Bards have no need for such a feature though, as they have access to both comprehend languages and tongues as standard if you want them; they could certainly have a ribbon that eliminates the need to spend spell choices on these later on by doing the same thing, but it seems kind of redundant for them. College of Eloquence already kind of has it though. But Bard isn't exactly a class that's lacking in out of combat utility, unlike the Monk.
It's no more redundant than Paladins getting both Lay on Hands and cure wounds. Having a spell that does X doesn't mean you can't also get a feature that does X, or vice-versa. What matters to me is whether the ability fits the class theming - and thematically speaking, a bunch of monks don't even talk!
In general I'd say that monks should get some extra out of combat utility... but tongue of the sun and the moon wasn't it, except possibly as an option in a package of divination type abilities. Some more common tropes for martial artist include:
Fighting/acting while blindfolded (blindsight, either as the blind fighting style or some more specific ability). That's also a combat-useful ability, so might as well cost DP.
Sensing hostility, 'killing intent', or some such (possibly more general sense emotions). Possibly something that gives effects based on your insight skill.
The above often spills over into object reading type abilities, as well as the ability to detect spirits.
Bards have no need for such a feature though, as they have access to both comprehend languages and tongues as standard if you want them; they could certainly have a ribbon that eliminates the need to spend spell choices on these later on by doing the same thing, but it seems kind of redundant for them. College of Eloquence already kind of has it though. But Bard isn't exactly a class that's lacking in out of combat utility, unlike the Monk.
It's no more redundant than Paladins getting both Lay on Hands and cure wounds. Having a spell that does X doesn't mean you can't also get a feature that does X, or vice-versa. What matters to me is whether the ability fits the class theming - and thematically speaking, a bunch of monks don't even talk!
But those monks that don't talk still communicate with each other and other people just fine almost like some kind of non-language based universal communication...
In general I'd say that monks should get some extra out of combat utility... but tongue of the sun and the moon wasn't it, except possibly as an option in a package of divination type abilities. Some more common tropes for martial artist include:
Fighting/acting while blindfolded (blindsight, either as the blind fighting style or some more specific ability). That's also a combat-useful ability, so might as well cost DP.
Sensing hostility, 'killing intent', or some such (possibly more general sense emotions). Possibly something that gives effects based on your insight skill.
The above often spills over into object reading type abilities, as well as the ability to detect spirits.
But those monks that don't talk still communicate with each other and other people just fine almost like some kind of non-language based universal communication...
Bards have no need for such a feature though, as they have access to both comprehend languages and tongues as standard if you want them; they could certainly have a ribbon that eliminates the need to spend spell choices on these later on by doing the same thing, but it seems kind of redundant for them. College of Eloquence already kind of has it though. But Bard isn't exactly a class that's lacking in out of combat utility, unlike the Monk.
It's no more redundant than Paladins getting both Lay on Hands and cure wounds. Having a spell that does X doesn't mean you can't also get a feature that does X, or vice-versa. What matters to me is whether the ability fits the class theming - and thematically speaking, a bunch of monks don't even talk!
Paladin healing isn't really redundant, it's additive as both methods are finite so having both means you can do more healing overall. Having two or more ways to communicate without shared languages isn't the same as you're rarely going to need more than one, so the only benefit is not having to prepare the equivalent spell(s). Similar to a Draconic Bloodline sorcerer not needing to know fly once they can get their own wings, though the spell has some advantages (faster speed, can cast on others).
In general I'd say that monks should get some extra out of combat utility... but tongue of the sun and the moon wasn't it, except possibly as an option in a package of divination type abilities. Some more common tropes for martial artist include:
Fighting/acting while blindfolded (blindsight, either as the blind fighting style or some more specific ability). That's also a combat-useful ability, so might as well cost DP.
Sensing hostility, 'killing intent', or some such (possibly more general sense emotions). Possibly something that gives effects based on your insight skill.
The above often spills over into object reading type abilities, as well as the ability to detect spirits.
Blindsight is already a low-level feature that Fighters can get. (If anything, Blindsight would make sense as part of a Shadows Monk kit, but we know OneD&D Monks are all about fewer options.)
Giving the base class abilities keyed to a specific skill effectively forces every Monk to pick that specific skill, and those abilities are what the Insight skill already does.
If you want specialized abilities like what you describe, that's for subclasses. Every other base class gains skill-boosting features that help in general situations, not extremely specific cases. The solution is extremely simple, especially in the context of other features other classes receive, yet there is this bizarre obsession with thinking what the Monk "needs" is to be good at a small handful of things and useless in every other context.
I even made a thread with ideas for balancing existing and new skill-focused features for each class, which no one commented on so I'm guessing no one could find anything to complain about, but here is the idea I had for Monks: simple and fits the idea of Monks drawing upon their wisdom and training to push themselves to excel:
Monk: Clear Mind - Gain one Monk class skill, and can add Wisdom modifier to a skill check if proficient PB times per day, or 1 Discipline Point for extra uses.
Monk: Clear Mind - Gain one Monk class skill, and can add Wisdom modifier to a skill check if proficient PB times per day, or 1 Discipline Point for extra uses.
That's way too generous, monks get back all their DP on a SR which means on a low-combat day they can pretty safely use this on every single skill check they make, and by tier 3/4 even in dungeon crawls they will have DP to spare and can use this on every single skill check. In contrast a fighter/barbarian only gets back 1 Second Wind (or rage) on a SR so they really can't afford to use Tactical Mind regularly.
Paladin healing isn't really redundant, it's additive as both methods are finite so having both means you can do more healing overall. Having two or more ways to communicate without shared languages isn't the same as you're rarely going to need more than one, so the only benefit is not having to prepare the equivalent spell(s). Similar to a Draconic Bloodline sorcerer not needing to know fly once they can get their own wings, though the spell has some advantages (faster speed, can cast on others).
Tongues is finite too, and comprehend languages has a time cost if ritual cast - so by your logic, a Bardic universal speech feature wouldn't be redundant either. If nothing else, it would free up two of their limited spells known. So I stand by what I said.
It would even have a combat use - enabling them to use their language-dependent spells on any target - which again, monks don't have.
here is the idea I had for Monks: simple and fits the idea of Monks drawing upon their wisdom and training to push themselves to excel:
Monk: Clear Mind - Gain one Monk class skill, and can add Wisdom modifier to a skill check if proficient PB times per day, or 1 Discipline Point for extra uses.
I don't mind this one, but I would restrict it to monk class skills, or a specified list. I could buy a monk adding Wis to Acrobatics or Stealth, but not, say, Arcana or Performance. (Also, too many uses as Agile stated.)
Also I think Monks should get Perception on their list.
I'd love to see people do more with martial classes OOC. Monks are often the most able to "explore the space" ooc. You are in a 300' tower, and you can't see the ceiling. The Monk can run up there and scope it out. They can also get places normal classes can't without flying, spells, or teleport abilities.
I've also seen them use Drunk style as a herbalist sort of class, and make basic 1d4 healing pots ooc. A sort of free goodberry on a good roll. If you want them to be able to do more, I'd love to see them control elements, like put out fires, or control water, etc.
I really like the commune with the dead stuff, but that's cleric territory.
I'd love to see people do more with martial classes OOC. Monks are often the most able to "explore the space" ooc. You are in a 300' tower, and you can't see the ceiling. The Monk can run up there and scope it out. They can also get places normal classes can't without flying, spells, or teleport abilities.
I've also seen them use Drunk style as a herbalist sort of class, and make basic 1d4 healing pots ooc. A sort of free goodberry on a good roll. If you want them to be able to do more, I'd love to see them control elements, like put out fires, or control water, etc.
I really like the commune with the dead stuff, but that's cleric territory.
Indeed. Outside of combat, monk's speed, maneuverability and lack of armor make them great at the exploration pillar; that's where they shine, while they are only situationally good at the social interaction pillar (e.g. eavesdropping or detecting falsehoods.). Paladins meanwhile are the opposite; they're great at the interaction pillar outside of combat, but weak at exploration unless the specific challenge is suited for overland travel using a mount. Both of these are okay.
Oh I don't know. It looks like they removed some things people probably didn't care about and added better things. I like being able to now deflect not just missiles but melee weapons and later it includes energy attacks. I also like the now flexible use of the bonus actions. As you pointed out they took away the immunities to poison and diseases, but just from sheer will we can shrug off the effects poison, charm and frightened without spending DP (discipline Points).
Since the Monk originated back in the 70s as part of the Cleric/Druid family, it looks like the developers decided to take people's advice to make it more martial and less utility/non-combat oriented and not DP hungry. This is true when you look at the proposed sublclasses. In Warrior Shadows, their use of the silence shut down spell casters was excellent. But they ripped out everything and kept the Darkness spell, Minor Illusion and Darkvision, but now you could see in your own darkness and it moves with you so as not to interfere with your party members too much. Neither costs DP and Darkvision is now an innate ability. More importantly the subclass counts as spell caster and will qualify for the Magic Initiate Feat that's attached to the proposed Hermit background.
Oh I don't know. It looks like they removed some things people probably didn't care about and added better things. I like being able to now deflect not just missiles but melee weapons and later it includes energy attacks. I also like the now flexible use of the bonus actions. As you pointed out they took away the immunities to poison and diseases, but just from sheer will we can shrug off the effects poison, charm and frightened without spending DP (discipline Points).
Since the Monk originated back in the 70s as part of the Cleric/Druid family, it looks like the developers decided to take people's advice to make it more martial and less utility/non-combat oriented and not DP hungry. This is true when you look at the proposed sublclasses. In Warrior Shadows, their use of the silence shut down spell casters was excellent. But they ripped out everything and kept the Darkness spell, Minor Illusion and Darkvision, but now you could see in your own darkness and it moves with you so as not to interfere with your party members too much. Neither costs DP and Darkvision is now an innate ability. More importantly the subclass counts as spell caster and will qualify for the Magic Initiate Feat that's attached to the proposed Hermit background.
Sorry I know I went beyond what you were asking.
Monk was never very utility/non-combat oriented in this edition, but they did make them a little less so in the UAs. Magic Initiate never had a prerequisite so anyone can take it no matter the subclass. But there is a feat that requires you to be able to cast a spell, I don’t remember which one, that shadow does allow you to qualify for.
They did remove some things and added better things but they added better things to Fighters and Barbarians in addition to the skill boosts so monk seems like it still lost in that department.
Monk was never very utility/non-combat oriented in this edition, but they did make them a little less so in the UAs. Magic Initiate never had a prerequisite so anyone can take it no matter the subclass. But there is a feat that requires you to be able to cast a spell, I don’t remember which one, that shadow does allow you to qualify for.
I know people commonly take that with Way of Shadows to get Devil's Sight (see through darkness) but it's technically not eligible for Way of Shadow as they don't actually gain either the Spellcasting of Pact Magic feature, they just gain the ability to cast specific spells via other means. In fact the old feature specifically lets you "duplicate the effect of certain spells" so you're still not really a spellcaster as such.
The UA6 Warrior of Shadow wouldn't be eligible either, but they also don't need Devil's Sight to see through their own darkness anymore so that's a feat choice saved at least.
In terms of Monk's out of combat ability though, I think what's annoyed people is that many of us have felt that 5e Monk should have had a bit more out of combat utility, and instead both versions of the UA got rid of the few special out of combat abilities we had, which is the exact opposite.
would monk have a better shot at out of combat utility if it had a better defined relationship with the setting after UA removed (without replacing) the asian influences? could monk be better defined as daredevils or thrill seekers, climbing to high places and walking the walls when others would never bother? and, although the saying goes "fools and smoke are both fond of high places," maybe there's more wisdom in sating one's curiosity and testing one's limits (as opposed to an acrobatic bard doing it for the attention). it's a little late to ask, obviously. however, if that context were a given then what utility would one such as that expect to have in their back pocket?
* advantage to escape restraints. this character has experience being detained after one too many trespasses through construction sites, "inaccessible" battlements, windmills... * bonus to checks involving staying upright, not falling prone. this character might find an earthquake more interesting than frightening. * intuition regarding distances/heights. some dms stick to "you can certainly try" when gauging whether a jump is feasible, but now they'd be instructed to tell you directly. * when adjacent to a wall, character may choose to spend 5ft of movement to begin their jump five feet above where they would have (which may result in additional distance/height). * other daredevils leave marks of graffiti up high not unlike a written thieves cant. these can include warnings of hazards, schedule of watchmen, poems, or a name for reputation sake.
...is this going somewhere / nowhere?
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It's no more redundant than Paladins getting both Lay on Hands and cure wounds. Having a spell that does X doesn't mean you can't also get a feature that does X, or vice-versa. What matters to me is whether the ability fits the class theming - and thematically speaking, a bunch of monks don't even talk!
In general I'd say that monks should get some extra out of combat utility... but tongue of the sun and the moon wasn't it, except possibly as an option in a package of divination type abilities. Some more common tropes for martial artist include:
But those monks that don't talk still communicate with each other and other people just fine almost like some kind of non-language based universal communication...
I would take any of these over TotSaM.
With each other maybe.
Paladin healing isn't really redundant, it's additive as both methods are finite so having both means you can do more healing overall. Having two or more ways to communicate without shared languages isn't the same as you're rarely going to need more than one, so the only benefit is not having to prepare the equivalent spell(s). Similar to a Draconic Bloodline sorcerer not needing to know fly once they can get their own wings, though the spell has some advantages (faster speed, can cast on others).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Blindsight is already a low-level feature that Fighters can get. (If anything, Blindsight would make sense as part of a Shadows Monk kit, but we know OneD&D Monks are all about fewer options.)
Giving the base class abilities keyed to a specific skill effectively forces every Monk to pick that specific skill, and those abilities are what the Insight skill already does.
If you want specialized abilities like what you describe, that's for subclasses. Every other base class gains skill-boosting features that help in general situations, not extremely specific cases. The solution is extremely simple, especially in the context of other features other classes receive, yet there is this bizarre obsession with thinking what the Monk "needs" is to be good at a small handful of things and useless in every other context.
I even made a thread with ideas for balancing existing and new skill-focused features for each class, which no one commented on so I'm guessing no one could find anything to complain about, but here is the idea I had for Monks: simple and fits the idea of Monks drawing upon their wisdom and training to push themselves to excel:
That's way too generous, monks get back all their DP on a SR which means on a low-combat day they can pretty safely use this on every single skill check they make, and by tier 3/4 even in dungeon crawls they will have DP to spare and can use this on every single skill check. In contrast a fighter/barbarian only gets back 1 Second Wind (or rage) on a SR so they really can't afford to use Tactical Mind regularly.
Tongues is finite too, and comprehend languages has a time cost if ritual cast - so by your logic, a Bardic universal speech feature wouldn't be redundant either. If nothing else, it would free up two of their limited spells known. So I stand by what I said.
It would even have a combat use - enabling them to use their language-dependent spells on any target - which again, monks don't have.
I don't mind this one, but I would restrict it to monk class skills, or a specified list. I could buy a monk adding Wis to Acrobatics or Stealth, but not, say, Arcana or Performance. (Also, too many uses as Agile stated.)
Also I think Monks should get Perception on their list.
I'd love to see people do more with martial classes OOC. Monks are often the most able to "explore the space" ooc. You are in a 300' tower, and you can't see the ceiling. The Monk can run up there and scope it out. They can also get places normal classes can't without flying, spells, or teleport abilities.
I've also seen them use Drunk style as a herbalist sort of class, and make basic 1d4 healing pots ooc. A sort of free goodberry on a good roll. If you want them to be able to do more, I'd love to see them control elements, like put out fires, or control water, etc.
I really like the commune with the dead stuff, but that's cleric territory.
Indeed. Outside of combat, monk's speed, maneuverability and lack of armor make them great at the exploration pillar; that's where they shine, while they are only situationally good at the social interaction pillar (e.g. eavesdropping or detecting falsehoods.). Paladins meanwhile are the opposite; they're great at the interaction pillar outside of combat, but weak at exploration unless the specific challenge is suited for overland travel using a mount. Both of these are okay.
Oh I don't know. It looks like they removed some things people probably didn't care about and added better things. I like being able to now deflect not just missiles but melee weapons and later it includes energy attacks. I also like the now flexible use of the bonus actions. As you pointed out they took away the immunities to poison and diseases, but just from sheer will we can shrug off the effects poison, charm and frightened without spending DP (discipline Points).
Since the Monk originated back in the 70s as part of the Cleric/Druid family, it looks like the developers decided to take people's advice to make it more martial and less utility/non-combat oriented and not DP hungry. This is true when you look at the proposed sublclasses. In Warrior Shadows, their use of the silence shut down spell casters was excellent. But they ripped out everything and kept the Darkness spell, Minor Illusion and Darkvision, but now you could see in your own darkness and it moves with you so as not to interfere with your party members too much. Neither costs DP and Darkvision is now an innate ability. More importantly the subclass counts as spell caster and will qualify for the Magic Initiate Feat that's attached to the proposed Hermit background.
Sorry I know I went beyond what you were asking.
Monk was never very utility/non-combat oriented in this edition, but they did make them a little less so in the UAs. Magic Initiate never had a prerequisite so anyone can take it no matter the subclass. But there is a feat that requires you to be able to cast a spell, I don’t remember which one, that shadow does allow you to qualify for.
They did remove some things and added better things but they added better things to Fighters and Barbarians in addition to the skill boosts so monk seems like it still lost in that department.
Are you maybe thinking of Eldritch Adept?
I know people commonly take that with Way of Shadows to get Devil's Sight (see through darkness) but it's technically not eligible for Way of Shadow as they don't actually gain either the Spellcasting of Pact Magic feature, they just gain the ability to cast specific spells via other means. In fact the old feature specifically lets you "duplicate the effect of certain spells" so you're still not really a spellcaster as such.
The UA6 Warrior of Shadow wouldn't be eligible either, but they also don't need Devil's Sight to see through their own darkness anymore so that's a feat choice saved at least.
In terms of Monk's out of combat ability though, I think what's annoyed people is that many of us have felt that 5e Monk should have had a bit more out of combat utility, and instead both versions of the UA got rid of the few special out of combat abilities we had, which is the exact opposite.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Spell Sniper is what I was thinking of. Only requires that you can cast a spell
would monk have a better shot at out of combat utility if it had a better defined relationship with the setting after UA removed (without replacing) the asian influences? could monk be better defined as daredevils or thrill seekers, climbing to high places and walking the walls when others would never bother? and, although the saying goes "fools and smoke are both fond of high places," maybe there's more wisdom in sating one's curiosity and testing one's limits (as opposed to an acrobatic bard doing it for the attention). it's a little late to ask, obviously. however, if that context were a given then what utility would one such as that expect to have in their back pocket?
* advantage to escape restraints. this character has experience being detained after one too many trespasses through construction sites, "inaccessible" battlements, windmills...
* bonus to checks involving staying upright, not falling prone. this character might find an earthquake more interesting than frightening.
* intuition regarding distances/heights. some dms stick to "you can certainly try" when gauging whether a jump is feasible, but now they'd be instructed to tell you directly.
* when adjacent to a wall, character may choose to spend 5ft of movement to begin their jump five feet above where they would have (which may result in additional distance/height).
* other daredevils leave marks of graffiti up high not unlike a written thieves cant. these can include warnings of hazards, schedule of watchmen, poems, or a name for reputation sake.
...is this going somewhere / nowhere?