Here is a chunk of my feedback that i have submitted for the monk on this UA. It mostly revolves around ki/discipline as an inadequate resource pool. If any of this resonates feel free to copy/paste or paraphrase for your own feedback.
Ki/Discipline points as a resource has a major flaw. Every discipline point a monk spends on a subclass feature TAKES AWAY from the ability to use a main class feature like stunning strike or flurry of blows. Every other class in the game gets a set number of uses of their subclass features IN ADDITION to their main class features. Imagine if using fighter subclass features potentially denied the use of action surge, second wind. That's what it feels like playing a monk. Particularly at lower levels when ki is so limited that you are often faced with the choice to use a subclass feature and sacrifice the use of a main class feature or vice versa. This should not happen. A subclass feature should never come at the expense of a main class feature. No other class in the game has this issue. Discipline points are broken and need to be fixed. This is priority number one.
Here are a few suggestions:
-Build more subclass features based on flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of wind so the player gets more mileage out of those features without having to pay any extra ki.
-Have more subclass features that have a set number of uses per short or long rest and less subclass features that need any ki at all. Particularly for the level 3 and 6 monk subclass features.
-There is not nearly enough ki to start the game. Adding your wisdom modifier to the starting ki pool is a bare minimum number.
-Add longer durations to subclass features.
-Standardize discipline points to a long rest. Short rests are highly variable and because of this a monks' power level is wildly inconsistent from one table to the next.
-Make the value of one ki/discipline point more potent.
A class can only be as good as its resource pool and right now Discipline points are too limited, too weak and there is a hidden cost to using them that diminishes the monk's ability to be on the same level as other classes. I like the idea of a monk having its own resource pool. It helps to create a strong identity for the monk. But if you can't fix this issue then I suggest you scrap ki/discipline points altogether and make the monk a half caster with a few unique monk spells. After all, making a great monk is more important than being backwards compatible.
-Build more subclass features based on flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of wind so the player gets more mileage out of those features without having to pay any extra ki.
Hand monk already does this, albeit horribly; what they should do is follow the Way of Mercy's style or the new Elements and Shadow.
-Have more subclass features that have a set number of uses per short or long rest and less subclass features that need any ki at all. Particularly for the level 3 and 6 monk subclass features.
I agree that low DP is an annoying issue, but it's not really THAT much of a problem for Shadow (Darkness is the only feature that uses DP until level 11) and it might bother Elements (Elemental Burst is a bit costly, but using it once along Attunement should be sufficient for the whole fight), Hand will use a DP on every turn to activate any of its features, so they might run out of DP even faster than Elements.
-There is not nearly enough ki to start the game. Adding your wisdom modifier to the starting ki pool is a bare minimum number.
True, but rather than increasing the number of DP, there should be a way to restore them outside of rests or magic items, like using a bonus action (wis times per long rest) to restore half your monk level (rounded up).
-Add longer durations to subclass features.
Hand issue. Shadow and Elements get features that can last the whole battle or even longer than that.
-Standardize discipline points to a long rest. Short rests are highly variable and because of this a monks' power level is wildly inconsistent from one table to the next.
That's why I want an alternate way to restore DP, if you move them to long rest dependency, you need to double the amount of DP you get, and this will cause strong DP features to weaken (not immediately, but you can be sure WotC may erase Diamond Soul and Empty body completely if that happens).
-Make the value of one ki/discipline point more potent.
I'm not sure about this one because DP's value are incosistent across the subclasses. According to Shadow, 1 DP = a 2nd level spell (Darkness), and 3 DP = a 4th level spell (Greater Invisibility) + 2 other abilities; however, according to Elements, 1 DP = a 3rd level spell (Fly) or 1 DP = a 3rd level spell (Asharladon's Stride) + other abilities. Hand does not have a feature with a spell equivalent (at least not anymore), so if we use 5e Open Hand, then we get that 3 ki = a 9th level spell (kinda).
I understand that the only offensive features that the base class offers are FoB and Stunning Strike, but we, the players, should not fall into thinking that that's the only way to play monk, that's what subclasses are there for. In fact, I suspect that Stunning Strike was weakened to disencourage its use, so that WotC can do away with the ability or add something more powerful to the subclasses, because if Stunning Strike is stronger than what your subclass is trying to do, then the subclass is pointless (this all points to Hand being really bad as a subclass now). So far 2/3 of the subclasses work, even with the "problems" the base class may have, what we should be asking for is a new revision of Hand, we have yet to see how the other subclasses will be reworked.
Opening telling people to copy-and-paste your opinion instead of forming their own is a great way to convince folks reading the surveys to disregard your response and any other responses that copy-and-paste said text.
Also,
a.) plenty of Sorcerer subclass features also draw upon sorcery points; b.) several Druid subclass features draw upon Wild Shape uses; c.) several caster subclass features revolve around the use of spells which effectively ties them to the same resource; d.) spells themselves are effectively features that draw from the same shared resource pools; e.) Discipline points come from a larger pool that refreshes upon short rest, thus allowing Monks more flexibility in expending that resource than spell slots or single-use features.
a) you are correct in that sorcery subclass features do draw on sorcery points but sorcery points are not the sorcerers primary resource. Spell slots are. And spells are great. Ki is the primary resource for the monk so you cant really compare the two.
b) once again, the druids primary resource is Spell Slots not wild shape. Wild shape uses come on top of that and generally dont take away valuable uses of spells.
c) you are correct and i think that is bad design. That was my whole point. Subclass features should come in addition to main class features, not at the expense of them This happens more with the monk then any other class. Is it too much to ask for the monk to be brought up to the same standards as other classes?
d) spellcaster subclass features generally dont take away a spellcasters ability to cast specific spells whereas ki does take away uses of monks specific main class abilities.
e) a monks power should generally be the same from table to table and from one game to another but not all tables do the recommended amount of short rests. Some do more and some do less. A monk that only gets one short rest is way different then one that gets three or more. That should not happen. Standardizing ki to a long rest protects players who want to play a monk at tables that limit short rests. It happens.
Opening telling people to copy-and-paste your opinion instead of forming their own is a great way to convince folks reading the surveys to disregard your response and any other responses that copy-and-paste said text.
Also,
a.) plenty of Sorcerer subclass features also draw upon sorcery points; b.) several Druid subclass features draw upon Wild Shape uses; c.) several caster subclass features revolve around the use of spells which effectively ties them to the same resource; d.) spells themselves are effectively features that draw from the same shared resource pools; e.) Discipline points come from a larger pool that refreshes upon short rest, thus allowing Monks more flexibility in expending that resource than spell slots or single-use features.
a) you are correct in that sorcery subclass features do draw on sorcery points but sorcery points are not the sorcerers primary resource. Spell slots are. And spells are great. Ki is the primary resource for the monk so you cant really compare the two.
b) once again, the druids primary resource is Spell Slots not wild shape. Wild shape uses come on top of that and generally dont take away valuable uses of spells.
c) you are correct and i think that is bad design. That was my whole point. Subclass features should come in addition to main class features, not at the expense of them This happens more with the monk then any other class. Is it too much to ask for the monk to be brought up to the same standards as other classes?
d) spellcaster subclass features generally dont take away a spellcasters ability to cast specific spells whereas ki does take away uses of monks specific main class abilities.
e) a monks power should generally be the same from table to table and from one game to another but not all tables do the recommended amount of short rests. Some do more and some do less. A monk that only gets one short rest is way different then one that gets three or more. That should not happen. Standardizing ki to a long rest protects players who want to play a monk at tables that limit short rests. It happens.
I am of the weird thought that, for backwards compatibility purposes, that discipline points should be used for subclass features and we can do away with most, if not all, main class uses for discipline points. We can even change the subclass names from way of or warrior of to Discipline of.....
Discipline of the open Hand. Discipline of Mercy, Discipline of Shadow, Discipline of the four elements.
-Build more subclass features based on flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of wind so the player gets more mileage out of those features without having to pay any extra ki.
Hand monk already does this, albeit horribly; what they should do is follow the Way of Mercy's style or the new Elements and Shadow.
-Have more subclass features that have a set number of uses per short or long rest and less subclass features that need any ki at all. Particularly for the level 3 and 6 monk subclass features.
I agree that low DP is an annoying issue, but it's not really THAT much of a problem for Shadow (Darkness is the only feature that uses DP until level 11) and it might bother Elements (Elemental Burst is a bit costly, but using it once along Attunement should be sufficient for the whole fight), Hand will use a DP on every turn to activate any of its features, so they might run out of DP even faster than Elements.
-There is not nearly enough ki to start the game. Adding your wisdom modifier to the starting ki pool is a bare minimum number.
True, but rather than increasing the number of DP, there should be a way to restore them outside of rests or magic items, like using a bonus action (wis times per long rest) to restore half your monk level (rounded up).
-Add longer durations to subclass features.
Hand issue. Shadow and Elements get features that can last the whole battle or even longer than that.
-Standardize discipline points to a long rest. Short rests are highly variable and because of this a monks' power level is wildly inconsistent from one table to the next.
That's why I want an alternate way to restore DP, if you move them to long rest dependency, you need to double the amount of DP you get, and this will cause strong DP features to weaken (not immediately, but you can be sure WotC may erase Diamond Soul and Empty body completely if that happens).
-Make the value of one ki/discipline point more potent.
I'm not sure about this one because DP's value are incosistent across the subclasses. According to Shadow, 1 DP = a 2nd level spell (Darkness), and 3 DP = a 4th level spell (Greater Invisibility) + 2 other abilities; however, according to Elements, 1 DP = a 3rd level spell (Fly) or 1 DP = a 3rd level spell (Asharladon's Stride) + other abilities. Hand does not have a feature with a spell equivalent (at least not anymore), so if we use 5e Open Hand, then we get that 3 ki = a 9th level spell (kinda).
I understand that the only offensive features that the base class offers are FoB and Stunning Strike, but we, the players, should not fall into thinking that that's the only way to play monk, that's what subclasses are there for. In fact, I suspect that Stunning Strike was weakened to disencourage its use, so that WotC can do away with the ability or add something more powerful to the subclasses, because if Stunning Strike is stronger than what your subclass is trying to do, then the subclass is pointless (this all points to Hand being really bad as a subclass now). So far 2/3 of the subclasses work, even with the "problems" the base class may have, what we should be asking for is a new revision of Hand, we have yet to see how the other subclasses will be reworked.
You have some great points. The value of ki is wildly inconsistent. The new elements monk gets to spend 1ki and push oponents around for 10 minutes at no additional ki but the open hand monk has to spend 1ki per round to do it. Thats a big discrepancy. Unfortunately open hand got the shaft in this UA. Restoring dp is also good idea if they can figure out how to make it work. Heigtened metabolism is close but i dont think its quite there yet.
Opening telling people to copy-and-paste your opinion instead of forming their own is a great way to convince folks reading the surveys to disregard your response and any other responses that copy-and-paste said text.
Also,
a.) plenty of Sorcerer subclass features also draw upon sorcery points; b.) several Druid subclass features draw upon Wild Shape uses; c.) several caster subclass features revolve around the use of spells which effectively ties them to the same resource; d.) spells themselves are effectively features that draw from the same shared resource pools; e.) Discipline points come from a larger pool that refreshes upon short rest, thus allowing Monks more flexibility in expending that resource than spell slots or single-use features.
a) you are correct in that sorcery subclass features do draw on sorcery points but sorcery points are not the sorcerers primary resource. Spell slots are. And spells are great. Ki is the primary resource for the monk so you cant really compare the two.
b) once again, the druids primary resource is Spell Slots not wild shape. Wild shape uses come on top of that and generally dont take away valuable uses of spells.
c) you are correct and i think that is bad design. That was my whole point. Subclass features should come in addition to main class features, not at the expense of them This happens more with the monk then any other class. Is it too much to ask for the monk to be brought up to the same standards as other classes?
d) spellcaster subclass features generally dont take away a spellcasters ability to cast specific spells whereas ki does take away uses of monks specific main class abilities.
e) a monks power should generally be the same from table to table and from one game to another but not all tables do the recommended amount of short rests. Some do more and some do less. A monk that only gets one short rest is way different then one that gets three or more. That should not happen. Standardizing ki to a long rest protects players who want to play a monk at tables that limit short rests. It happens.
I am of the weird thought that, for backwards compatibility purposes, that discipline points should be used for subclass features and we can do away with most, if not all, main class uses for discipline points. We can even change the subclass names from way of or warrior of to Discipline of.....
Discipline of the open Hand. Discipline of Mercy, Discipline of Shadow, Discipline of the four elements.
I like that idea too but no dp for flurry of blows in tier one might be a bit much. But not if you brought in flurry of blows in at a more appropriate level.
Flurry of Blows- continues to cost 1 ki, but no longer requires an attack action be taken before.
Step of the Wind- continues to work as it does in the playtest
Patient Defense- has 0 ki point cost, it already has an action economy cost because you are giving up your bonus action. Which you could be using to deal damage.
Martial Arts- needs to include the sentence about monk weapons for it to even be backwards compatible with Kensei or they need a rework of Kensei immediately.
Discipline Point Recovery- when you spend discipline points on a feature and the target saves against the feature you can use your reaction to get the discipline points back.
Shadow
While I like the new stuff they are doing with Darkness, they nerfed the classes utility by getting rid of its other spells. I want them back.
Hand
Some of the hand problems are fixed by my base fixes. You could bonus action Flurry of Blows before taking your action which helps this subclass greatly.
Addle- The target can’t take reactions until the end of this turn. If they fail a constitution saving throw they can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Quivering Palm- needs its damage increase because on a successful save it use to do an average damage of 55 and now on a successful save it does an average damage of 40. I get they didn’t like the you drop to zero part of the feature but bumping it up to 12d12 is a fair trade off. Also should be a choice between force and necrotic.
Opening telling people to copy-and-paste your opinion instead of forming their own is a great way to convince folks reading the surveys to disregard your response and any other responses that copy-and-paste said text.
Also,
a.) plenty of Sorcerer subclass features also draw upon sorcery points; b.) several Druid subclass features draw upon Wild Shape uses; c.) several caster subclass features revolve around the use of spells which effectively ties them to the same resource; d.) spells themselves are effectively features that draw from the same shared resource pools; e.) Discipline points come from a larger pool that refreshes upon short rest, thus allowing Monks more flexibility in expending that resource than spell slots or single-use features.
Sorcery Points, Wild Shape, Channel Divinity and Bardic Inspiration are vastly more potent than Discipline Points. Not only do they have much bigger effects than a Discipline Point (For example, 1 Sorcery Point can allow a Sorcerer to re-roll up to 5 dice on a spell's damage [Empowered Spell], and up to 5 more can allow a cast without expending a spell slot at all [twinned spell]) but also these are in addition to other class resources and core abilities.
If Monk was getting Discipline Points in addition to another powerful class resources or combat abilities, this would be an apt comparison. Instead, Monks are significantly weaker in combat and mobility than the other Martial and Martial-adjacent classes and DP allows them to catch up and mildly surpass the base features. But then classes like the Paladin get features like Channel Divinity to improve those already powerful base class features even futrher.
This is where the Monk falls apart. The core class abilities of the Monk are the basic martial class kit, but with weaker weapons and no armor. Even their mobility options don't improve except for their base movement and that's only if they choose not to wear armor - something that other classes can bypass entirely in most circumstances by just buying a mount.
If using DP to enhance the Monk's abilities is supposed to be the big thing, then the Monk needs to be using them to improve features that are already at parity or near-parity with the standard Martial expectations. The trade-off for Sorcerers isn't that they get weaker spells, it's that Sorcerer's can't have as many spells prepared as the other full casters. The Fighter doesn't get a bunch of non-Martial features - instead it gets bonus ability score and feat upgrades so that it can use those features better, faster. Barbarians hit harder and more reliably with Rage. Paladins use spells to increase damage and protect the party. The Ranger has a kit that scouts the battlefield and engages from advantageous positions. Even the Rogue has a kit designed to approach from an odd angle and put a target down before it has a chance to respond. All of those take an average class feature and make it extraordinary.. the Monk kit takes below-average abilities and makes them slightly better than average. And that's where the reliance on DP currently fails, because the other clases get larger and more reliable bossts while the Monk just catches back up.
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
Just a quick reminder for everyone Heightened Metabolism allows for the full on benefits of a short rest, not just the monk's abilities back. Action Surge, Wild shape, Channel Divinity all of these have short rest recovery and will benefit from Heightened Metabolism and synergize really well with the monk.
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
Just a quick reminder for everyone Heightened Metabolism allows for the full on benefits of a short rest, not just the monk's abilities back. Action Surge, Wild shape, Channel Divinity all of these have short rest recovery and will benefit from Heightened Metabolism.
Exactly the Short Rest itself is the one which have to be limited.
Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy
That's precisely another reason. It is not good at all when some have i.e. False Life just casted a minute ago, and others require the damn SR (maybe even for healing). It breaks the game pace, it breaks the party relationship. SR lasting one hour is a ballast.
Limited and shorter Short Rest is better by far than patching each class/subclass which could at the same time open the door for exploits, and also helps the game itself in the table for all the party players together.
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
Just a quick reminder for everyone Heightened Metabolism allows for the full on benefits of a short rest, not just the monk's abilities back. Action Surge, Wild shape, Channel Divinity all of these have short rest recovery and will benefit from Heightened Metabolism.
In fairness that's a bad design and should be removed. Monks getting an additional short rest on command is pretty crazy. Genie Warlocks can do it, but it takes 10 minutes and they are incapacitated for the duration so it's a very risky option unless you prepare a strategy to protect them in advance.
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
Just a quick reminder for everyone Heightened Metabolism allows for the full on benefits of a short rest, not just the monk's abilities back. Action Surge, Wild shape, Channel Divinity all of these have short rest recovery and will benefit from Heightened Metabolism.
In fairness that's a bad design and should be removed. Monks getting an additional short rest on command is pretty crazy. Genie Warlocks can do it, but it takes 10 minutes and they are incapacitated for the duration so it's a very risky option unless you prepare a strategy to protect them in advance.
FYI the new Prayer of Healing gives the party a SR in 10 minutes, there is also the Catnap spell which gives the party a SR in 10 minutes. Both of those spells are 2nd level so available to full casters at level 3. It is extremely stupid that monk has to wait until level 7 for a weaker version of these spells (but sadly oh so typical of monk design : the Monk - weaker versions of other classes features that you have to wait 5 more levels to get access to).
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
Just a quick reminder for everyone Heightened Metabolism allows for the full on benefits of a short rest, not just the monk's abilities back. Action Surge, Wild shape, Channel Divinity all of these have short rest recovery and will benefit from Heightened Metabolism.
In fairness that's a bad design and should be removed. Monks getting an additional short rest on command is pretty crazy. Genie Warlocks can do it, but it takes 10 minutes and they are incapacitated for the duration so it's a very risky option unless you prepare a strategy to protect them in advance.
FYI the new Prayer of Healing gives the party a SR in 10 minutes, there is also the Catnap spell which gives the party a SR in 10 minutes. Both of those spells are 2nd level so available to full casters at level 3. It is extremely stupid that monk has to wait until level 7 for a weaker version of these spells (but sadly oh so typical of monk design : the Monk - weaker versions of other classes features that you have to wait 5 more levels to get access to).
So those features have drawbacks similar to the Genie Warlock, in that they force the party to either confine itself to a single location or become unconscious for the full 10 minute duration. The spell fails if the feature is disrupted at any point during the 10 minute casting process and for Catnap the precondition is actually bad enough that a poorly timed Catnap could end in a party wipe. The entire party has to strategize around those spells when they are cast.
Monk shouldn't be getting a full rest during Heightened Metabolism especially at 2nd level. But giving them the DP earlier and more consistently would fix a lot of low level problems with the Monk and its over-reliance on Discipline Point features during Tier 1 and Tier 2 play.
You need to use DP even for jumping, as the monk lacks Str needs to use the Step of the Wind.
a monk can dash and jump as an action, as can anyone. the strange thing is how fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants rogues are capable of bonus action dash without a resource but body-perfection-seeking disciplined monks require some concentration to make the same effort. silly, lazy monks!
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
Just a quick reminder for everyone Heightened Metabolism allows for the full on benefits of a short rest, not just the monk's abilities back. Action Surge, Wild shape, Channel Divinity all of these have short rest recovery and will benefit from Heightened Metabolism.
In fairness that's a bad design and should be removed. Monks getting an additional short rest on command is pretty crazy. Genie Warlocks can do it, but it takes 10 minutes and they are incapacitated for the duration so it's a very risky option unless you prepare a strategy to protect them in advance.
You could modify heightened metabolism so it only gives ki back and none of the other short rest benefits. That might work and be less of an issue with multiclassing if you put it at level 2. Just tossing ideas around.
I agree with most what OP is laying down, although I'd rather not change ki to long rest or start giving out extra points.
Subclasses really do need to stop requiring so much ki though. You could see them moving this way with Way of Mercy (features are focused on upgrading base class features) and Way of the Ascendant Dragon (you get free uses and can spend ki for more). There's no reason not to continue this design going forward.
Comparing subclass ki requirements to something like alternate Wildshape uses is a mistake - if you're not Circle of the Moon, Wildshape is entirely an out-of-combat utility. Giving it an alternate combat application is not taking away from the base class, rather it is providing a use of that feature when it might not otherwise be used at all. For non-Moon druids, wildshape is nowhere near as vital a resource as ki is for monks.
I have long since allowed Step of the Wind to just be free. There's really no reason it should require ki. I'm also tinkering with how exactly to upgrade Flurry of Blows so that it helps fix the way Monk damage plateaus at level 10. At the least, it should grant three attacks at level 11 and four at 17 - a monk should be able to unleash more (weaker) punches than a fighter swinging a greatsword. I think the other base features are fine as is if you make these changes and use a subclass that doesn't demand more than 1-2 ki points a day to use all features at least once.
You need to use DP even for jumping, as the monk lacks Str needs to use the Step of the Wind.
a monk can dash and jump as an action, as can anyone. the strange thing is how fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants rogues are capable of bonus action dash without a resource but body-perfection-seeking disciplined monks require some concentration to make the same effort. silly, lazy monks!
Yes, but a distance equal to your Str feet. It is supposed the monk to be the mobile guy, but for long jumps then need Step of the Wind to double the jumping distance, as the monk will usually have between 8 and 10.
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Hey all
Here is a chunk of my feedback that i have submitted for the monk on this UA. It mostly revolves around ki/discipline as an inadequate resource pool. If any of this resonates feel free to copy/paste or paraphrase for your own feedback.
Ki/Discipline points as a resource has a major flaw. Every discipline point a monk spends on a subclass feature TAKES AWAY from the ability to use a main class feature like stunning strike or flurry of blows. Every other class in the game gets a set number of uses of their subclass features IN ADDITION to their main class features. Imagine if using fighter subclass features potentially denied the use of action surge, second wind. That's what it feels like playing a monk. Particularly at lower levels when ki is so limited that you are often faced with the choice to use a subclass feature and sacrifice the use of a main class feature or vice versa. This should not happen. A subclass feature should never come at the expense of a main class feature. No other class in the game has this issue. Discipline points are broken and need to be fixed. This is priority number one.
Here are a few suggestions:
-Build more subclass features based on flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of wind so the player gets more mileage out of those features without having to pay any extra ki.
-Have more subclass features that have a set number of uses per short or long rest and less subclass features that need any ki at all. Particularly for the level 3 and 6 monk subclass features.
-There is not nearly enough ki to start the game. Adding your wisdom modifier to the starting ki pool is a bare minimum number.
-Add longer durations to subclass features.
-Standardize discipline points to a long rest. Short rests are highly variable and because of this a monks' power level is wildly inconsistent from one table to the next.
-Make the value of one ki/discipline point more potent.
A class can only be as good as its resource pool and right now Discipline points are too limited, too weak and there is a hidden cost to using them that diminishes the monk's ability to be on the same level as other classes. I like the idea of a monk having its own resource pool. It helps to create a strong identity for the monk. But if you can't fix this issue then I suggest you scrap ki/discipline points altogether and make the monk a half caster with a few unique monk spells. After all, making a great monk is more important than being backwards compatible.
Hand monk already does this, albeit horribly; what they should do is follow the Way of Mercy's style or the new Elements and Shadow.
I agree that low DP is an annoying issue, but it's not really THAT much of a problem for Shadow (Darkness is the only feature that uses DP until level 11) and it might bother Elements (Elemental Burst is a bit costly, but using it once along Attunement should be sufficient for the whole fight), Hand will use a DP on every turn to activate any of its features, so they might run out of DP even faster than Elements.
True, but rather than increasing the number of DP, there should be a way to restore them outside of rests or magic items, like using a bonus action (wis times per long rest) to restore half your monk level (rounded up).
Hand issue. Shadow and Elements get features that can last the whole battle or even longer than that.
That's why I want an alternate way to restore DP, if you move them to long rest dependency, you need to double the amount of DP you get, and this will cause strong DP features to weaken (not immediately, but you can be sure WotC may erase Diamond Soul and Empty body completely if that happens).
I'm not sure about this one because DP's value are incosistent across the subclasses. According to Shadow, 1 DP = a 2nd level spell (Darkness), and 3 DP = a 4th level spell (Greater Invisibility) + 2 other abilities; however, according to Elements, 1 DP = a 3rd level spell (Fly) or 1 DP = a 3rd level spell (Asharladon's Stride) + other abilities. Hand does not have a feature with a spell equivalent (at least not anymore), so if we use 5e Open Hand, then we get that 3 ki = a 9th level spell (kinda).
I understand that the only offensive features that the base class offers are FoB and Stunning Strike, but we, the players, should not fall into thinking that that's the only way to play monk, that's what subclasses are there for. In fact, I suspect that Stunning Strike was weakened to disencourage its use, so that WotC can do away with the ability or add something more powerful to the subclasses, because if Stunning Strike is stronger than what your subclass is trying to do, then the subclass is pointless (this all points to Hand being really bad as a subclass now). So far 2/3 of the subclasses work, even with the "problems" the base class may have, what we should be asking for is a new revision of Hand, we have yet to see how the other subclasses will be reworked.
a) you are correct in that sorcery subclass features do draw on sorcery points but sorcery points are not the sorcerers primary resource. Spell slots are. And spells are great. Ki is the primary resource for the monk so you cant really compare the two.
b) once again, the druids primary resource is Spell Slots not wild shape. Wild shape uses come on top of that and generally dont take away valuable uses of spells.
c) you are correct and i think that is bad design. That was my whole point. Subclass features should come in addition to main class features, not at the expense of them This happens more with the monk then any other class. Is it too much to ask for the monk to be brought up to the same standards as other classes?
d) spellcaster subclass features generally dont take away a spellcasters ability to cast specific spells whereas ki does take away uses of monks specific main class abilities.
e) a monks power should generally be the same from table to table and from one game to another but not all tables do the recommended amount of short rests. Some do more and some do less. A monk that only gets one short rest is way different then one that gets three or more. That should not happen. Standardizing ki to a long rest protects players who want to play a monk at tables that limit short rests. It happens.
I am of the weird thought that, for backwards compatibility purposes, that discipline points should be used for subclass features and we can do away with most, if not all, main class uses for discipline points. We can even change the subclass names from way of or warrior of to Discipline of.....
Discipline of the open Hand. Discipline of Mercy, Discipline of Shadow, Discipline of the four elements.
You have some great points. The value of ki is wildly inconsistent. The new elements monk gets to spend 1ki and push oponents around for 10 minutes at no additional ki but the open hand monk has to spend 1ki per round to do it. Thats a big discrepancy. Unfortunately open hand got the shaft in this UA. Restoring dp is also good idea if they can figure out how to make it work. Heigtened metabolism is close but i dont think its quite there yet.
I like that idea too but no dp for flurry of blows in tier one might be a bit much. But not if you brought in flurry of blows in at a more appropriate level.
My simple fixes
Base monk
Shadow
Hand
Some of the hand problems are fixed by my base fixes. You could bonus action Flurry of Blows before taking your action which helps this subclass greatly.
Sorcery Points, Wild Shape, Channel Divinity and Bardic Inspiration are vastly more potent than Discipline Points. Not only do they have much bigger effects than a Discipline Point (For example, 1 Sorcery Point can allow a Sorcerer to re-roll up to 5 dice on a spell's damage [Empowered Spell], and up to 5 more can allow a cast without expending a spell slot at all [twinned spell]) but also these are in addition to other class resources and core abilities.
If Monk was getting Discipline Points in addition to another powerful class resources or combat abilities, this would be an apt comparison. Instead, Monks are significantly weaker in combat and mobility than the other Martial and Martial-adjacent classes and DP allows them to catch up and mildly surpass the base features. But then classes like the Paladin get features like Channel Divinity to improve those already powerful base class features even futrher.
This is where the Monk falls apart. The core class abilities of the Monk are the basic martial class kit, but with weaker weapons and no armor. Even their mobility options don't improve except for their base movement and that's only if they choose not to wear armor - something that other classes can bypass entirely in most circumstances by just buying a mount.
If using DP to enhance the Monk's abilities is supposed to be the big thing, then the Monk needs to be using them to improve features that are already at parity or near-parity with the standard Martial expectations. The trade-off for Sorcerers isn't that they get weaker spells, it's that Sorcerer's can't have as many spells prepared as the other full casters. The Fighter doesn't get a bunch of non-Martial features - instead it gets bonus ability score and feat upgrades so that it can use those features better, faster. Barbarians hit harder and more reliably with Rage. Paladins use spells to increase damage and protect the party. The Ranger has a kit that scouts the battlefield and engages from advantageous positions. Even the Rogue has a kit designed to approach from an odd angle and put a target down before it has a chance to respond. All of those take an average class feature and make it extraordinary.. the Monk kit takes below-average abilities and makes them slightly better than average. And that's where the reliance on DP currently fails, because the other clases get larger and more reliable bossts while the Monk just catches back up.
The Short Rest idea is not the problem, but is definition by itself. In the case of Short Rest, I'd change to a 5-10 minutes rest, can roll hit dice always (healing), but can only recover resources 2 times per Long Rest. The monk gets a 3rd resource recovery with that 1 minute meditation at level 7th. The time for item attunement continues to be 1 hour.
For Discipline points add 2 or Wis modifier at least.
For the Hand subclass, the 3rd level feature should be using 1 DP to enter in martial concentration state (just like a Barbarian Rage), lasting 10 minutes (like the other monk subclasses) allowing Flurry of Blows for free. All the monk subclasses should use this system of 1 DP for a 10 minutes feature.
Just make the 7th level feature a 2nd level feature, and you can do it a number of times equal to your Wisdom Modifier or Proficiency Bonus per Long Rest. Solves the issue, Short Rests are optional for the party, and it's just long enough and limited enough to require strategy during the early game when unlimited DP would actually be a balance issue.
Just a quick reminder for everyone Heightened Metabolism allows for the full on benefits of a short rest, not just the monk's abilities back. Action Surge, Wild shape, Channel Divinity all of these have short rest recovery and will benefit from Heightened Metabolism and synergize really well with the monk.
Exactly the Short Rest itself is the one which have to be limited.
That's precisely another reason. It is not good at all when some have i.e. False Life just casted a minute ago, and others require the damn SR (maybe even for healing). It breaks the game pace, it breaks the party relationship. SR lasting one hour is a ballast.
Limited and shorter Short Rest is better by far than patching each class/subclass which could at the same time open the door for exploits, and also helps the game itself in the table for all the party players together.
In fairness that's a bad design and should be removed. Monks getting an additional short rest on command is pretty crazy. Genie Warlocks can do it, but it takes 10 minutes and they are incapacitated for the duration so it's a very risky option unless you prepare a strategy to protect them in advance.
FYI the new Prayer of Healing gives the party a SR in 10 minutes, there is also the Catnap spell which gives the party a SR in 10 minutes. Both of those spells are 2nd level so available to full casters at level 3. It is extremely stupid that monk has to wait until level 7 for a weaker version of these spells (but sadly oh so typical of monk design : the Monk - weaker versions of other classes features that you have to wait 5 more levels to get access to).
So those features have drawbacks similar to the Genie Warlock, in that they force the party to either confine itself to a single location or become unconscious for the full 10 minute duration. The spell fails if the feature is disrupted at any point during the 10 minute casting process and for Catnap the precondition is actually bad enough that a poorly timed Catnap could end in a party wipe. The entire party has to strategize around those spells when they are cast.
Monk shouldn't be getting a full rest during Heightened Metabolism especially at 2nd level. But giving them the DP earlier and more consistently would fix a lot of low level problems with the Monk and its over-reliance on Discipline Point features during Tier 1 and Tier 2 play.
You need to use DP even for jumping, as the monk lacks Str needs to use the Step of the Wind.
a monk can dash and jump as an action, as can anyone. the strange thing is how fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants rogues are capable of bonus action dash without a resource but body-perfection-seeking disciplined monks require some concentration to make the same effort. silly, lazy monks!
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
You could modify heightened metabolism so it only gives ki back and none of the other short rest benefits. That might work and be less of an issue with multiclassing if you put it at level 2. Just tossing ideas around.
I agree with most what OP is laying down, although I'd rather not change ki to long rest or start giving out extra points.
Subclasses really do need to stop requiring so much ki though. You could see them moving this way with Way of Mercy (features are focused on upgrading base class features) and Way of the Ascendant Dragon (you get free uses and can spend ki for more). There's no reason not to continue this design going forward.
Comparing subclass ki requirements to something like alternate Wildshape uses is a mistake - if you're not Circle of the Moon, Wildshape is entirely an out-of-combat utility. Giving it an alternate combat application is not taking away from the base class, rather it is providing a use of that feature when it might not otherwise be used at all. For non-Moon druids, wildshape is nowhere near as vital a resource as ki is for monks.
I have long since allowed Step of the Wind to just be free. There's really no reason it should require ki. I'm also tinkering with how exactly to upgrade Flurry of Blows so that it helps fix the way Monk damage plateaus at level 10. At the least, it should grant three attacks at level 11 and four at 17 - a monk should be able to unleash more (weaker) punches than a fighter swinging a greatsword. I think the other base features are fine as is if you make these changes and use a subclass that doesn't demand more than 1-2 ki points a day to use all features at least once.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yes, but a distance equal to your Str feet. It is supposed the monk to be the mobile guy, but for long jumps then need Step of the Wind to double the jumping distance, as the monk will usually have between 8 and 10.