Monks have bad damage, but their argument was sound depending on their final stance. Astral Self adds dpr at 11th and 17th. Breath of Dragon scales in higher tiers so it needed to mentioned. Tipsy sway could have been left off. Elemental Attunement and Elemental Burst could have been left off. One with blade could have been left off. Shtier they aren’t wrong. If they believe it’s enough to catch up to fighter, Paladin or Rogue they are wrong. But should anything be compared to the fighters dpr. DPR is literally the one thing it has and honestly burst damage is far more important in a fight than dpr. I know they are shutting down many of the Nova plays, but that might be better for the game overall.
"Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost." quivering palms Is absolute Garbo after its change and the insult to injury is they gave some of the functionality to the bard.
The 5e Quivering Palm is broken and overpowered, but the new one just okay. The problem is the 5eR hand monk is just so bad that getting their version of QP feels like garbage. It’s honestly a fair amount of damage for the cost. I would up it by 2 dice and put some riders on it so it feels like more of a threat than just damage. In a game with Weapon masteries the Hand monk needs reworks
"Quivering Palm while not awesome as it use to be is still a dpr boost." quivering palms Is absolute Garbo after its change and the insult to injury is they gave some of the functionality to the bard.
Quivering Palm is 10d12+17-20 (82-85) damage, save for half, which is well over the monk's basic damage per round (at that level, about 4d12+20 (46) which can miss), so it's certainly a dpr increase.. just not a terribly impressive one relative to its difficulty to set up.
Fixing the 5eR QP is so easy. All they need to do is get rid of the saving throw and make the damage "cannot be reduced by any means". 3 DP and extra set up would be fine, if I was at least guaranteed to deal significantly more damage than I could have done punching them. But if I have any buff to my regular attacks : a magic weapon, advantage, crusaders mantle, Holy weapon, flame arrows etc... then there is a 60% chance that my QP deals LESS damage than I would have done by just attacking which is completely unacceptable.
Why does Quivering Palm need to be about damage? The 5E version was about a chance of completely reducing an enemies health. What about reducing a target's CON score by 1 or 2 or 1d4 on each hit + failed save? Then the target's health decreases, chance of failing the save increases, and death occurs at 0 CON. But tracking CON changes would be tricky for paper + pencil. Something similar could happen with STR scores (aka Shadow monster). Or levels of Exhaustion could be applied. There is room for creativity here.
Why does Quivering Palm need to be about damage? The 5E version was about a chance of completely reducing an enemies health. What about reducing a target's CON score by 1 or 2 or 1d4 on each hit + failed save? Then the target's health decreases, chance of failing the save increases, and death occurs at 0 CON. But tracking CON changes would be tricky for paper + pencil. Something similar could happen with STR scores (aka Shadow monster). Or levels of Exhaustion could be applied. There is room for creativity here.
Because all of those are significantly less effective than Stunning them. You've only real upgrade option from stunning strike would be Paralysis or domination.
Why does Quivering Palm need to be about damage? The 5E version was about a chance of completely reducing an enemies health. What about reducing a target's CON score by 1 or 2 or 1d4 on each hit + failed save? Then the target's health decreases, chance of failing the save increases, and death occurs at 0 CON. But tracking CON changes would be tricky for paper + pencil. Something similar could happen with STR scores (aka Shadow monster). Or levels of Exhaustion could be applied. There is room for creativity here.
Because all of those are significantly less effective than Stunning them. You've only real upgrade option from stunning strike would be Paralysis or domination.
if the desired effect was incapacitation, then why not apply something like 1d6+3 Exhaustion (UA4) and Dazed while exhausted, no save. they're essentially suffering a heart attack and are unable to defend themselves: d20 tests, spell saves, concentration checks, etc are worse by 1d6+3. if they're not soon failing death saves by 1d6+3, they'll be stuck in bed for 1d6+3 long rests which is not something you could have accomplished with any amount of hit point damage.
they're not dead outright, but they also can't fight back against what you do next.
Why does Quivering Palm need to be about damage? The 5E version was about a chance of completely reducing an enemies health. What about reducing a target's CON score by 1 or 2 or 1d4 on each hit + failed save? Then the target's health decreases, chance of failing the save increases, and death occurs at 0 CON. But tracking CON changes would be tricky for paper + pencil. Something similar could happen with STR scores (aka Shadow monster). Or levels of Exhaustion could be applied. There is room for creativity here.
Why does Quivering Palm need to be about damage? The 5E version was about a chance of completely reducing an enemies health. What about reducing a target's CON score by 1 or 2 or 1d4 on each hit + failed save? Then the target's health decreases, chance of failing the save increases, and death occurs at 0 CON. But tracking CON changes would be tricky for paper + pencil. Something similar could happen with STR scores (aka Shadow monster). Or levels of Exhaustion could be applied. There is room for creativity here.
I’m not against it having a rider. Giving the unconscious condition would be similar to what it does in 5e without being overpowered as dropping them to 0. I’m not against it doing more damage. I think it should be 12d12 and even deal more damage the longer it’s on a creature. I wrote up a version that maxes out the damage of a d12 each day so it becomes more destructive to leave it on a creature for a few days before you activate it.
The original concept for quivering palm is really that it's a thing you get hit with and suffer consequences hours, days, or weeks later. This is, unfortunately, mostly useless in D&D except as an NPC plot device, as a sort of sword of Damocles you can hold over the head of a PC or NPC (similar to geas). It could also be used for Fist of the North Star style 'you are already dead' gruesome deaths, but those aren't really a separate action, they're just delayed damage.
The original concept for quivering palm is really that it's a thing you get hit with and suffer consequences hours, days, or weeks later. This is, unfortunately, mostly useless in D&D except as an NPC plot device, as a sort of sword of Damocles you can hold over the head of a PC or NPC (similar to geas). It could also be used for Fist of the North Star style 'you are already dead' gruesome deaths, but those aren't really a separate action, they're just delayed damage.
yes though rare to work the 'you are already dead" was the best part .
to kill a boss with it you would have to basically burn 3 legendary resistances and have them roll a one .
so the idea that it was cheap is uninformed at the least. it would be much easier to kill most bosses then bet your life on actually killing one with this move . but the theme was cool and they took it away.
The original concept for quivering palm is really that it's a thing you get hit with and suffer consequences hours, days, or weeks later. This is, unfortunately, mostly useless in D&D except as an NPC plot device, as a sort of sword of Damocles you can hold over the head of a PC or NPC (similar to geas). It could also be used for Fist of the North Star style 'you are already dead' gruesome deaths, but those aren't really a separate action, they're just delayed damage.
yes though rare to work the 'you are already dead" was the best part .
to kill a boss with it you would have to basically burn 3 legendary resistances and have them roll a one .
so the idea that it was cheap is uninformed at the least. it would be much easier to kill most bosses then bet your life on actually killing one with this move . but the theme was cool and they took it away.
Not everything you fight at high level has legendary resistances.
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The 5e Quivering Palm is broken and overpowered, but the new one just okay. The problem is the 5eR hand monk is just so bad that getting their version of QP feels like garbage. It’s honestly a fair amount of damage for the cost. I would up it by 2 dice and put some riders on it so it feels like more of a threat than just damage. In a game with Weapon masteries the Hand monk needs reworks
Quivering Palm is 10d12+17-20 (82-85) damage, save for half, which is well over the monk's basic damage per round (at that level, about 4d12+20 (46) which can miss), so it's certainly a dpr increase.. just not a terribly impressive one relative to its difficulty to set up.
Fixing the 5eR QP is so easy. All they need to do is get rid of the saving throw and make the damage "cannot be reduced by any means". 3 DP and extra set up would be fine, if I was at least guaranteed to deal significantly more damage than I could have done punching them. But if I have any buff to my regular attacks : a magic weapon, advantage, crusaders mantle, Holy weapon, flame arrows etc... then there is a 60% chance that my QP deals LESS damage than I would have done by just attacking which is completely unacceptable.
Why does Quivering Palm need to be about damage? The 5E version was about a chance of completely reducing an enemies health. What about reducing a target's CON score by 1 or 2 or 1d4 on each hit + failed save? Then the target's health decreases, chance of failing the save increases, and death occurs at 0 CON. But tracking CON changes would be tricky for paper + pencil. Something similar could happen with STR scores (aka Shadow monster). Or levels of Exhaustion could be applied. There is room for creativity here.
Because all of those are significantly less effective than Stunning them. You've only real upgrade option from stunning strike would be Paralysis or domination.
if the desired effect was incapacitation, then why not apply something like 1d6+3 Exhaustion (UA4) and Dazed while exhausted, no save. they're essentially suffering a heart attack and are unable to defend themselves: d20 tests, spell saves, concentration checks, etc are worse by 1d6+3. if they're not soon failing death saves by 1d6+3, they'll be stuck in bed for 1d6+3 long rests which is not something you could have accomplished with any amount of hit point damage.
they're not dead outright, but they also can't fight back against what you do next.
that sounds incredibly boring .
I’m not against it having a rider. Giving the unconscious condition would be similar to what it does in 5e without being overpowered as dropping them to 0. I’m not against it doing more damage. I think it should be 12d12 and even deal more damage the longer it’s on a creature. I wrote up a version that maxes out the damage of a d12 each day so it becomes more destructive to leave it on a creature for a few days before you activate it.
The original concept for quivering palm is really that it's a thing you get hit with and suffer consequences hours, days, or weeks later. This is, unfortunately, mostly useless in D&D except as an NPC plot device, as a sort of sword of Damocles you can hold over the head of a PC or NPC (similar to geas). It could also be used for Fist of the North Star style 'you are already dead' gruesome deaths, but those aren't really a separate action, they're just delayed damage.
yes though rare to work the 'you are already dead" was the best part .
to kill a boss with it you would have to basically burn 3 legendary resistances and have them roll a one .
so the idea that it was cheap is uninformed at the least. it would be much easier to kill most bosses then bet your life on actually killing one with this move . but the theme was cool and they took it away.
Not everything you fight at high level has legendary resistances.