So the new Poisoner feat in the new UA this year (se below). As an Alchemist main I really like how this sounds. Because its basically elemental bypass for poison. And well aclhemsit get a bonus to poisons (though there aren't that many poison spells in general). So it does really help alchemist be more consistent, most of the immune folks are deamonds or undead--which make sense. I'd have to use fire (though quite a few deamons are also immune/resistence to that...) But outside of that it means I'd have poison or fire for most combats.
Bonus Action poison application is pretty neat, can get some use out of the Alchemy Jug's poison and other rpoisons you make.
50gp for profiency amount of DC 14 poison damage+poisoned could be neat. That solid DC worries me a tad though. At early levels that is a pretty strong DC-later levels I feel like it won't really work too well. The cost is the reverse, expensive early and probably negligible later. It does kind of suck its all or nothing. I feel like I wish it was 1/2 damage on a save. Or. that there was no cost-but you only got Profiency amount per day with it. Or that you could increase the DC in some way. Just a little nudge somewhere...
I love the bonus action application though for poisons in general. for alchemists in particular they don't have a bonus action. So pulling a poison out and applying it is super duper fun. Even if they aren't great at weapons ---though mine has green flame blade because it fits real well. (booming blade would be smarter choice though) and because GFB was allowed the Savant bonus by a nice GM.
So. does anyone else have much thoughts about this feat? I really like the new UA feats in general. Though this one is pretty weaker than the rest--having cost money (for its own effect and for poisons in general), still has a lot of immunities (and relatively low amount of poison spells). Compared to getting an invocation, or spell points (though very limited), or the great Cooking Feat that is w hat is currenty competing on my Alchemist. Because alchemy and cooking are similiar!
I recall hearing somewhere that proficiency with a poisoner's kit allowed you to add your proficiency bonus to the save a target has to make for the poison. I couldn't find an official ruling on that of course, because Wizards hates any tools that aren't thieves' tools, but if that's the case than that DC14 save goes from "okay to meh" to "holy shit" at most any level of play. It'd be equivalent to calculating a spell DC with a +6 modifier from the governing skill, which is bonko.
Otherwise it's a solid first stab at making players actually care about poison, which is nice. Still needs work, though.
The bonus action application is nice though as written only applies to weapons, notably not ammunition, nor other objects. So in effect that means it only applies to basic poison, the feat's own "potent poison" and injury and potentially contact poisons listed in the DMG. Not applying to ammunition is pretty annoying.
It also leaves out ingested poisons (probably rarely ever used in combat) and inhaled poisons which sounds fine honestly.
This wording: "Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute, or until you hit with the weapon." Is potentially unclear. It should really include "whichever comes first" if that's the intent, because for selfish reasons I'm inclined to interpret that as "whichever comes later" and considering it as at least 1 minute of a poisoned weapon even if it hits multiple times within that minute or lingering past a minute until it hits at least once.
Being able to craft that many poisons at once within a short rest is kinda crazy by later levels but far, FAR better than requiring 20 days for a single vial of basic poison ala the PHB mundane item crafting rules, but maybe too fast otherwise? Maybe if it was written more like Alchemical Crafting in XGE and was considered "as part of a long rest. That feels a bit more reasonable.
I really, really hope though that this feat is more them seeking playtesting for redesigning how poisons work in general.
I recall hearing somewhere that proficiency with a poisoner's kit allowed you to add your proficiency bonus to the save a target has to make for the poison. I couldn't find an official ruling on that of course, because Wizards hates any tools that aren't thieves' tools, but if that's the case than that DC14 save goes from "okay to meh" to "holy shit" at most any level of play. It'd be equivalent to calculating a spell DC with a +6 modifier from the governing skill, which is bonko.
Otherwise it's a solid first stab at making players actually care about poison, which is nice. Still needs work, though.
I did a cursory search and couldn't find anything about poisoner's kit and poison DCs. Poison crafting rules in general are pretty vague. So, this was likely homebrew.
That being said, it's homebrew that I like. The biggest issue I have with this feat is that the DC doesn't scale at all and won't be particularly useful past the early levels; 14+Proficiency might be a bit high overall, but something like 12+proficiency seems like it would work well?
I did a cursory search and couldn't find anything about poisoner's kit and poison DCs. Poison crafting rules in general are pretty vague. So, this was likely homebrew.
That being said, it's homebrew that I like. The biggest issue I have with this feat is that the DC doesn't scale at all and won't be particularly useful past the early levels; 14+Proficiency might be a bit high overall, but something like 12+proficiency seems like it would work well?
I agree the DCs need help. The idea that you could add your Proficiency probably comes from the Poisoner's Kit section in the PHB. It says;
Poisoner's Kit. A poisoner's kit includes the vials, chemicals, and other equipment necessary for the creation of poisons. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to craft or use poisons.
I'm not sure if 'use poisons' means it affects the DC. It would be nice if it could.
...Huh. Use Poison is really specific verbage. How can you use poison that wouldn't intend to be applying to DC? Also.. it would make the profiency for that more reasonable to want. THough it would mean out of the gate the poison from that feat should be what dc 17? Thats... difficult at low level. Though 50gp is a massive amount of your coinage
I ssuppose if you had to make a roll to apply the poison to like.. a candle stick without getting it on you? Though I don't think 5E has a self poisoning clause like pathfinder does.
I'd like for the DC to have some ability to grow yep. I do not know enough about high level but max profiency bonus is 6 right? so the max DC if you add prof bonus to this would be 21? Is 21 a good or bad DC at high levels? It feels like a good one when I pause to think that the normal recipe for DCs on spells is 8 + ability (probably 5 baring things thta break the limit?) + 6 (profiency). but there might be higher level stuff that alters DCs. I dunno.
I do want the cost to go away pretty bad though. I don't like the prescident of "cost gp /rsources to use feat effects' idea. Even if its kind of already a thing with spell materials in a few limited cases. I'd rather they limit it to a Per day amount and prevent you from building up a storeload or something.
But the biggest reason to remove the cost is the fact that not all games assume fluid income. There are some games where they don't have gold in come just items,, and there are some where they get some gold but most things in general are given via missions etc. Making a class feature /feat cost gold to operate just kind of limits it in w eird ways. Similiar to the issue of Artificers not actually starting with Tinker Tools--despite having class abilities that require them in specific.
...Huh. Use Poison is really specific verbage. How can you use poison that wouldn't intend to be applying to DC? Also.. it would make the profiency for that more reasonable to want. THough it would mean out of the gate the poison from that feat should be what dc 17? Thats... difficult at low level. Though 50gp is a massive amount of your coinage
I ssuppose if you had to make a roll to apply the poison to like.. a candle stick without getting it on you? Though I don't think 5E has a self poisoning clause like pathfinder does.
I'd like for the DC to have some ability to grow yep. I do not know enough about high level but max profiency bonus is 6 right? so the max DC if you add prof bonus to this would be 21? Is 21 a good or bad DC at high levels? It feels like a good one when I pause to think that the normal recipe for DCs on spells is 8 + ability (probably 5 baring things thta break the limit?) + 6 (profiency). but there might be higher level stuff that alters DCs. I dunno.
I do want the cost to go away pretty bad though. I don't like the prescident of "cost gp /rsources to use feat effects' idea. Even if its kind of already a thing with spell materials in a few limited cases. I'd rather they limit it to a Per day amount and prevent you from building up a storeload or something.
But the biggest reason to remove the cost is the fact that not all games assume fluid income. There are some games where they don't have gold in come just items,, and there are some where they get some gold but most things in general are given via missions etc. Making a class feature /feat cost gold to operate just kind of limits it in w eird ways. Similiar to the issue of Artificers not actually starting with Tinker Tools--despite having class abilities that require them in specific.
Well, I know that at 20th level, characters get spell save DCs in the 20s if they're dedicated casters. Even the CON saves can be tricky, to say nothing of the number of monsters with poison immunity, which the feat understandably doesn't touch. I don't think saves based on adding Proficiency are excessive, really. Poisons are super rare, super expensive and you get one melee hit and 3 ranged. You need a level of reliability to offset all the downsides.
...Huh. Use Poison is really specific verbage. How can you use poison that wouldn't intend to be applying to DC? Also.. it would make the profiency for that more reasonable to want. THough it would mean out of the gate the poison from that feat should be what dc 17? Thats... difficult at low level. Though 50gp is a massive amount of your coinage
I ssuppose if you had to make a roll to apply the poison to like.. a candle stick without getting it on you? Though I don't think 5E has a self poisoning clause like pathfinder does.
I'd like for the DC to have some ability to grow yep. I do not know enough about high level but max profiency bonus is 6 right? so the max DC if you add prof bonus to this would be 21? Is 21 a good or bad DC at high levels? It feels like a good one when I pause to think that the normal recipe for DCs on spells is 8 + ability (probably 5 baring things thta break the limit?) + 6 (profiency). but there might be higher level stuff that alters DCs. I dunno.
I do want the cost to go away pretty bad though. I don't like the prescident of "cost gp /rsources to use feat effects' idea. Even if its kind of already a thing with spell materials in a few limited cases. I'd rather they limit it to a Per day amount and prevent you from building up a storeload or something.
But the biggest reason to remove the cost is the fact that not all games assume fluid income. There are some games where they don't have gold in come just items,, and there are some where they get some gold but most things in general are given via missions etc. Making a class feature /feat cost gold to operate just kind of limits it in w eird ways. Similiar to the issue of Artificers not actually starting with Tinker Tools--despite having class abilities that require them in specific.
Well, I know that at 20th level, characters get spell save DCs in the 20s if they're dedicated casters. Even the CON saves can be tricky, to say nothing of the number of monsters with poison immunity, which the feat understandably doesn't touch. I don't think saves based on adding Proficiency are excessive, really. Poisons are super rare, super expensive and you get one melee hit and 3 ranged. You need a level of reliability to offset all the downsides.
If you get your proficiency bonus to the save DC, pairing this feat with the Practiced Expert feat would be dangerous to enemies with Expertise: Poisoners Kit so a PC could have at level 4 if variant human. and even at level 20 a save DC of 24 would be hard to beat with the only real bonus would be applying the poisoned condition to your enemy. But I think the real value would be in the selling of said poisons to assassins and others such types.
If you get your proficiency bonus to the save DC, pairing this feat with the Practiced Expert feat would be dangerous to enemies with Expertise: Poisoners Kit so a PC could have at level 4 if variant human. and even at level 20 a save DC of 24 would be hard to beat with the only real bonus would be applying the poisoned condition to your enemy. But I think the real value would be in the selling of said poisons to assassins and others such types.
That would be insane :). You could deal with it saying that poisons or potions could not not be modified beyond flat proficiency.
granted the wording (As was pointed out in forums elsewhere) specifies ability checks. So wouldn't apply to DCs. since I don't think DCs are ability check based. Unless static DCs have some wording I don't know. (I know observant calls out passive perception itself)
Still I think it would be pretty darn cool if poison tool kit would let you increase the DCs. They'd just need to limit it. Most of the doubling effects state "Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you " or "your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses your proficiency with a tool." sort of wordding That wording means the actual profiency bonus itself is not doubled. Its only doubled when you make said ability checks. So, just wording the DC something like "you may add your profiency bonus to poisons' DCs if you are profienct in poisoner's tools" or something or other. Even if they wanted to limit it to things crafted/harvested with poisoner tools (which would get doubled as that would be ability checks)
That wording means the actual profiency bonus itself is not doubled. Its only doubled when you make said ability checks. So, just wording the DC something like "you may add your profiency bonus to poisons' DCs if you are profienct in poisoner's tools" or something or other. Even if they wanted to limit it to things crafted/harvested with poisoner tools (which would get doubled as that would be ability checks)
Or you could say that no poison can be improved beyond DC20. It would prevent things like Purple Worm Venom being DC25.
So. does anyone else have much thoughts about this feat? I really like the new UA feats in general. Though this one is pretty weaker than the rest--having cost money (for its own effect and for poisons in general), still has a lot of immunities (and relatively low amount of poison spells). Compared to getting an invocation, or spell points (though very limited), or the great Cooking Feat that is w hat is currenty competing on my Alchemist. Because alchemy and cooking are similiar!
The best part of this feat is the ability to apply the Poisoned Condition. Its an awesome condition to inflict if you can land it. And Alchemists don't exactly have a lot of options when it comes to Bonus Actions by default.
The damage and DC of the poison are on the low side, but the Condition more than makes up for the damage. I'd ask if the DC scaled with your Proficency, because that's the only part of the feat I'd find questionable. Even if your Alchemical Savant doesn't improve your poisons craft by default (the line between crafting and magic is weird, and how do you get a +1 bonus to a roll if you never roll for the poison damage?) its not important in the first place.
The major problem I find is this - at high levels, you mostly face evil humanoids, monstrocities, fiends or undead. While the humanoids aren't bad to use it on, animal-based monsters often have very high CON to resist, and most fiends and undead are immune to poisons, which makes this feat not scale well at higher levels, or during certain games.
On the Wrym poison. thats so high level I think it'd be fine to make it high dc like 25. Simply because its relatively hard to get, and at those levels of play you really ought to be 'out of the ordinary' in every respect. So it would be amusing to make a poison from a creature stronger, and use that to kill another of its kind later.
I do love the condition. I do wish the DC was for the condition and and 1/2 damage though. So it still had something on hit. I hate expendible resources that result in nothing. Items like flasks? sure. but this is given via a feat. So it feels like it should have an effect always (baring immunities etc).
but that is ultimately my biggest gripes and why I'm hesistant for my alchemist in general. DC isn't reliable, and there is no effect on a fail. Plus it costs gold.. which just feels weird. Also does weird things to the scale of use + limits it heavily for games, even games where it would make sense to have it. "lost in the jungleland" ones for instance, you won't get gold but it would make sense you could make poisons.
Yep immunities area a thing. But. I am pretty fine with that. The main reason is, this is just a 1/2 feat. Its meant to be a tool not a defining trait ultimately. though for an alchemist it is a bit more of a defining trait.. that has more to do with Alchemists' odditiy. What with fire and poison being pretty regularly considered the most oft resisted or immune. But not really having any active acid attacks (splash is a dc save so you don't roll anything.. its a bit passive for a 'build' since the player makes little to no interaction outside of aiming for twofers)
I am totally bias still loving this feat for my alchemist. I love items in general. and now I can make Adlet Meyers from Rokka no Yuusha
Just had a sudden realization that the bonus action application doesn't need to be on your own weapon (though it's probably the most readily available one) so the potent poison can still be used even when you're not the one making the weapon attack. Obvious in hindsight but somehow that escaped my notice before.
Yep its tasty that way. One issue though is that you can not poison arrows and bolts and sling bullets, and normal bullets. It specifies weapon, not ammo. So that is unfortuante detail there. Since. I wanted to pair it with my alchemist's magic stone in a sling~
Yep its tasty that way. One issue though is that you can not poison arrows and bolts and sling bullets, and normal bullets. It specifies weapon, not ammo. So that is unfortuante detail there. Since. I wanted to pair it with my alchemist's magic stone in a sling~
That might be something worth mentioning on the official feedback survey. This should be a boon for Alchemists but the way it works not it's... meh.
I've got several things to mention off hand in the survey.
Remove the gold cost. Make it short rest or long rest if it has to be limited. Feats shouldn't include monetary costs
the resoning being that it limits the forms of play--lots of games have low gold count but gain equipment, others are 'survival' worlds with little gold interaction. It should just be similiar to component bags, or the 'chef' feat where it just requires you to have 'stuff' and that stuff is up to you and the gm.
If the gold cost must stay. THen it really needs some signifanct boosts. Its too expensive for a lot of low level, and DC too weak for a lot lf later level.
The save needs to include 1/2 damage on a save. OR. instead apply as a damage rider-meaning it can crit as per normal damage, and the Save is purely for the poisoned condition. They may or may not lower the damage amount. its a lot but also its poison damage and limited resource. Fact is--most other poisons are 1/2 damage on save in 5E. But having it be "damage" added to the weapon would make it unique and a signature trait of the player character.
DC needs to be able to scale in some way. Saves are difficult in the first place, but poison saves more so.
A neat 'built in' idea would be for this feat to also add Profiency Bonus (flat bonus no doubles etc) to the DC of any poison you 'work with' (which would cover making, or buying and then modifying, harvesting as well) and deliver. The last part about 'deliver' is a balancing point. You have the profiency and knowledge about the poison, you know best how to use it. Someone else cutting or poisoning food, wouldn't know how to use it as well as you. So you take any poison's standard DC then add your profiency.
Alternate for only this poison would be to make it INT+Prof+8 like spell DCs.. but thats honestly boring and doesn't make you a poison user-it just makes you use this one poison.
Bonus Action application is great. but it needs to be worded similair to Basic Poison. You can apply to one object weapn, or X ammo (3 for basic poison but 1 is also relatively fine). This would allow for poisoning door knobs, hunting traps, caltrops, door knobs, weapons, sling ammo, bolts, improvised broken beer glass.
.... I swear there was something else but i dont' remember right now.
The save needs to include 1/2 damage on a save. OR. instead apply as a damage rider-meaning it can crit as per normal damage, and the Save is purely for the poisoned condition. They may or may not lower the damage amount. its a lot but also its poison damage and limited resource. Fact is--most other poisons are 1/2 damage on save in 5E. But having it be "damage" added to the weapon would make it unique and a signature trait of the player character.
DC needs to be able to scale in some way. Saves are difficult in the first place, but poison saves more so.
A neat 'built in' idea would be for this feat to also add Profiency Bonus (flat bonus no doubles etc) to the DC of any poison you 'work with' (which would cover making, or buying and then modifying, harvesting as well) and deliver. The last part about 'deliver' is a balancing point. You have the profiency and knowledge about the poison, you know best how to use it. Someone else cutting or poisoning food, wouldn't know how to use it as well as you. So you take any poison's standard DC then add your profiency.
Alternate for only this poison would be to make it INT+Prof+8 like spell DCs.. but thats honestly boring and doesn't make you a poison user-it just makes you use this one poison.
I look at it like this:
The damage *seems* high, but 2d8 averages out to 9 damage. That's less than Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter, so we can make a pretty close comparison to those feats in terms of power level
GWM and Sharpshooter have the upside of "can be used infinitely all day" and the downside of reduced accuracy (-5 to hit). They do not have a stat, but they do have a second effect which is generally considered pretty powerful (GWM has free bonus attack on crit, sharpshooter has ignore cover and ignore long range penalty)
GWM and Sharpshooter are also restricted in the way you can use them; Sharpshooter is ranged only, GWM is heavy weapon only for the damage bonus
So now let's compare Poisoner in its current state
As previously stated, 2d8 is slightly lower than 10 damage, but close enough for easy comparison. So let's call the damage from the feats "roughly equal"
It also has the poisoned condition, which is quite strong when the enemy isn't immune.
Poisoner gains "ignore poison resistance" but not immunity. The upside is, if you do a lot of other poison damage, this will help. The downside is this doesn't cover poison immunity, which is pretty prevalent throughout the game (for reference, a search for poison damage immunity among monsters returned 24 pages of results in official content, compared to only 4 pages of creatures with poison damage resistance).
Apply poisons as a bonus action instead of an action. Honestly, this just brings poisons in combat from "entirely unusable" to "usable by some". Bonus actions are already at a premium for several classes that might want to use this, but at least it's not an action anymore? In comparison, getting the bonus damage from the two aforementioned feats does not require an action.
Due to the action cost, this can only be used once per turn, regardless of how many attacks you may have.
After you hit, the enemy still gets a save to be affected at all. The save doesn't scale and isn't that high, given that it's against CON (often a high save for monsters). I'm sure some risk-value comparison could be drawn here against the to-hit penalty of the other feats (reduced accuracy versus "hit AND failed save").
This is costing 50gp per 2-7 poisons depending on level. Compared to, obviously, no cost on the other two damage boost feats.
It is worth mentioning that, assuming wording were corrected this would be usable on any weapon, so it does not have the usage restriction of "heavy" or "ranged" only like the others.
As it stacks up right now, Poisoner is not worth it. It's not terrible, but against its nearest peers it clearly doesn't stack up. 2d8+poisoned *is* better than 10 damage, for certain. But the fact that it's on a damage type with a common immunity, plus it has action cost AND gold cost AND limited uses per rest is a severe usage limitation. And the fact that it's a relatively low save number on a commonly-high-for-monsters save with no fail rider is another strike against it.
As far as your suggestions, I really like the "add proficiency mod to DC" option to at least offset one of the problems of the feat. But let's avoid tying it to a stat, especially Int. As much as it might fit, none of the classes who would really want to be using this prioritize Int as more than tertiary, so we get the Arcane Archer MAD scenario all over again.
An interesting breakdown, especially with the close damage comparison to the two big combat feats. It's worth pointing, though, that Sharpshooter especially is commonly held to be the most overpowered feat in the game. Distance weapon fighters often end up feeling that Sharpshooter is absolutely mandatory, especially those capable of making more than two attacks a turn. Judging Poisoner as lesser than Sharpshooter honestly strikes me as fair, as virtually all feats end up in the same bucket.
The comparison to Great Weapon Master seems more apt to me, especially since Sharpshooter applies to an entire classification of combat - "all ranged weapon attacks" - while Great Weapon Master specifically narrows it down to "Heavy Melee Weapons", which by definition also restricts the feat to two-handed weapons. GWM is specifically the 'Huge Weapon Guy' feat, which feels like a similar breadth of niche to the 'Likes Poisoning Folks' niche. Poisoner requires a bonus action to function at all in combat, and it can 'waste' its damage if you fail to apply it before the poison wears off. The Poisoned condition is very strong, but poison immunity is also nigh-omnipresent. Poisoner does feel like you're not getting much for your fifty gold, but something occurred to me that I just got done double-checking which changes the game, just a little bit.
The 'Potent Poison' you can craft with Poisoner does not expire. Once you make it, it's yours until you use it. This is entirely unlike most other 'Make on [X] rest' feats, where the thingus only lasts until your next long rest. If you want to spend a full eight-hour workday and four hundred gold making twenty or thirty doses of poison, you absolutely can.
This means you can give poison to your allies, and allow them to use their own attacks to deliver your damage provided they have a moment to apply poison prior to combat. It also means you'll never not have poison on your hands. Want to lace the meat you're using the bait guard dogs with poison? Done. Want to use Potent Poison to lace somebody's wine at a gala? Done. Yes, the feat treats Potent Poison as a wound poison, but it doesn't say so. Depending on the DM, you can use it as an ingested poison as well, or work with your artificer buddy (if you're not the party's artificer, which seems unlikely given the nature of the feat) to create aerosoling poison grenades. The feat gives you the ability to manufacture permanent poisons, which seems like something a clever player could use in a great many ways.
After all, neither Sharpshooter nor Great Weapon Master allow you to 'bank' your +10 damage to use when and how you see fit, no matter how long a stretch of time goes between Creation and Use.
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Howdy!
So the new Poisoner feat in the new UA this year (se below). As an Alchemist main I really like how this sounds. Because its basically elemental bypass for poison. And well aclhemsit get a bonus to poisons (though there aren't that many poison spells in general). So it does really help alchemist be more consistent, most of the immune folks are deamonds or undead--which make sense. I'd have to use fire (though quite a few deamons are also immune/resistence to that...) But outside of that it means I'd have poison or fire for most combats.
Bonus Action poison application is pretty neat, can get some use out of the Alchemy Jug's poison and other rpoisons you make.
50gp for profiency amount of DC 14 poison damage+poisoned could be neat. That solid DC worries me a tad though. At early levels that is a pretty strong DC-later levels I feel like it won't really work too well. The cost is the reverse, expensive early and probably negligible later. It does kind of suck its all or nothing. I feel like I wish it was 1/2 damage on a save. Or. that there was no cost-but you only got Profiency amount per day with it. Or that you could increase the DC in some way. Just a little nudge somewhere...
I love the bonus action application though for poisons in general. for alchemists in particular they don't have a bonus action. So pulling a poison out and applying it is super duper fun. Even if they aren't great at weapons ---though mine has green flame blade because it fits real well. (booming blade would be smarter choice though) and because GFB was allowed the Savant bonus by a nice GM.
So. does anyone else have much thoughts about this feat? I really like the new UA feats in general. Though this one is pretty weaker than the rest--having cost money (for its own effect and for poisons in general), still has a lot of immunities (and relatively low amount of poison spells). Compared to getting an invocation, or spell points (though very limited), or the great Cooking Feat that is w hat is currenty competing on my Alchemist. Because alchemy and cooking are similiar!
Poisoner
You can prepare and deliver deadly poisons, gaining the following benefits: • When you make a damage roll, you ignore resistance to poison damage. • You can coat a weapon in poison as a bonus action, instead of an action. • You gain proficiency with the poisoner’s kit if you don’t already have it. With one hour of work using a poisoner’s kit and expending 50 gp worth of materials, you can create a number of doses of potent poison equal to your proficiency bonus. Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute, or until ©2020 Wizards of the Coast LLC 3 you hit with the weapon. When a weapon coated in this poison deals damage to a creature, that creature must succeed on a DC 14 Constitution saving throw or take 2d8 damage and become poisoned until the end of your next turn
I recall hearing somewhere that proficiency with a poisoner's kit allowed you to add your proficiency bonus to the save a target has to make for the poison. I couldn't find an official ruling on that of course, because Wizards hates any tools that aren't thieves' tools, but if that's the case than that DC14 save goes from "okay to meh" to "holy shit" at most any level of play. It'd be equivalent to calculating a spell DC with a +6 modifier from the governing skill, which is bonko.
Otherwise it's a solid first stab at making players actually care about poison, which is nice. Still needs work, though.
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The bonus action application is nice though as written only applies to weapons, notably not ammunition, nor other objects. So in effect that means it only applies to basic poison, the feat's own "potent poison" and injury and potentially contact poisons listed in the DMG. Not applying to ammunition is pretty annoying.
It also leaves out ingested poisons (probably rarely ever used in combat) and inhaled poisons which sounds fine honestly.
This wording: "Once applied, the poison retains potency for 1 minute, or until you hit with the weapon." Is potentially unclear. It should really include "whichever comes first" if that's the intent, because for selfish reasons I'm inclined to interpret that as "whichever comes later" and considering it as at least 1 minute of a poisoned weapon even if it hits multiple times within that minute or lingering past a minute until it hits at least once.
Being able to craft that many poisons at once within a short rest is kinda crazy by later levels but far, FAR better than requiring 20 days for a single vial of basic poison ala the PHB mundane item crafting rules, but maybe too fast otherwise? Maybe if it was written more like Alchemical Crafting in XGE and was considered "as part of a long rest. That feels a bit more reasonable.
I really, really hope though that this feat is more them seeking playtesting for redesigning how poisons work in general.
I did a cursory search and couldn't find anything about poisoner's kit and poison DCs. Poison crafting rules in general are pretty vague. So, this was likely homebrew.
That being said, it's homebrew that I like. The biggest issue I have with this feat is that the DC doesn't scale at all and won't be particularly useful past the early levels; 14+Proficiency might be a bit high overall, but something like 12+proficiency seems like it would work well?
I agree the DCs need help. The idea that you could add your Proficiency probably comes from the Poisoner's Kit section in the PHB. It says;
Poisoner's Kit. A poisoner's kit includes the vials, chemicals, and other equipment necessary for the creation of poisons. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to craft or use poisons.
I'm not sure if 'use poisons' means it affects the DC. It would be nice if it could.
...Huh. Use Poison is really specific verbage. How can you use poison that wouldn't intend to be applying to DC? Also.. it would make the profiency for that more reasonable to want. THough it would mean out of the gate the poison from that feat should be what dc 17? Thats... difficult at low level. Though 50gp is a massive amount of your coinage
I ssuppose if you had to make a roll to apply the poison to like.. a candle stick without getting it on you? Though I don't think 5E has a self poisoning clause like pathfinder does.
I'd like for the DC to have some ability to grow yep. I do not know enough about high level but max profiency bonus is 6 right? so the max DC if you add prof bonus to this would be 21? Is 21 a good or bad DC at high levels? It feels like a good one when I pause to think that the normal recipe for DCs on spells is 8 + ability (probably 5 baring things thta break the limit?) + 6 (profiency). but there might be higher level stuff that alters DCs. I dunno.
I do want the cost to go away pretty bad though. I don't like the prescident of "cost gp /rsources to use feat effects' idea. Even if its kind of already a thing with spell materials in a few limited cases. I'd rather they limit it to a Per day amount and prevent you from building up a storeload or something.
But the biggest reason to remove the cost is the fact that not all games assume fluid income. There are some games where they don't have gold in come just items,, and there are some where they get some gold but most things in general are given via missions etc. Making a class feature /feat cost gold to operate just kind of limits it in w eird ways. Similiar to the issue of Artificers not actually starting with Tinker Tools--despite having class abilities that require them in specific.
Well, I know that at 20th level, characters get spell save DCs in the 20s if they're dedicated casters. Even the CON saves can be tricky, to say nothing of the number of monsters with poison immunity, which the feat understandably doesn't touch. I don't think saves based on adding Proficiency are excessive, really. Poisons are super rare, super expensive and you get one melee hit and 3 ranged. You need a level of reliability to offset all the downsides.
If you get your proficiency bonus to the save DC, pairing this feat with the Practiced Expert feat would be dangerous to enemies with Expertise: Poisoners Kit so a PC could have at level 4 if variant human. and even at level 20 a save DC of 24 would be hard to beat with the only real bonus would be applying the poisoned condition to your enemy. But I think the real value would be in the selling of said poisons to assassins and others such types.
That would be insane :). You could deal with it saying that poisons or potions could not not be modified beyond flat proficiency.
Haha yeah thats true.
granted the wording (As was pointed out in forums elsewhere) specifies ability checks. So wouldn't apply to DCs. since I don't think DCs are ability check based. Unless static DCs have some wording I don't know. (I know observant calls out passive perception itself)
Still I think it would be pretty darn cool if poison tool kit would let you increase the DCs. They'd just need to limit it. Most of the doubling effects state
"Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you " or "your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses your proficiency with a tool." sort of wordding
That wording means the actual profiency bonus itself is not doubled. Its only doubled when you make said ability checks.
So, just wording the DC something like "you may add your profiency bonus to poisons' DCs if you are profienct in poisoner's tools" or something or other. Even if they wanted to limit it to things crafted/harvested with poisoner tools (which would get doubled as that would be ability checks)
Or you could say that no poison can be improved beyond DC20. It would prevent things like Purple Worm Venom being DC25.
The best part of this feat is the ability to apply the Poisoned Condition. Its an awesome condition to inflict if you can land it. And Alchemists don't exactly have a lot of options when it comes to Bonus Actions by default.
The damage and DC of the poison are on the low side, but the Condition more than makes up for the damage. I'd ask if the DC scaled with your Proficency, because that's the only part of the feat I'd find questionable. Even if your Alchemical Savant doesn't improve your poisons craft by default (the line between crafting and magic is weird, and how do you get a +1 bonus to a roll if you never roll for the poison damage?) its not important in the first place.
The major problem I find is this - at high levels, you mostly face evil humanoids, monstrocities, fiends or undead. While the humanoids aren't bad to use it on, animal-based monsters often have very high CON to resist, and most fiends and undead are immune to poisons, which makes this feat not scale well at higher levels, or during certain games.
On the Wrym poison. thats so high level I think it'd be fine to make it high dc like 25. Simply because its relatively hard to get, and at those levels of play you really ought to be 'out of the ordinary' in every respect. So it would be amusing to make a poison from a creature stronger, and use that to kill another of its kind later.
I do love the condition. I do wish the DC was for the condition and and 1/2 damage though. So it still had something on hit. I hate expendible resources that result in nothing. Items like flasks? sure. but this is given via a feat. So it feels like it should have an effect always (baring immunities etc).
but that is ultimately my biggest gripes and why I'm hesistant for my alchemist in general. DC isn't reliable, and there is no effect on a fail. Plus it costs gold.. which just feels weird. Also does weird things to the scale of use + limits it heavily for games, even games where it would make sense to have it. "lost in the jungleland" ones for instance, you won't get gold but it would make sense you could make poisons.
Yep immunities area a thing. But. I am pretty fine with that. The main reason is, this is just a 1/2 feat. Its meant to be a tool not a defining trait ultimately. though for an alchemist it is a bit more of a defining trait.. that has more to do with Alchemists' odditiy. What with fire and poison being pretty regularly considered the most oft resisted or immune. But not really having any active acid attacks (splash is a dc save so you don't roll anything.. its a bit passive for a 'build' since the player makes little to no interaction outside of aiming for twofers)
I am totally bias still loving this feat for my alchemist. I love items in general. and now I can make Adlet Meyers from Rokka no Yuusha
Just had a sudden realization that the bonus action application doesn't need to be on your own weapon (though it's probably the most readily available one) so the potent poison can still be used even when you're not the one making the weapon attack. Obvious in hindsight but somehow that escaped my notice before.
Yep its tasty that way. One issue though is that you can not poison arrows and bolts and sling bullets, and normal bullets. It specifies weapon, not ammo. So that is unfortuante detail there. Since. I wanted to pair it with my alchemist's magic stone in a sling~
That might be something worth mentioning on the official feedback survey. This should be a boon for Alchemists but the way it works not it's... meh.
I've got several things to mention off hand in the survey.
.... I swear there was something else but i dont' remember right now.
My first thought was Way of Mercy.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I look at it like this:
So now let's compare Poisoner in its current state
As it stacks up right now, Poisoner is not worth it. It's not terrible, but against its nearest peers it clearly doesn't stack up. 2d8+poisoned *is* better than 10 damage, for certain. But the fact that it's on a damage type with a common immunity, plus it has action cost AND gold cost AND limited uses per rest is a severe usage limitation. And the fact that it's a relatively low save number on a commonly-high-for-monsters save with no fail rider is another strike against it.
As far as your suggestions, I really like the "add proficiency mod to DC" option to at least offset one of the problems of the feat. But let's avoid tying it to a stat, especially Int. As much as it might fit, none of the classes who would really want to be using this prioritize Int as more than tertiary, so we get the Arcane Archer MAD scenario all over again.
An interesting breakdown, especially with the close damage comparison to the two big combat feats. It's worth pointing, though, that Sharpshooter especially is commonly held to be the most overpowered feat in the game. Distance weapon fighters often end up feeling that Sharpshooter is absolutely mandatory, especially those capable of making more than two attacks a turn. Judging Poisoner as lesser than Sharpshooter honestly strikes me as fair, as virtually all feats end up in the same bucket.
The comparison to Great Weapon Master seems more apt to me, especially since Sharpshooter applies to an entire classification of combat - "all ranged weapon attacks" - while Great Weapon Master specifically narrows it down to "Heavy Melee Weapons", which by definition also restricts the feat to two-handed weapons. GWM is specifically the 'Huge Weapon Guy' feat, which feels like a similar breadth of niche to the 'Likes Poisoning Folks' niche. Poisoner requires a bonus action to function at all in combat, and it can 'waste' its damage if you fail to apply it before the poison wears off. The Poisoned condition is very strong, but poison immunity is also nigh-omnipresent. Poisoner does feel like you're not getting much for your fifty gold, but something occurred to me that I just got done double-checking which changes the game, just a little bit.
The 'Potent Poison' you can craft with Poisoner does not expire. Once you make it, it's yours until you use it. This is entirely unlike most other 'Make on [X] rest' feats, where the thingus only lasts until your next long rest. If you want to spend a full eight-hour workday and four hundred gold making twenty or thirty doses of poison, you absolutely can.
This means you can give poison to your allies, and allow them to use their own attacks to deliver your damage provided they have a moment to apply poison prior to combat. It also means you'll never not have poison on your hands. Want to lace the meat you're using the bait guard dogs with poison? Done. Want to use Potent Poison to lace somebody's wine at a gala? Done. Yes, the feat treats Potent Poison as a wound poison, but it doesn't say so. Depending on the DM, you can use it as an ingested poison as well, or work with your artificer buddy (if you're not the party's artificer, which seems unlikely given the nature of the feat) to create aerosoling poison grenades. The feat gives you the ability to manufacture permanent poisons, which seems like something a clever player could use in a great many ways.
After all, neither Sharpshooter nor Great Weapon Master allow you to 'bank' your +10 damage to use when and how you see fit, no matter how long a stretch of time goes between Creation and Use.
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