old one was a full caster equivalent and it still had resources to spend on other stuff.
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This is just False. 1 or 2 invocations is not "every resource" and it definitely has a lot of resources left over.
That won’t even come close to what the old Warlock could do and you know it. A couple of chump change lower-level spell slots ain’t enough to make up for what they’re losing.
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And the old warlock doesn't come close to what the new warlock can do and you know it.
lol that's a joke right? 2 spell slots is no where close to what a full caster can do, lose concentration or get counterspelled and old warlock had nothing but EB, or you know just have a combat that lasts more than 2 rounds and your spamming EB like there's no tomorrow cause old-lock's got nothing else to do. While the true full casters are tossing out levelled spells every turn, and often more than once per turn.
Yeah, it needed more Pact Magic slots at lower levels, nobody’s arguing that they didn’t. But at higher levels it wasn’t all like you describe, and with 2 short rests, being able to toss out a dozen 5th-level spells/day plus higher level spells too is no joke. Don’t even try to pretend that a handful of lower-level slots even comes close to compensating for that in tiers 3 & 4.
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So what you wanted was a pure buff in tier 2 to a class that was already pretty strong. Instead of having to make trade offs for a more SATISFYING Tier 2 and more balanced tier 3 and almost balanced tier 4 (Capstone was still complete booty). Tier 3 Warlock still gets same number of 6th level spells. Still have a 5th, a 4th, multiple 3rd level casts and on the old warlock list the 3rd level spells were some of the best anyway. The 6th level spell access is better, the 4th is better and the 5th is better, by the end of Tier 3 They have a better 7th level spell than before, a 6th just like before and they are trading 3 5, for 1 5, Could be 3 four, and 3 3rd.
Thing about short rests are always this. You don't get to plan when you get them, you could spend 2 spells and then get a short and only recover 2. You could spend all 3 spells and go into a fight with no spells left and THEN get a short rest. You can't use a lower level slot for a lower level spell, so even if that lower level spell is what solves the issue you are still using your 5th level slot for it. All of these things are not taken into consideration when people talk about "the power lost at T3 and T4" it is always theoretical power, not the actual power in the game.
Edit: before this thread gets much farther I am just going to say there is a LOT of solutions that could work for Warlock. This one was one, I could see the bounded spell casting where they give you spells back on a short rest ONCE per long but they also provide some lower level slots. Like at level 5 having 2 3rd and 2 2nd level slots, and level 7 it becoming 2 4th and 2 3rd. I don't know where this is going to land, but Warlocks will definitely not be full casters. They will DEFINITELY have access to spells at the same rate as full casters. That is all we know.
Should Warlocks be converted to long rest refreshes? Pro’ly. Should they have a better spell list? Definitely. Should they have gotten access to Invocations that grant at will casting of a broader variety of low-level spells to compensate for not having lower level spell slots? Absolutely. Should they get half-caster spell progression? Absolutely not.
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The question you need to ask yourself is "what do you think the Warlock should GIVE UP for the extra power you are asking for in other areas?" The class was decently balanced so any gain must and should come with a cost. Keep that in mind when analyzing it. This isn't like the rogue or the Monk who were just weak. Personally, I was torn by this iteration. I liked it, but KNEW it was incomplete. I do NOT know what the next iteration will be. But man I really hope they do not do the Warlock as dirty as they did the monk. That poor poor class.
Well if it was so balanced and wonderful then what the eff is anyone complaining about? Leave it alone.
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Balanced does not equal satisfying. It was balanced, but inconsistent and unsatisfying. It worked at some tables, not at others. It was OP at some tables Under Powered at others. Balanced in theory does not mean it was functioning as intended at every table. It needed changing so that it would be balanced in practice and not just in theory.
*See Crawford* "Actual power vs Theoretical power".