I'd be fine with Artificer, Druid, Ranger and Warlocks getting CON casting. Primal spell casters using magical strength and durability feels right. Artificers literally hammering their magic into shape feels right. Warlocks channeling their patron's magic through their bodies as a conduit also feels like it could be appropriate for the right patron (especially Hexblades).
As for balance, I'd balance Con by using the concept of Biotics from Mass Effect. In ME biotics are the equivalent of magical powers. They involve channeling raw energy through lymph nodes infused with a special substance called Element Zero to increase or decrease the physical mass or energy reactivity of nearby objects (including enemies). The problem for Biotics is that since all the energy is from internal energy stores users must consume _insane_ levels of nutrients (5000+ calories per day are common) and they _auto-cannibalize_ when their bodies don't have enough to cast a spell.
I'd balance by having players get some early spellcasting levels like a Warlock. But higher level spells begin costing health, and you can substitute health damage by instead taking a level of exhaustion. Want to cast Wish? It's going to be a big sacrifice for that 9th level spell.
While those types of sacrifices might be fun narratively they aren’t balanced. Remember by being a Con caster you have already sacrificed skills and have a lower saving throw in what ever mental stat you switched from (even if you still have proficiency with that stat). All you have gained is additional hp. If you now must spend the additional hp to cast spells, how is that balanced? It’s actually just an all around loss.
This is a bad interpretation of of HP.
Martial classes deal with this exact HP trade every round in late stage D&D for drastically lesser results. Damage via exhaustion or some other debilitating horse-crap. On the other hand casters get a fraction of this "harm" for balancing the ability to literally rewrite existence. The internal balance within a gaming session isn't even using the same language much less an actual discrepancy in the math.
I'd be fine with Artificer, Druid, Ranger and Warlocks getting CON casting. Primal spell casters using magical strength and durability feels right. Artificers literally hammering their magic into shape feels right. Warlocks channeling their patron's magic through their bodies as a conduit also feels like it could be appropriate for the right patron (especially Hexblades).
As for balance, I'd balance Con by using the concept of Biotics from Mass Effect. In ME biotics are the equivalent of magical powers. They involve channeling raw energy through lymph nodes infused with a special substance called Element Zero to increase or decrease the physical mass or energy reactivity of nearby objects (including enemies). The problem for Biotics is that since all the energy is from internal energy stores users must consume _insane_ levels of nutrients (5000+ calories per day are common) and they _auto-cannibalize_ when their bodies don't have enough to cast a spell.
I'd balance by having players get some early spellcasting levels like a Warlock. But higher level spells begin costing health, and you can substitute health damage by instead taking a level of exhaustion. Want to cast Wish? It's going to be a big sacrifice for that 9th level spell.
While those types of sacrifices might be fun narratively they aren’t balanced. Remember by being a Con caster you have already sacrificed skills and have a lower saving throw in what ever mental stat you switched from (even if you still have proficiency with that stat). All you have gained is additional hp. If you now must spend the additional hp to cast spells, how is that balanced? It’s actually just an all around loss.
You're only sacrificing +3 to skills at level 8+, as it is very simple to get a 14 in a secondary stat. But you are gaining the freedom to focus on any skills of your choice with that secondary stat. Also casting with HP / Exhaustion is rather unbalanced because Greater Restoration, Aid, all the temp HP spells / abilities, and high level healing spells exist.
I'd be fine with Artificer, Druid, Ranger and Warlocks getting CON casting. Primal spell casters using magical strength and durability feels right. Artificers literally hammering their magic into shape feels right. Warlocks channeling their patron's magic through their bodies as a conduit also feels like it could be appropriate for the right patron (especially Hexblades).
As for balance, I'd balance Con by using the concept of Biotics from Mass Effect. In ME biotics are the equivalent of magical powers. They involve channeling raw energy through lymph nodes infused with a special substance called Element Zero to increase or decrease the physical mass or energy reactivity of nearby objects (including enemies). The problem for Biotics is that since all the energy is from internal energy stores users must consume _insane_ levels of nutrients (5000+ calories per day are common) and they _auto-cannibalize_ when their bodies don't have enough to cast a spell.
I'd balance by having players get some early spellcasting levels like a Warlock. But higher level spells begin costing health, and you can substitute health damage by instead taking a level of exhaustion. Want to cast Wish? It's going to be a big sacrifice for that 9th level spell.
While those types of sacrifices might be fun narratively they aren’t balanced. Remember by being a Con caster you have already sacrificed skills and have a lower saving throw in what ever mental stat you switched from (even if you still have proficiency with that stat). All you have gained is additional hp. If you now must spend the additional hp to cast spells, how is that balanced? It’s actually just an all around loss.
This is a bad interpretation of of HP.
Martial classes deal with this exact HP trade every round in late stage D&D for drastically lesser results. Damage via exhaustion or some other debilitating horse-crap. On the other hand casters get a fraction of this "harm" for balancing the ability to literally rewrite existence. The internal balance within a gaming session isn't even using the same language much less an actual discrepancy in the math.
Martial classes don’t have attacks the spend their HP, and this was never a Martial vs Caster debate. We are talking about using Con as a casting stat so the only thing to balance it against is using other casting stats.
I'd be fine with Artificer, Druid, Ranger and Warlocks getting CON casting. Primal spell casters using magical strength and durability feels right. Artificers literally hammering their magic into shape feels right. Warlocks channeling their patron's magic through their bodies as a conduit also feels like it could be appropriate for the right patron (especially Hexblades).
As for balance, I'd balance Con by using the concept of Biotics from Mass Effect. In ME biotics are the equivalent of magical powers. They involve channeling raw energy through lymph nodes infused with a special substance called Element Zero to increase or decrease the physical mass or energy reactivity of nearby objects (including enemies). The problem for Biotics is that since all the energy is from internal energy stores users must consume _insane_ levels of nutrients (5000+ calories per day are common) and they _auto-cannibalize_ when their bodies don't have enough to cast a spell.
I'd balance by having players get some early spellcasting levels like a Warlock. But higher level spells begin costing health, and you can substitute health damage by instead taking a level of exhaustion. Want to cast Wish? It's going to be a big sacrifice for that 9th level spell.
While those types of sacrifices might be fun narratively they aren’t balanced. Remember by being a Con caster you have already sacrificed skills and have a lower saving throw in what ever mental stat you switched from (even if you still have proficiency with that stat). All you have gained is additional hp. If you now must spend the additional hp to cast spells, how is that balanced? It’s actually just an all around loss.
You're only sacrificing +3 to skills at level 8+, as it is very simple to get a 14 in a secondary stat. But you are gaining the freedom to focus on any skills of your choice with that secondary stat. Also casting with HP / Exhaustion is rather unbalanced because Greater Restoration, Aid, all the temp HP spells / abilities, and high level healing spells exist.
You could theoretically choose whatever you want as a secondary stat, but let’s be honest it almost has to be Dex. Even if you have increased HP that’s really only enough to survive one or two more hits. You are better off trying to not get hit. Also a major difference a lot of people don’t talk about is that the difference between how D20 test and HP work is vast. Having a +1 to a D20 test could literally be the difference between complete success or complete failure. Depending on how much damage is being dealt their is no difference between having 1 hp and 8hp remaining if the enemy is doing 10 hp of damage. HP has less effect on the game overall, but when it matters it really matters. So I understand why people think Con is this superior Stat, but their is definitely a penalty to switching any classes casting stat to Con. That’s really my only point. It’s not just an automatic improvement as some have claimed. There is something gained and something loss in any Spellcasting stat transitions. There is nothing “Broken” about Con Casting.
I'd be fine with Artificer, Druid, Ranger and Warlocks getting CON casting. Primal spell casters using magical strength and durability feels right. Artificers literally hammering their magic into shape feels right. Warlocks channeling their patron's magic through their bodies as a conduit also feels like it could be appropriate for the right patron (especially Hexblades).
As for balance, I'd balance Con by using the concept of Biotics from Mass Effect. In ME biotics are the equivalent of magical powers. They involve channeling raw energy through lymph nodes infused with a special substance called Element Zero to increase or decrease the physical mass or energy reactivity of nearby objects (including enemies). The problem for Biotics is that since all the energy is from internal energy stores users must consume _insane_ levels of nutrients (5000+ calories per day are common) and they _auto-cannibalize_ when their bodies don't have enough to cast a spell.
I'd balance by having players get some early spellcasting levels like a Warlock. But higher level spells begin costing health, and you can substitute health damage by instead taking a level of exhaustion. Want to cast Wish? It's going to be a big sacrifice for that 9th level spell.
While those types of sacrifices might be fun narratively they aren’t balanced. Remember by being a Con caster you have already sacrificed skills and have a lower saving throw in what ever mental stat you switched from (even if you still have proficiency with that stat). All you have gained is additional hp. If you now must spend the additional hp to cast spells, how is that balanced? It’s actually just an all around loss.
You're only sacrificing +3 to skills at level 8+, as it is very simple to get a 14 in a secondary stat. But you are gaining the freedom to focus on any skills of your choice with that secondary stat. Also casting with HP / Exhaustion is rather unbalanced because Greater Restoration, Aid, all the temp HP spells / abilities, and high level healing spells exist.
You could theoretically choose whatever you want as a secondary stat, but let’s be honest it almost has to be Dex. Even if you have increased HP that’s really only enough to survive one or two more hits. You are better off trying to not get hit. Also a major difference a lot of people don’t talk about is that the difference between how D20 test and HP work is vast. Having a +1 to a D20 test could literally be the difference between complete success or complete failure. Depending on how much damage is being dealt their is no difference between having 1 hp and 8hp remaining if the enemy is doing 10 hp of damage. HP has less effect on the game overall, but when it matters it really matters. So I understand why people think Con is this superior Stat, but their is definitely a penalty to switching any classes casting stat to Con. That’s really my only point. It’s not just an automatic improvement as some have claimed. There is something gained and something loss in any Spellcasting stat transitions. There is nothing “Broken” about Con Casting.
I find it easier to have a concrete example rather than talking in the abstract:
Sorcerer (now) 1st level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 16 | HP: 8 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +5 5th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 18 | HP: 32 Con Save: +5 Cha Skills: +7 9th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 20 | HP: 56 Con Save: +6 Cha Skills: +9
Sorcerer (Con casting) 1st level: 8, 14, 16, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 9 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +4 5th level: 8, 14, 18, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 38 Con Save: +7 Cha Skills: +5 9th level: 8, 14, 20, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 67 Con Save: +9 Cha Skills: +6
Looking at that, without a doubt I'd rather take the Con-casting Sorcerer in all situations. Because concentration saves are more common than Charisma checks, and I'm getting more HP on top as a bonus. Sure the Cha skills aren't as high but there are so many things that can buff skill checks - I mean just having a member of the party cast Guidance on me would get the expected check back up to equal or above the Cha-sorcerer, but clever RP arguments, Enhance Ability, Bardic Inspiration, an ally Helping me, Guidance, Expertise etc... can all more than make up for the slightly lower CHA.
I'd be fine with Artificer, Druid, Ranger and Warlocks getting CON casting. Primal spell casters using magical strength and durability feels right. Artificers literally hammering their magic into shape feels right. Warlocks channeling their patron's magic through their bodies as a conduit also feels like it could be appropriate for the right patron (especially Hexblades).
As for balance, I'd balance Con by using the concept of Biotics from Mass Effect. In ME biotics are the equivalent of magical powers. They involve channeling raw energy through lymph nodes infused with a special substance called Element Zero to increase or decrease the physical mass or energy reactivity of nearby objects (including enemies). The problem for Biotics is that since all the energy is from internal energy stores users must consume _insane_ levels of nutrients (5000+ calories per day are common) and they _auto-cannibalize_ when their bodies don't have enough to cast a spell.
I'd balance by having players get some early spellcasting levels like a Warlock. But higher level spells begin costing health, and you can substitute health damage by instead taking a level of exhaustion. Want to cast Wish? It's going to be a big sacrifice for that 9th level spell.
While those types of sacrifices might be fun narratively they aren’t balanced. Remember by being a Con caster you have already sacrificed skills and have a lower saving throw in what ever mental stat you switched from (even if you still have proficiency with that stat). All you have gained is additional hp. If you now must spend the additional hp to cast spells, how is that balanced? It’s actually just an all around loss.
You're only sacrificing +3 to skills at level 8+, as it is very simple to get a 14 in a secondary stat. But you are gaining the freedom to focus on any skills of your choice with that secondary stat. Also casting with HP / Exhaustion is rather unbalanced because Greater Restoration, Aid, all the temp HP spells / abilities, and high level healing spells exist.
You could theoretically choose whatever you want as a secondary stat, but let’s be honest it almost has to be Dex. Even if you have increased HP that’s really only enough to survive one or two more hits. You are better off trying to not get hit. Also a major difference a lot of people don’t talk about is that the difference between how D20 test and HP work is vast. Having a +1 to a D20 test could literally be the difference between complete success or complete failure. Depending on how much damage is being dealt their is no difference between having 1 hp and 8hp remaining if the enemy is doing 10 hp of damage. HP has less effect on the game overall, but when it matters it really matters. So I understand why people think Con is this superior Stat, but their is definitely a penalty to switching any classes casting stat to Con. That’s really my only point. It’s not just an automatic improvement as some have claimed. There is something gained and something loss in any Spellcasting stat transitions. There is nothing “Broken” about Con Casting.
I find it easier to have a concrete example rather than talking in the abstract:
Sorcerer (now) 1st level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 16 | HP: 8 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +5 5th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 18 | HP: 32 Con Save: +5 Cha Skills: +7 9th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 20 | HP: 56 Con Save: +6 Cha Skills: +9
Sorcerer (Con casting) 1st level: 8, 14, 16, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 9 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +4 5th level: 8, 14, 18, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 38 Con Save: +7 Cha Skills: +5 9th level: 8, 14, 20, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 67 Con Save: +9 Cha Skills: +6
Looking at that, without a doubt I'd rather take the Con-casting Sorcerer in all situations. Because concentration saves are more common than Charisma checks, and I'm getting more HP on top as a bonus. Sure the Cha skills aren't as high but there are so many things that can buff skill checks - I mean just having a member of the party cast Guidance on me would get the expected check back up to equal or above the Cha-sorcerer, but clever RP arguments, Enhance Ability, Bardic Inspiration, an ally Helping me, Guidance, Expertise etc... can all more than make up for the slightly lower CHA.
I doubt you would, if you only opt for 14 con when you run cha, even though you could have more, you really don't value con at all. Your 5th choice teir feat is more valuable than one save 1 con mod to you.
there is way more ways to mitigate/avoid/regen HP than there is to boost stats. You got movement, CC, temp hp, AC Stats, heals, damage reduction, disadvantage, rerolls, obscurment, cover, rebuffs, buffs, hit dice, rest. Also, the value of HP is curved, the goal is to have just enough HP, not a whole lot of extra hp. this is one of the basic things people try to minimize when min maxing.
Concentration saves matter less than persuation and intimidation checks. Those can avoid fights, get information, items, allies, etc. It matters less than wis checks, those can prevent fights, ambushes, find treasure, discern lies. How many con checks and damage avoided by getting a surprise round VS being ambushed, for the whole team?
but at the end of the day, as you have shown, its really just a subjective choice, 3 con, or 3 of some other stat. Which is far from OP. Its actually fairly balanced. AND its only 3 difference if you really want it to be. You could have it be zero difference to 2 difference by base stat distro, or selecting different feats.
there is no real legs to this con is OP versus other Stats biz, and I actually doubt you would choose the CON version over the CHA version, since it will give random wasted stats, as you won't be picking feats that fit as neatly into your side stats, and you don't even really care that much about getting extra con when you main cha.
the whole issue of CON is a big deal for meleers, who tend to be designed with fewer other methods of mitigating damage, and for MAD characters for whom every stat point is a choice of their 1st or second best feats.
I'd be fine with Artificer, Druid, Ranger and Warlocks getting CON casting. Primal spell casters using magical strength and durability feels right. Artificers literally hammering their magic into shape feels right. Warlocks channeling their patron's magic through their bodies as a conduit also feels like it could be appropriate for the right patron (especially Hexblades).
As for balance, I'd balance Con by using the concept of Biotics from Mass Effect. In ME biotics are the equivalent of magical powers. They involve channeling raw energy through lymph nodes infused with a special substance called Element Zero to increase or decrease the physical mass or energy reactivity of nearby objects (including enemies). The problem for Biotics is that since all the energy is from internal energy stores users must consume _insane_ levels of nutrients (5000+ calories per day are common) and they _auto-cannibalize_ when their bodies don't have enough to cast a spell.
I'd balance by having players get some early spellcasting levels like a Warlock. But higher level spells begin costing health, and you can substitute health damage by instead taking a level of exhaustion. Want to cast Wish? It's going to be a big sacrifice for that 9th level spell.
While those types of sacrifices might be fun narratively they aren’t balanced. Remember by being a Con caster you have already sacrificed skills and have a lower saving throw in what ever mental stat you switched from (even if you still have proficiency with that stat). All you have gained is additional hp. If you now must spend the additional hp to cast spells, how is that balanced? It’s actually just an all around loss.
You're only sacrificing +3 to skills at level 8+, as it is very simple to get a 14 in a secondary stat. But you are gaining the freedom to focus on any skills of your choice with that secondary stat. Also casting with HP / Exhaustion is rather unbalanced because Greater Restoration, Aid, all the temp HP spells / abilities, and high level healing spells exist.
You could theoretically choose whatever you want as a secondary stat, but let’s be honest it almost has to be Dex. Even if you have increased HP that’s really only enough to survive one or two more hits. You are better off trying to not get hit. Also a major difference a lot of people don’t talk about is that the difference between how D20 test and HP work is vast. Having a +1 to a D20 test could literally be the difference between complete success or complete failure. Depending on how much damage is being dealt their is no difference between having 1 hp and 8hp remaining if the enemy is doing 10 hp of damage. HP has less effect on the game overall, but when it matters it really matters. So I understand why people think Con is this superior Stat, but their is definitely a penalty to switching any classes casting stat to Con. That’s really my only point. It’s not just an automatic improvement as some have claimed. There is something gained and something loss in any Spellcasting stat transitions. There is nothing “Broken” about Con Casting.
I find it easier to have a concrete example rather than talking in the abstract:
Sorcerer (now) 1st level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 16 | HP: 8 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +5 5th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 18 | HP: 32 Con Save: +5 Cha Skills: +7 9th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 20 | HP: 56 Con Save: +6 Cha Skills: +9
Sorcerer (Con casting) 1st level: 8, 14, 16, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 9 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +4 5th level: 8, 14, 18, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 38 Con Save: +7 Cha Skills: +5 9th level: 8, 14, 20, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 67 Con Save: +9 Cha Skills: +6
Looking at that, without a doubt I'd rather take the Con-casting Sorcerer in all situations. Because concentration saves are more common than Charisma checks, and I'm getting more HP on top as a bonus. Sure the Cha skills aren't as high but there are so many things that can buff skill checks - I mean just having a member of the party cast Guidance on me would get the expected check back up to equal or above the Cha-sorcerer, but clever RP arguments, Enhance Ability, Bardic Inspiration, an ally Helping me, Guidance, Expertise etc... can all more than make up for the slightly lower CHA.
Concentration checks only happen in combat, and only if you get hit. If you are making more than Cha checks clearly your group favors combat over other pillars. Also no one should be able to cast guidance in the middle of your conversation to persuade someone. In combat Bardic inspiration works on saves as well so that’s a wash. Reality is I can’t convince you to change which one you would choose, that’s a personal choice, but those numbers show that Con casting isn’t “Broken” as many have claimed. At 1st level the hp bonus hasn’t increased your survivability. Most things use attack rolls to deal damage. Since both have the same AC 1 hp hasn’t moved you out of the two hits range before you go down. Based on fighting CR1/2 or CR 1 creatures. At level 5 Con Sorc might have moved into a 4 hit range instead of 3 hit range of Cha Sorc compared to taking damage from CR4 and CR 5 monsters. At 9th CR 8 and CR 9 a lot of monsters aren’t dealing much more damage per hit than weaker monsters, but they have more attacks per turn and/or do other things than just attacks. Then there are some that deal 28 damage on hit and swing twice a turn. I’m not sure how to fairly equate the difference of 11 hp between the Cha Sorc and Con Sorc, but it feels like it is 1 maybe 2 hits depending on what you are fighting. Not getting hit is far more important. Also because many monsters have multiple attacks on a turn surviving one more hit isn’t a guarantee of being up on your next turn. If it guaranteed that I would say Con was broken, but it doesn’t.
don't hate the Playa, hate the game. (forum backend could obscure nested quotes if they wanted)
And users can trim them
From a front end design standpoint, the people who made the forum dont think it matters that much(or they prefer it). Subjectively, each poster will decide on their own what situation is better. The forum design itself seems to value the full context of every post being shown, so thats mostly what you will see.
Nah, spellcasting is more than good enough as it is. No spellcasting class needs an objectively better casting stat, and none of them need to be flexible.
Nah, spellcasting is more than good enough as it is. No spellcasting class needs an objectively better casting stat, and none of them need to be flexible.
It’s Con is only subjectively better. Which is why we are having the conversation. You are correct, none of them need to be flexible. Technically nothing needs to be updated at all. Since they are updating the game anyway we discussing our opinions. Thank you sharing your subjective opinion. Your vote is noted and many people agree with you.
don't hate the Playa, hate the game. (forum backend could obscure nested quotes if they wanted)
And users can trim them
From a front end design standpoint, the people who made the forum dont think it matters that much(or they prefer it). Subjectively, each poster will decide on their own what situation is better. The forum design itself seems to value the full context of every post being shown, so thats mostly what you will see.
Regardless, users can trim them, or hide them themselves like I just did.
don't hate the Playa, hate the game. (forum backend could obscure nested quotes if they wanted)
And users can trim them
From a front end design standpoint, the people who made the forum dont think it matters that much(or they prefer it). Subjectively, each poster will decide on their own what situation is better. The forum design itself seems to value the full context of every post being shown, so thats mostly what you will see.
That doesn’t change what I said: Users perpetuate the “wall of quoted text” through carelessness. The forum design wanting preservation is outside of the context of: users improving their signal to noise ratio by eliminating parts of the quote that aren’t directly related to their response/point. What the forum designers wanted isn’t relevant aside from having given us the option to trim the chaff.
Regardless, users can trim them, or hide them themselves like I just did.
While that’s useful, it’s also unnecessary. That little black arrow next to your name (in my quote above) is a link back to your comment. Anyone who wants to see the full earlier un-trimmed post can click that to see the full comment.
This is a bad interpretation of of HP.
Martial classes deal with this exact HP trade every round in late stage D&D for drastically lesser results. Damage via exhaustion or some other debilitating horse-crap. On the other hand casters get a fraction of this "harm" for balancing the ability to literally rewrite existence. The internal balance within a gaming session isn't even using the same language much less an actual discrepancy in the math.
You're only sacrificing +3 to skills at level 8+, as it is very simple to get a 14 in a secondary stat. But you are gaining the freedom to focus on any skills of your choice with that secondary stat. Also casting with HP / Exhaustion is rather unbalanced because Greater Restoration, Aid, all the temp HP spells / abilities, and high level healing spells exist.
Martial classes don’t have attacks the spend their HP, and this was never a Martial vs Caster debate. We are talking about using Con as a casting stat so the only thing to balance it against is using other casting stats.
You could theoretically choose whatever you want as a secondary stat, but let’s be honest it almost has to be Dex. Even if you have increased HP that’s really only enough to survive one or two more hits. You are better off trying to not get hit. Also a major difference a lot of people don’t talk about is that the difference between how D20 test and HP work is vast. Having a +1 to a D20 test could literally be the difference between complete success or complete failure. Depending on how much damage is being dealt their is no difference between having 1 hp and 8hp remaining if the enemy is doing 10 hp of damage. HP has less effect on the game overall, but when it matters it really matters. So I understand why people think Con is this superior Stat, but their is definitely a penalty to switching any classes casting stat to Con. That’s really my only point. It’s not just an automatic improvement as some have claimed. There is something gained and something loss in any Spellcasting stat transitions. There is nothing “Broken” about Con Casting.
I find it easier to have a concrete example rather than talking in the abstract:
Sorcerer (now)
1st level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 16 | HP: 8 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +5
5th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 18 | HP: 32 Con Save: +5 Cha Skills: +7
9th level: 8, 14, 14, 10, 12, 20 | HP: 56 Con Save: +6 Cha Skills: +9
Sorcerer (Con casting)
1st level: 8, 14, 16, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 9 Con Save: +4 Cha Skills: +4
5th level: 8, 14, 18, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 38 Con Save: +7 Cha Skills: +5
9th level: 8, 14, 20, 10, 12, 14 | HP: 67 Con Save: +9 Cha Skills: +6
Looking at that, without a doubt I'd rather take the Con-casting Sorcerer in all situations. Because concentration saves are more common than Charisma checks, and I'm getting more HP on top as a bonus. Sure the Cha skills aren't as high but there are so many things that can buff skill checks - I mean just having a member of the party cast Guidance on me would get the expected check back up to equal or above the Cha-sorcerer, but clever RP arguments, Enhance Ability, Bardic Inspiration, an ally Helping me, Guidance, Expertise etc... can all more than make up for the slightly lower CHA.
I doubt you would, if you only opt for 14 con when you run cha, even though you could have more, you really don't value con at all. Your 5th choice teir feat is more valuable than one save 1 con mod to you.
there is way more ways to mitigate/avoid/regen HP than there is to boost stats. You got movement, CC, temp hp, AC Stats, heals, damage reduction, disadvantage, rerolls, obscurment, cover, rebuffs, buffs, hit dice, rest. Also, the value of HP is curved, the goal is to have just enough HP, not a whole lot of extra hp. this is one of the basic things people try to minimize when min maxing.
Concentration saves matter less than persuation and intimidation checks. Those can avoid fights, get information, items, allies, etc. It matters less than wis checks, those can prevent fights, ambushes, find treasure, discern lies. How many con checks and damage avoided by getting a surprise round VS being ambushed, for the whole team?
but at the end of the day, as you have shown, its really just a subjective choice, 3 con, or 3 of some other stat. Which is far from OP. Its actually fairly balanced. AND its only 3 difference if you really want it to be. You could have it be zero difference to 2 difference by base stat distro, or selecting different feats.
there is no real legs to this con is OP versus other Stats biz, and I actually doubt you would choose the CON version over the CHA version, since it will give random wasted stats, as you won't be picking feats that fit as neatly into your side stats, and you don't even really care that much about getting extra con when you main cha.
the whole issue of CON is a big deal for meleers, who tend to be designed with fewer other methods of mitigating damage, and for MAD characters for whom every stat point is a choice of their 1st or second best feats.
Concentration checks only happen in combat, and only if you get hit. If you are making more than Cha checks clearly your group favors combat over other pillars. Also no one should be able to cast guidance in the middle of your conversation to persuade someone. In combat Bardic inspiration works on saves as well so that’s a wash. Reality is I can’t convince you to change which one you would choose, that’s a personal choice, but those numbers show that Con casting isn’t “Broken” as many have claimed. At 1st level the hp bonus hasn’t increased your survivability. Most things use attack rolls to deal damage. Since both have the same AC 1 hp hasn’t moved you out of the two hits range before you go down. Based on fighting CR1/2 or CR 1 creatures. At level 5 Con Sorc might have moved into a 4 hit range instead of 3 hit range of Cha Sorc compared to taking damage from CR4 and CR 5 monsters. At 9th CR 8 and CR 9 a lot of monsters aren’t dealing much more damage per hit than weaker monsters, but they have more attacks per turn and/or do other things than just attacks. Then there are some that deal 28 damage on hit and swing twice a turn. I’m not sure how to fairly equate the difference of 11 hp between the Cha Sorc and Con Sorc, but it feels like it is 1 maybe 2 hits depending on what you are fighting. Not getting hit is far more important. Also because many monsters have multiple attacks on a turn surviving one more hit isn’t a guarantee of being up on your next turn. If it guaranteed that I would say Con was broken, but it doesn’t.
Holy quote chains Batman.
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Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
don't hate the Playa, hate the game. (forum backend could obscure nested quotes if they wanted)
And users can trim them
From a front end design standpoint, the people who made the forum dont think it matters that much(or they prefer it). Subjectively, each poster will decide on their own what situation is better. The forum design itself seems to value the full context of every post being shown, so thats mostly what you will see.
Nah, spellcasting is more than good enough as it is. No spellcasting class needs an objectively better casting stat, and none of them need to be flexible.
It’s Con is only subjectively better. Which is why we are having the conversation. You are correct, none of them need to be flexible. Technically nothing needs to be updated at all. Since they are updating the game anyway we discussing our opinions. Thank you sharing your subjective opinion. Your vote is noted and many people agree with you.
Regardless, users can trim them, or hide them themselves like I just did.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That doesn’t change what I said: Users perpetuate the “wall of quoted text” through carelessness. The forum design wanting preservation is outside of the context of: users improving their signal to noise ratio by eliminating parts of the quote that aren’t directly related to their response/point. What the forum designers wanted isn’t relevant aside from having given us the option to trim the chaff.
While that’s useful, it’s also unnecessary. That little black arrow next to your name (in my quote above) is a link back to your comment. Anyone who wants to see the full earlier un-trimmed post can click that to see the full comment.
I disagree with much of your analysis but its off topic, so I'll drop it here