If we assume monk 17 and fighter 3 (might as well pick up a fighter archetype) you’d have a total of 12 astral arm attacks in one turn if you action surged. That would be 10d10 total if every attack hits (because astral self has a feature allowing you to add extra damage to one attack per turn equal to your martial arts die, and action surge doesn’t give additional bonus actions. So we have a total of 3 arm attacks, 3 bonus arm attacks, action surge for 3 more arm attacks. Add in your extra martial arts for wherever you see fit)
if you go battle master for the fighter archetype, you can toss in some superiority die. Champion will give you the better crit potential. Off the top of my head I don’t see much point in going with one of the other archetypes for this particular setup
Wait... how you manage with action surge 3 attacks? Because Astral Barragesays: Whenever you use the Extra Attack feature to attack twice, you can instead attack three times using your astral arms. Is action surge let you use Extra attack feature again? If that so, then you attack 4 times, not three.
Action surge usage let you make 1 attack, then you extra attack combines with astral barrage, so it would be 4 attacks. In total would be: 1ª action, attack, extra attack feature let you attack 3 times more, bonus action let you 3 attacks more, then you took action surge, use the 2ª action to attack, then extra attack feature activates again and make 3 new attacks... for a total of: 11 attacks with action surge and 7 attacks per turn.
Now, with Empowered Arms. Once on each of your turns when you hit a target with your astral arms, you can deal extra damage to the target equal to your Martial Arts die.
Imaging you successfully attack 11 times, you can extra damage each one of those... that would be 22d10+55 and the damage output would be a colosal amount of 275-165-77 necrotic or radiant damage.
What even is this math? You seem to be describing everything right(ish) then coming to a separate conclusion that doesn't match what you said.
You get 3 attacks with each action and bonus action. Action surge gives +1 action. 3+3+3=9 attacks. Where did the extra 2 attacks come from?
You correctly quote that empowered arms can be used once per turn, then use it 11 times in one turn.
Max damage is 10d10+45 with actions surge, 7d10+30 without.
Which means average the damage is 100 radiant/necrotic with surges and 68.5 radiant/necrotic. At that level that is uh...just ok for damage.
A heavy weapon fighter will be doing 6 attacks with surge = (2d6+5)* 6 = 72 damage.
This is not even accounting for any subclass benefits (Champion Crit Range, BattleMaster Dice, Samurai advantage/extra attack) or Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master damage.
So while its a decent amount of damage its in line with the level.
The main benefit of this is you can attempt to stun something 9 times!
. . .Champion will give you the better crit potential. Off the top of my head I don’t see much point in going with one of the other archetypes for this particular setup
So I am thinking half-orc champion 3/ Astral Monk X. Do I get heavy armor proficiency, or do any of the monk abilities make full plate off-limits? Orc-specific feat from XGE. What is my damage per round factoring critical hits? I love max-crit builds.
My formula for damage expanded w/crit = (1-crit%)(non-crit ave dmg) + (crit%)(crit ave dmg)
Does a champion 4 dip optimize better with, say, a sentinel build or pole-arm master? (4x arms with half-staffs as monk weapons?)
. . .Champion will give you the better crit potential. Off the top of my head I don’t see much point in going with one of the other archetypes for this particular setup
So I am thinking half-orc champion 3/ Astral Monk X. Do I get heavy armor proficiency, or do any of the monk abilities make full plate off-limits? Orc-specific feat from XGE. What is my damage per round factoring critical hits? I love max-crit builds.
My formula for damage expanded w/crit = (1-crit%)(non-crit ave dmg) + (crit%)(crit ave dmg)
Does a champion 4 dip optimize better with, say, a sentinel build or pole-arm master? (4x arms with half-staffs as monk weapons?)
You’ll have heavy armor proficiency because of the fighter levels, but the monk’s unarmored defense would give you a higher AC depending on if you go dex or str (you should be putting wis pretty high regardless, IMO)
i don’t know if the orcish fury feat would be applicable for the astral arm attacks. They’re counted as monk weapons, but there’s nothing stating that they are simple or martial weapons. Just going off of RAW I would say probably not
the champion 4 dip would prevent you from getting the benefits that astral self monks get at 17 which are all pretty great
. . .Champion will give you the better crit potential. Off the top of my head I don’t see much point in going with one of the other archetypes for this particular setup
So I am thinking half-orc champion 3/ Astral Monk X. Do I get heavy armor proficiency, or do any of the monk abilities make full plate off-limits? Orc-specific feat from XGE. What is my damage per round factoring critical hits? I love max-crit builds.
Does a champion 4 dip optimize better with, say, a sentinel build or pole-arm master? (4x arms with half-staffs as monk weapons?)
You get armor proficiency, but monks have several features that turn off while wearing armor. Including the martial Arts feature that cause monk weapons to deal different dice damage. The astral arms are monk weapons, but are not given a non-monk weapon damage die, so...
Crit damage's effect on average damage is difficult to calculate, but let me give it a shot. Let's see: (68.5) 7d10+30 normal, (100) 10d10+45 action surge, (140) 20d10+30 normal crit (savage attack), (204.5) 29d10+45 action surge crit. 10% crit (expanded range), 90% non-crit. Adjusted for crit chance average: 75.65 no-action surge, 110.45 with action surge.
I dont think quarterstaff would add much to your damage, you would be giving up a lot more by not getting the astral monk's level 17 feature.
. . .Champion will give you the better crit potential. Off the top of my head I don’t see much point in going with one of the other archetypes for this particular setup
So I am thinking half-orc champion 3/ Astral Monk X. Do I get heavy armor proficiency, or do any of the monk abilities make full plate off-limits? Orc-specific feat from XGE. What is my damage per round factoring critical hits? I love max-crit builds.
My formula for damage expanded w/crit = (1-crit%)(non-crit ave dmg) + (crit%)(crit ave dmg)
Does a champion 4 dip optimize better with, say, a sentinel build or pole-arm master? (4x arms with half-staffs as monk weapons?)
i don’t know if the orcish fury feat would be applicable for the astral arm attacks. They’re counted as monk weapons, but there’s nothing stating that they are simple or martial weapons. Just going off of RAW I would say probably not
From 5e OGL .pdf pg 26: "Martial Arts. At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property."
I would argue the words "which are" defines monk weapons as having the "simple melee" property. Question is, do the astral arms count as a two-handed weapon? They are literally two hands.
This actually gets into a more nuanced question about simple/ melee/ improvised/ monk weapons. I once wondered if my "monk weapon" could be "tooth and nail" and count "bite" and "claw" melee attacks as monk weapons, but then GM'd against myself. I do that sometimes.
i don’t know if the orcish fury feat would be applicable for the astral arm attacks. They’re counted as monk weapons, but there’s nothing stating that they are simple or martial weapons. Just going off of RAW I would say probably not
From 5e OGL .pdf pg 26: "Martial Arts. At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property."
I would argue the words "which are" defines monk weapons as having the "simple melee" property. Question is, do the astral arms count as a two-handed weapon? They are literally two hands.
Actually looking at astral arms description, there is some missing info that may come up in cases like these.
First simple weapons are monk weapons, but monk weapons are not all simple weapons. It is like how all squares are rectangles but all rectangles are not squares.
Based on the description we can assume they are melee weapons (because they have a reach, not a range). And aside from that, nothing. Since they are not specified as a simple, melee, natural, or improvised weapon, we have to assume it is none of those.
Based on the description we can assume they are melee weapons (because they have a reach, not a range). And aside from that, nothing. Since they are not specified as a simple, melee, natural, or improvised weapon, we have to assume it is none of those.
This was my thought process as well when I read the description of the astral arms. The designers behind the subclass would probably be able to clarify, but as far as I can tell the astral arms still would not be applicable for orcish fury
They can probably make grapple attacks with the way they’re written, but it doesn’t state that they can interact with mundane objects. I would theorize this as something like, when your astral arms hit or grapple an opponent, what you’re actually attacking is the ki of that creature and that’s why your astral arms are able to interact with them
Overall however, I would leave this to the judgment of the DM
In that case, what makes Ki... Ki? Do objects have Ki? If not, what about constructs? Do certain things have Ki, or certain things not? If Ki is in everything alive, do your arms work on anything undead?
I know you said it’s up to the DM, but I’m nitpicking here :)
In that case, what makes Ki... Ki? Do objects have Ki? If not, what about constructs? Do certain things have Ki, or certain things not? If Ki is in everything alive, do your arms work on anything undead?
I know you said it’s up to the DM, but I’m nitpicking here :)
No problems there. It always best to kept the mental wheel turning, especially with D&D lol
i would argue undead and constructs have some form of ki flowing through them that gives them life. I wouldn’t view ki as a neutral force, so it could be argued that there is positive and negative ki, with negative ki being the force that gives undead creatures their life force
I feel like astral monk can be used to represent a green lantern type character. maybe change the damage from radient/necrotic to force. on that note I don't really see why astral arms has a radiant or necrotic option, in my opinion "astral" represents the vast space between radiant and necrotic, good and evil rather than one or the other, or both as some players may interpret.
regardless I think it seems like a pretty fun subclass that fills a previously vacant niche.
I feel like astral monk can be used to represent a green lantern type character. maybe change the damage from radient/necrotic to force. on that note I don't really see why astral arms has a radiant or necrotic option, in my opinion "astral" represents the vast space between radiant and necrotic, good and evil rather than one or the other, or both as some players may interpret.
The use of radiant / necrotic damage is likely to represent the "true self" of the monk, as both tend to represent the positive and negative energies of the soul...celestials, for example, often encompass goodness, and the radiant arms lend towards that alignment. Necrotic energy, while not strictly evil, embodies entropy and decay.
This is actually quite good for roleplaying...having a choice between the two, one could have inner turmoil represented by necrotic arms...but over the course of the campaign, maybe the monk gains enlightenment, and the arms turn radiant.
An aasimar would be an interesting race...their inner light manifested as radiant arms, or even a Fallen aasimar having necrotic arms.
I had a character who was possessed by a wraith; necrotic arms would be an interesting method of having this wraith "reaching" out.
I have the same interpretation of good and evil and their association with radiant and necrotic influence. But I also feel that radiant and to a lesser degree necrotic damage is associated with the divine. This is precisely the case with barbarian path of the zealot, where they have a choice, presumably associated with a specific devine entity. Way of the astral self, on the other hand, indicates an internal struggle, an independent journey to reach beyond the usual limits of existence. I think a Great Old One warlock, has some things in common, connecting to the beyond and such. They have a psychic damage feel sure but I should point out Evard's Black Tentacles is a GOO patron spell and it has a bit of a astral arms feel to it.
All this to say I think radiant and necrotic damage for the way of astral self just isn't a good fit; in my opinion. I like force, i could accept psychic... meh!
A quick question about deflect energy, how does it work against multiple damage spells like eldritch blast?
Can you deflect all the damage from the spell (max 4 blasts) or can you only deflect 1 blast? The former seems over powered, but the latter means that a warlock's cantrip is the best way to take out an 11th level monk, which seems a bit crazy.
RAW there is no limit to how may times the monk can deflect energy; each instance of those damage types would be mitigated.
if you are looking for limiting factors then the fact that both arms and visage must be is one. Another is that there are few damage types this ability doesn't work on.
it probably should have a limit, perhaps monk level +wis I would say is about right. it is a significant defence against 1-5 opponents but wouldn't make the monk essentially invulnerability to a firing squad 30 lvl 20 warlocks using eldritch blast.
RAW there is no limit to how may times the monk can deflect energy; each instance of those damage types would be mitigated.
if you are looking for limiting factors then the fact that both arms and visage must be is one. Another is that there are few damage types this ability doesn't work on.
it probably should have a limit, perhaps monk level +wis I would say is about right. it is a significant defence against 1-5 opponents but wouldn't make the monk essentially invulnerability to a firing squad 30 lvl 20 warlocks using eldritch blast.
You can only deflect energy once per turn as a reaction, so you’d only be able to stop one Eldritch blast. If any other EBs hit, they’ll do damage
Deflect Energy. When you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or force damage, you can use your reaction to deflect it. When you do so, the damage you take is reduced by 1d10 + your Wisdom modifier + your monk level
Which means average the damage is 100 radiant/necrotic with surges and 68.5 radiant/necrotic. At that level that is uh...just ok for damage.
A heavy weapon fighter will be doing 6 attacks with surge = (2d6+5)* 6 = 72 damage.
This is not even accounting for any subclass benefits (Champion Crit Range, BattleMaster Dice, Samurai advantage/extra attack) or Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master damage.
So while its a decent amount of damage its in line with the level.
The main benefit of this is you can attempt to stun something 9 times!
This is for sure the Stun Monk build.
So I am thinking half-orc champion 3/ Astral Monk X. Do I get heavy armor proficiency, or do any of the monk abilities make full plate off-limits? Orc-specific feat from XGE. What is my damage per round factoring critical hits? I love max-crit builds.
My formula for damage expanded w/crit = (1-crit%)(non-crit ave dmg) + (crit%)(crit ave dmg)
Does a champion 4 dip optimize better with, say, a sentinel build or pole-arm master? (4x arms with half-staffs as monk weapons?)
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You’ll have heavy armor proficiency because of the fighter levels, but the monk’s unarmored defense would give you a higher AC depending on if you go dex or str (you should be putting wis pretty high regardless, IMO)
i don’t know if the orcish fury feat would be applicable for the astral arm attacks. They’re counted as monk weapons, but there’s nothing stating that they are simple or martial weapons. Just going off of RAW I would say probably not
the champion 4 dip would prevent you from getting the benefits that astral self monks get at 17 which are all pretty great
You get armor proficiency, but monks have several features that turn off while wearing armor. Including the martial Arts feature that cause monk weapons to deal different dice damage. The astral arms are monk weapons, but are not given a non-monk weapon damage die, so...
Crit damage's effect on average damage is difficult to calculate, but let me give it a shot. Let's see: (68.5) 7d10+30 normal, (100) 10d10+45 action surge, (140) 20d10+30 normal crit (savage attack), (204.5) 29d10+45 action surge crit. 10% crit (expanded range), 90% non-crit. Adjusted for crit chance average: 75.65 no-action surge, 110.45 with action surge.
I dont think quarterstaff would add much to your damage, you would be giving up a lot more by not getting the astral monk's level 17 feature.
From 5e OGL .pdf pg 26: "Martial Arts. At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property."
I would argue the words "which are" defines monk weapons as having the "simple melee" property. Question is, do the astral arms count as a two-handed weapon? They are literally two hands.
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This actually gets into a more nuanced question about simple/ melee/ improvised/ monk weapons. I once wondered if my "monk weapon" could be "tooth and nail" and count "bite" and "claw" melee attacks as monk weapons, but then GM'd against myself. I do that sometimes.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/45782-improvised-weapons-vs-monk-weapons
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Actually looking at astral arms description, there is some missing info that may come up in cases like these.
First simple weapons are monk weapons, but monk weapons are not all simple weapons. It is like how all squares are rectangles but all rectangles are not squares.
Based on the description we can assume they are melee weapons (because they have a reach, not a range). And aside from that, nothing. Since they are not specified as a simple, melee, natural, or improvised weapon, we have to assume it is none of those.
This was my thought process as well when I read the description of the astral arms. The designers behind the subclass would probably be able to clarify, but as far as I can tell the astral arms still would not be applicable for orcish fury
So, can the astral arms.. hold things?
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
They can probably make grapple attacks with the way they’re written, but it doesn’t state that they can interact with mundane objects. I would theorize this as something like, when your astral arms hit or grapple an opponent, what you’re actually attacking is the ki of that creature and that’s why your astral arms are able to interact with them
Overall however, I would leave this to the judgment of the DM
In that case, what makes Ki... Ki? Do objects have Ki? If not, what about constructs? Do certain things have Ki, or certain things not? If Ki is in everything alive, do your arms work on anything undead?
I know you said it’s up to the DM, but I’m nitpicking here :)
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
No problems there. It always best to kept the mental wheel turning, especially with D&D lol
i would argue undead and constructs have some form of ki flowing through them that gives them life. I wouldn’t view ki as a neutral force, so it could be argued that there is positive and negative ki, with negative ki being the force that gives undead creatures their life force
As far as Rules as written goes, the arms are weapons that can be used for attacks. Anything else is up to DM.
I feel like astral monk can be used to represent a green lantern type character. maybe change the damage from radient/necrotic to force. on that note I don't really see why astral arms has a radiant or necrotic option, in my opinion "astral" represents the vast space between radiant and necrotic, good and evil rather than one or the other, or both as some players may interpret.
regardless I think it seems like a pretty fun subclass that fills a previously vacant niche.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
The use of radiant / necrotic damage is likely to represent the "true self" of the monk, as both tend to represent the positive and negative energies of the soul...celestials, for example, often encompass goodness, and the radiant arms lend towards that alignment. Necrotic energy, while not strictly evil, embodies entropy and decay.
This is actually quite good for roleplaying...having a choice between the two, one could have inner turmoil represented by necrotic arms...but over the course of the campaign, maybe the monk gains enlightenment, and the arms turn radiant.
An aasimar would be an interesting race...their inner light manifested as radiant arms, or even a Fallen aasimar having necrotic arms.
I had a character who was possessed by a wraith; necrotic arms would be an interesting method of having this wraith "reaching" out.
I have the same interpretation of good and evil and their association with radiant and necrotic influence. But I also feel that radiant and to a lesser degree necrotic damage is associated with the divine. This is precisely the case with barbarian path of the zealot, where they have a choice, presumably associated with a specific devine entity. Way of the astral self, on the other hand, indicates an internal struggle, an independent journey to reach beyond the usual limits of existence. I think a Great Old One warlock, has some things in common, connecting to the beyond and such. They have a psychic damage feel sure but I should point out Evard's Black Tentacles is a GOO patron spell and it has a bit of a astral arms feel to it.
All this to say I think radiant and necrotic damage for the way of astral self just isn't a good fit; in my opinion. I like force, i could accept psychic... meh!
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
A quick question about deflect energy, how does it work against multiple damage spells like eldritch blast?
Can you deflect all the damage from the spell (max 4 blasts) or can you only deflect 1 blast? The former seems over powered, but the latter means that a warlock's cantrip is the best way to take out an 11th level monk, which seems a bit crazy.
RAW there is no limit to how may times the monk can deflect energy; each instance of those damage types would be mitigated.
if you are looking for limiting factors then the fact that both arms and visage must be is one. Another is that there are few damage types this ability doesn't work on.
it probably should have a limit, perhaps monk level +wis I would say is about right. it is a significant defence against 1-5 opponents but wouldn't make the monk essentially invulnerability to a firing squad 30 lvl 20 warlocks using eldritch blast.
edit; incorrect, I misread, see below
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
You can only deflect energy once per turn as a reaction, so you’d only be able to stop one Eldritch blast. If any other EBs hit, they’ll do damage
Deflect Energy. When you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or force damage, you can use your reaction to deflect it. When you do so, the damage you take is reduced by 1d10 + your Wisdom modifier + your monk level
lol yep I missed that middle part saying "reaction" which was exactly what I was looking for when I reviewed... lol oh my!
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.