If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
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So there are so many comments/posts and I'm struggling to get motivation to read through them.....
Anyone able to say if they've given a hint /date/timeline when this will go up on beyond's character builder as play test material? It'd make it easy to play test if it where on builder like school of invention etc
If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
Personally I think the Turret does a decent enough job scaling. Its AC of 18 is rather decent, it is immune to most spells since most spells only affects creatures (the turret is a magical object) and its abilities are not bad. One is burning hands as a bonus action and the other is a 2d8 push back.
If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
Personally I think the Turret does a decent enough job scaling. Its AC of 18 is rather decent, it is immune to most spells since most spells only affects creatures (the turret is a magical object) and its abilities are not bad. One is burning hands as a bonus action and the other is a 2d8 push back.
Burning Hands does 3d6 and scales with spell level. This does 1d8 from levels 1 to 20. So at higher levels, I'd rather just ignore the feature, as there are better things I could be doing with my turns than summoning a weak turret. And why on earth would anything intelligent (like a spellcaster) want to target it. It doesn't even get opportunity attacks.
I'm not sure that was the best example, considering burning hands is an action and the turrets abilities are bonus actions. Granted you have to spend an action first to get it up an running. I think comparing it to the alternative might be a better day example.
For example, the alternative is probably a bonus action hand crossbow expert shot with Arcane Weapon. That will probably deal 2d6 + Dex Mod, or about 9 to 11 damage on average depending on Dex modifier.
The Force Ballistea deals 2d8 force damage and push back, or around 9 damage on average. So you are giving up around 2 damage for a push back.
The Flamethrower is 1d8 fire damage on AoE, so it is really difficult to calculate how much damage since it situationally depends on how many targets it can hit, but it if can hit 2 creatures (and they fail their dex saves) it can deal 9 fire damage.
The Defense turret is arguably the best since it can constantly refresh temp HPs on allies in a 10 foot radius (including itself), which is further improved at level 14 when it grants half cover.
Actually 2d6+3 = 10-12 average. And remember you can also create a +2 hand crossbow, so that increases it to 12-14. And if you're a sharpshooter, that's 22-24.
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Actually 2d6+3 = 10-12 average. And remember you can also create a +2 hand crossbow, so that increases it to 12-14. And if you're a sharpshooter, that's 22-24.
Well I was calculating between a 2 to 4 Dex, and at level 14 you'd be a fool to not have it out for the +2 ac. You may not us its activation often, but I do feel the defense turret is the best.
Not to mention at 14th level you can summon two turrets and use one bonus action to activate both, meaning they can be 4d8 force damage.
If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
Personally I think the Turret does a decent enough job scaling. Its AC of 18 is rather decent, it is immune to most spells since most spells only affects creatures (the turret is a magical object) and its abilities are not bad. One is burning hands as a bonus action and the other is a 2d8 push back.
Burning Hands does 3d6 and scales with spell level. This does 1d8 from levels 1 to 20. So at higher levels, I'd rather just ignore the feature, as there are better things I could be doing with my turns than summoning a weak turret. And why on earth would anything intelligent (like a spellcaster) want to target it. It doesn't even get opportunity attacks.
Unless you literally need to run for your life I don’t see why the turret wouldn’t be deployed?
Dungeon crawling you are happy to move at 15ft, during rests it is guarding, and even travelling it should be deployed on a cart.
Also it is 1d8 cone but 2d8 single target and both of those are doubled at level 14. Can you provide example of more than 4d8 with a bonus action? That’s more than Xbow expert BA of 1d8+Dex .
If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
Personally I think the Turret does a decent enough job scaling. Its AC of 18 is rather decent, it is immune to most spells since most spells only affects creatures (the turret is a magical object) and its abilities are not bad. One is burning hands as a bonus action and the other is a 2d8 push back.
Burning Hands does 3d6 and scales with spell level. This does 1d8 from levels 1 to 20. So at higher levels, I'd rather just ignore the feature, as there are better things I could be doing with my turns than summoning a weak turret. And why on earth would anything intelligent (like a spellcaster) want to target it. It doesn't even get opportunity attacks.
Burning hands is a 1st level spell and thuis requires a spell slot to cast. A higher level slot to do more damage.
Once set up, the turret does 1d8+ Int mod every round as a bonus action of the Artificer's part at no spell slot cost.
Also, from what I have seen so far, the Turret is an object, not a creature so it is largely immune to spells that target creatures and not objects. The turret is nice as it is. Also, you have 2 other options: force ballista and its defense turret.
Actually 2d6+3 = 10-12 average. And remember you can also create a +2 hand crossbow, so that increases it to 12-14. And if you're a sharpshooter, that's 22-24.
Well I was calculating between a 2 to 4 Dex, and at level 14 you'd be a fool to not have it out for the +2 ac. You may not us its activation often, but I do feel the defense turret is the best.
Not to mention at 14th level you can summon two turrets and use one bonus action to activate both, meaning they can be 4d8 force damage.
Okay... if I'm up against archers who are completely ignoring the fighters in their faces and firing attacks at me, then I could summon it for a little cover. Or I could cast haste for +2 AC or any of my multitude of defensive spells, including stoneskin, blur, blink, etc.
Summoning 2 turrets takes 2 actions. Whereas I could be doing 60-120 damage in those 2 actions.
If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
Personally I think the Turret does a decent enough job scaling. Its AC of 18 is rather decent, it is immune to most spells since most spells only affects creatures (the turret is a magical object) and its abilities are not bad. One is burning hands as a bonus action and the other is a 2d8 push back.
Burning Hands does 3d6 and scales with spell level. This does 1d8 from levels 1 to 20. So at higher levels, I'd rather just ignore the feature, as there are better things I could be doing with my turns than summoning a weak turret. And why on earth would anything intelligent (like a spellcaster) want to target it. It doesn't even get opportunity attacks.
Unless you literally need to run for your life I don’t see why the turret wouldn’t be deployed?
Dungeon crawling you are happy to move at 15ft, during rests it is guarding, and even travelling it should be deployed on a cart.
Also it is 1d8 cone but 2d8 single target and both of those are doubled at level 14. Can you provide example of more than 4d8 with a bonus action? That’s more than Xbow expert BA of 1d8+Dex .
I think having it deployed outside of combat is fine for a quick temp hp buff. But if I'm caught unaware the last thing I'd want to do around 8th level or higher is summon that thing. Especially 2 of them. I also only get 2 free deploys per long rest. And if there's no combat within 2 hours, I'm definitely not wasting a spell slot on it.
If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
Personally I think the Turret does a decent enough job scaling. Its AC of 18 is rather decent, it is immune to most spells since most spells only affects creatures (the turret is a magical object) and its abilities are not bad. One is burning hands as a bonus action and the other is a 2d8 push back.
Burning Hands does 3d6 and scales with spell level. This does 1d8 from levels 1 to 20. So at higher levels, I'd rather just ignore the feature, as there are better things I could be doing with my turns than summoning a weak turret. And why on earth would anything intelligent (like a spellcaster) want to target it. It doesn't even get opportunity attacks.
Burning hands is a 1st level spell and thuis requires a spell slot to cast. A higher level slot to do more damage.
Once set up, the turret does 1d8+ Int mod every round as a bonus action of the Artificer's part at no spell slot cost.
Also, from what I have seen so far, the Turret is an object, not a creature so it is largely immune to spells that target creatures and not objects. The turret is nice as it is. Also, you have 2 other options: force ballista and its defense turret.
It's not 1d8+INT or 2d8+INT. It's just 1d8 or 2d8. I've already been over the object vs creature bit. Any intelligent creature (6+) would just ignore it and go after you or your party.
And the cost is your first 1-2 turns of combat. You only get 1-2 free deploys (1 hr each) after that it costs spell slots. Like I said in my original post, if I could summon it as a bonus action, I wouldn't mind deploying it. But as an action, I'd rather just ignore the feature altogether in combat.
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Then don't play an Artillerist if you are going to ignore the core feature of the class. I think it scales well and more importantly fun and thematically flavorful.
And to be honest, most combats allow for some form of preparation. Granted there are cases were there is a surprise round, but with a turret lasting 10 minutes you could easily summon them right before combat starts.
It's not 1d8+INT or 2d8+INT. It's just 1d8 or 2d8. I've already been over the object vs creature bit. Any intelligent creature (6+) would just ignore it and go after you or your party.
And the cost is your first 1-2 turns of combat. You only get 1-2 free deploys (1 hr each) after that it costs spell slots. Like I said in my original post, if I could summon it as a bonus action, I wouldn't mind deploying it. But as an action, I'd rather just ignore the feature altogether in combat.
You are also forgetting that you can detonate it as a 3d6 force explosion in a 10-foot radius. That means in addition to whatever else it can do, for the cost of a spell slot, you can blow it up as an Action when you are done with it or have the need. Do I wish it remained around like an Alchemical Homunculus? Sure I do. But I find the Turret to be just as good, or better, in its own way. I see no reason to change it personally. If you don't like the flame thrower, just don't use that feature. Use the force turret or the defense turret.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Additionally I am not sure it is fair to use calculations that require 1 spell slot (Arcane Weapon) + 2 Feats (Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter) + 1 Infusion and then only use the base calculations for the turret. It is sort of an unfair comparison and feels more like confirmation bias to me.
In either offensive form, I just don't think the initial set up opportunity cost is worth it for the mediocre damage. If it scaled with level or only required a bonus action to create, then I'd have no problem with the feature at all. For a subclass that supposedly focuses on offensive capabilities (It's in the name for goodness sake: artillerist), it feels like it becomes obsolete too quickly.
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Additionally I am not sure it is fair to use calculations that require 1 spell slot (Arcane Weapon) + 2 Feats (Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter) + 1 Infusion and then only use the base calculations for the turret. It is sort of an unfair comparison and feels more like confirmation bias to me.
Oh my... a class that can build (infusions) and use (arcane armament and haste) those weapons building in such a way that they use weapons is somehow confirmation bias? I had no idea.
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What if it was a spell? At 14th level it could easily be:
As an action, for the next ten minutes all creatures within a 10 foot radius gets +2 AC and as a bonus action on each of your turns it can do one of the following:
1d8 fire in a 15 foot cone, 2d8 force and 5 foot push back, or 1d8 + int in temp HPs to all allies in a 10 foot range.
And as an action you can end the spell early to deal 3d8 force damage to all creatures in 10 foot radius.
All for a 1st level spell. Oh, and it doesn't require concentration, you can cast it twice and the bonus actions stack.
If the turret scaled with level (at a minimum) and you could create the turret as a bonus action and fire it in the same turn (as a bonus, pun intended), I could see playing an Artillerist. However, for a role such as an Artillerist, spending my first 1-2 turns setting up a weak turret doesn't seem like the best thing I could be doing with my turns. Maybe it's fine during the early levels, but later on it would be more productive to just forget the turret ability during combat altogether and do something else like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master with Arcane Weapon enhanced damage or casting Fireball.
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So there are so many comments/posts and I'm struggling to get motivation to read through them.....
Anyone able to say if they've given a hint /date/timeline when this will go up on beyond's character builder as play test material? It'd make it easy to play test if it where on builder like school of invention etc
Adam talks about the goal for the Artificer here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/391778063?t=28m30s
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Personally I think the Turret does a decent enough job scaling. Its AC of 18 is rather decent, it is immune to most spells since most spells only affects creatures (the turret is a magical object) and its abilities are not bad. One is burning hands as a bonus action and the other is a 2d8 push back.
Burning Hands does 3d6 and scales with spell level. This does 1d8 from levels 1 to 20. So at higher levels, I'd rather just ignore the feature, as there are better things I could be doing with my turns than summoning a weak turret. And why on earth would anything intelligent (like a spellcaster) want to target it. It doesn't even get opportunity attacks.
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I'm not sure that was the best example, considering burning hands is an action and the turrets abilities are bonus actions. Granted you have to spend an action first to get it up an running. I think comparing it to the alternative might be a better day example.
For example, the alternative is probably a bonus action hand crossbow expert shot with Arcane Weapon. That will probably deal 2d6 + Dex Mod, or about 9 to 11 damage on average depending on Dex modifier.
The Force Ballistea deals 2d8 force damage and push back, or around 9 damage on average. So you are giving up around 2 damage for a push back.
The Flamethrower is 1d8 fire damage on AoE, so it is really difficult to calculate how much damage since it situationally depends on how many targets it can hit, but it if can hit 2 creatures (and they fail their dex saves) it can deal 9 fire damage.
The Defense turret is arguably the best since it can constantly refresh temp HPs on allies in a 10 foot radius (including itself), which is further improved at level 14 when it grants half cover.
Actually 2d6+3 = 10-12 average. And remember you can also create a +2 hand crossbow, so that increases it to 12-14. And if you're a sharpshooter, that's 22-24.
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Well I was calculating between a 2 to 4 Dex, and at level 14 you'd be a fool to not have it out for the +2 ac. You may not us its activation often, but I do feel the defense turret is the best.
Not to mention at 14th level you can summon two turrets and use one bonus action to activate both, meaning they can be 4d8 force damage.
Unless you literally need to run for your life I don’t see why the turret wouldn’t be deployed?
Dungeon crawling you are happy to move at 15ft, during rests it is guarding, and even travelling it should be deployed on a cart.
Also it is 1d8 cone but 2d8 single target and both of those are doubled at level 14. Can you provide example of more than 4d8 with a bonus action? That’s more than Xbow expert BA of 1d8+Dex .
Burning hands is a 1st level spell and thuis requires a spell slot to cast. A higher level slot to do more damage.
Once set up, the turret does 1d8+ Int mod every round as a bonus action of the Artificer's part at no spell slot cost.
Also, from what I have seen so far, the Turret is an object, not a creature so it is largely immune to spells that target creatures and not objects. The turret is nice as it is. Also, you have 2 other options: force ballista and its defense turret.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Okay... if I'm up against archers who are completely ignoring the fighters in their faces and firing attacks at me, then I could summon it for a little cover. Or I could cast haste for +2 AC or any of my multitude of defensive spells, including stoneskin, blur, blink, etc.
Summoning 2 turrets takes 2 actions. Whereas I could be doing 60-120 damage in those 2 actions.
I think having it deployed outside of combat is fine for a quick temp hp buff. But if I'm caught unaware the last thing I'd want to do around 8th level or higher is summon that thing. Especially 2 of them. I also only get 2 free deploys per long rest. And if there's no combat within 2 hours, I'm definitely not wasting a spell slot on it.
It's not 1d8+INT or 2d8+INT. It's just 1d8 or 2d8. I've already been over the object vs creature bit. Any intelligent creature (6+) would just ignore it and go after you or your party.
And the cost is your first 1-2 turns of combat. You only get 1-2 free deploys (1 hr each) after that it costs spell slots. Like I said in my original post, if I could summon it as a bonus action, I wouldn't mind deploying it. But as an action, I'd rather just ignore the feature altogether in combat.
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Then don't play an Artillerist if you are going to ignore the core feature of the class. I think it scales well and more importantly fun and thematically flavorful.
And to be honest, most combats allow for some form of preparation. Granted there are cases were there is a surprise round, but with a turret lasting 10 minutes you could easily summon them right before combat starts.
I like the feature, thematically. Mechanically, I have an issue with it.
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You are also forgetting that you can detonate it as a 3d6 force explosion in a 10-foot radius. That means in addition to whatever else it can do, for the cost of a spell slot, you can blow it up as an Action when you are done with it or have the need. Do I wish it remained around like an Alchemical Homunculus? Sure I do. But I find the Turret to be just as good, or better, in its own way. I see no reason to change it personally. If you don't like the flame thrower, just don't use that feature. Use the force turret or the defense turret.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Additionally I am not sure it is fair to use calculations that require 1 spell slot (Arcane Weapon) + 2 Feats (Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter) + 1 Infusion and then only use the base calculations for the turret. It is sort of an unfair comparison and feels more like confirmation bias to me.
In either offensive form, I just don't think the initial set up opportunity cost is worth it for the mediocre damage. If it scaled with level or only required a bonus action to create, then I'd have no problem with the feature at all. For a subclass that supposedly focuses on offensive capabilities (It's in the name for goodness sake: artillerist), it feels like it becomes obsolete too quickly.
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Oh my... a class that can build (infusions) and use (arcane armament and haste) those weapons building in such a way that they use weapons is somehow confirmation bias? I had no idea.
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What if it was a spell? At 14th level it could easily be:
As an action, for the next ten minutes all creatures within a 10 foot radius gets +2 AC and as a bonus action on each of your turns it can do one of the following:
1d8 fire in a 15 foot cone, 2d8 force and 5 foot push back, or 1d8 + int in temp HPs to all allies in a 10 foot range.
And as an action you can end the spell early to deal 3d8 force damage to all creatures in 10 foot radius.
All for a 1st level spell. Oh, and it doesn't require concentration, you can cast it twice and the bonus actions stack.
Considering it doesn't scale at all and requires an action to cast, I'd probably stop using it by 8th level tops.
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1st level spells don't scale unless you up cast them. So do you use your first level spell slots?
Though it sounds like your alternative would rather have it to where you can spend spell slots to up it's power.