Trickery Clerics can use Invoke Duplicity to create an illusion of themselves. They can cast spells from the illusion. Sea Druids can use Wrath of the Sea to gain a bonus attack to a character within range. Here are the texts:
Invoke Duplicity As a Bonus Action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to create a perfect visual illusion of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 30 feet of yourself. The illusion is intangible and doesn’t occupy its space. It lasts for 1 minute, but it ends early if you dismiss it (no action required) or have the Incapacitated condition. The illusion is animated and mimics your expressions and gestures. While it persists, you gain the following benefits.
Cast Spells. You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses.
Distract. When both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have Advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.
Move. As a Bonus Action, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is within 120 feet of yourself.
- - - -
Wrath of the Sea
As a Bonus Action, you can expend a use of your Wild Shape to manifest a 5-foot Emanation that takes the form of ocean spray that surrounds you for 10 minutes. It ends early if you dismiss it (no action required), manifest it again, or have the Incapacitated condition.
When you manifest the Emanation and as a Bonus Action on your subsequent turns, you can choose another creature you can see in the Emanation. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC or take Cold damage and, if the creature is Large or smaller, be pushed up to 15 feet away from you. To determine this damage, roll a number of d6s equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of one die).
- - - - -
If a character multiclasses between Trickery Cleric and Circle of the Sea Druid, can they use wrath of the sea on the illusion of themselves?
Point of Consideration: Wild Shape can be used to cast the Find Familiar spell which is a spell…. so is wrath of the sea considered a spell? I think it is, but……
I feel as if you SHOULD be able to do this. But I’m not sure.
Point of Consideration: Wild Shape can be used to cast the Find Familiar spell which is a spell…. so is wrath of the sea considered a spell? I think it is, but……
This is independent of the main question. The fact that you can expend a Wild Shape use to cast a spell does not retroactively make all uses of Wild Shape a spell. You could expend a Wild Shape use to cast Find Familiar from the Illusion's space, but every other use of Wild Shape would not be usable unless it actually casts a spell. I don't see any other use of Wild Shape that qualifies other than Wild Companion.
I apologize in advance for the following Cheese Tray: 🧀🧀
I have not tried this combo in a live game yet….
Okay so consensus seems to be that since wrath of the sea is not a spell it cannot emanate from the Invoke Duplicity feature.
Follow up: Would Oceanic Gift at sea druid 16 be applicable to the Dupe?
Text:
**Gift of the Sea**
Instead of manifesting the Emanation of Wrath of the Sea around yourself, you can manifest it around one willing creature within 60 feet of yourself. That creature gains all the benefits of the Emanation and uses your spell save DC and Wisdom modifier for it.
In addition, you can manifest the Emanation around both the other creature and yourself if you expend two uses of your Wild Shape instead of one when manifesting it.
- - -
My thinking is it might apply if the illusion counts as a willing creature. But I suspect that the Invoked Duplicity does not qualify as a creature so even at 16 this does not work?
- - - Follow Up to the Follow Up LOL….. if I multiclassed with wizard, tricky cleric, and sea druid, and then cast ……Simulacrum:
“You create a simulacrum of one Beast or Humanoid that is within 10 feet of you for the entire casting of the spell. You finish the casting by touching both the creature and a pile of ice or snow that is the same size as that creature, and the pile turns into the simulacrum, which is a creature. It uses the game statistics of the original creature at the time of casting, except it is a Construct, its Hit Point maximum is half as much, and it can’t cast this spell.
The simulacrum is Friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your commands and acts on your turn in combat. The simulacrum can’t gain levels, and it can’t take Short or Long Rests.
If the simulacrum takes damage, the only way to restore its Hit Points is to repair it as you take a Long Rest, during which you expend components worth 100 GP per Hit Point restored. The simulacrum must stay within 5 feet of you for the repair.
The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 Hit Points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts away. If you cast this spell again, any simulacrum you created with this spell is instantly destroyed.”
**Edit - I think I hit a brick wall. I cannot have Simulacrum and Oceanic Gift at the same time, so this is pointless.
But I think a Tricky Cleric 5 - Wizard 15 would be really powerful and the sea druid would have to sit on the sideline petting his goldfish.
The illusion isn't a creature, so it can't be a target of anything that says something like "choose a willing creature".
A Simulacrum is a creature, and a simulacrum of you can do nearly anything you can do (with a few restrictions listed in the spell description) including Wrath of the Sea, Invoke Duplicity, etc.
The illusion isn't a creature, so it can't be a target of anything that says something like "choose a willing creature".
A Simulacrum is a creature, and a simulacrum of you can do nearly anything you can do (with a few restrictions listed in the spell description) including Wrath of the Sea, Invoke Duplicity, etc.
That is very helpful thank you.
I am exploring different ways the Trickery Cleric can be multiclassed. I think it might be interesting to cross class it with some other things other than druid.
🧀🤯For instance, the Echo Knight with Trickery Cleric would have two clones, and a simulacrum could have two more….. this is some A-grade cheese. I could even play as a centaur, create a simulacrum, an echo and a duplicity of myself and the snowman, and just reenact Ride of the Rohirrim 🧀🧀
🧀🤯For instance, the Echo Knight with Trickery Cleric would have two clones, and a simulacrum could have two more….. this is some A-grade cheese. I could even play as a centaur, create a simulacrum, an echo and a duplicity of myself and the snowman, and just reenact Ride of the Rohirrim 🧀🧀
That's two Bonus Actions to set up the copies. The simulacrum's copies would be its own and not usable by the main character. The simulacrum's channel divinity uses don't come back because it can't take Short or Long Rests, so it's of limited help.
I feel like you would get more synergy with Eldritch Knight than Echo Knight but you would probably have to get to level 7 Eldritch Knight for that to pay off. Maybe EK 16, Trickery 4?
Wrath of the Sea is not a spell. That being said, since you could have Spirit Guardians come from the illusion, I would allow it.
This is also my ruling, so Spirit Guardians and other "Range: Self" spells (e.g. Cone of Cold or Thunderwave) synergyze well with Invoke Duplicity or Gaze of Two Minds:
Cast Spells. You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses.
While perceiving through the other creature’s senses, you benefit from any special senses possessed by that creature, and you can cast spells as if you were in your space or the other creature’s space if the two of you are within 60 feet of each other.
Because Range "indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell’s effect can originate", and Self means that "the spell is cast on the spellcaster or emanates from them, as specified in the spell", and in this interaction "you can cast spells as if you were in the other creature’s space" / "in the illusion’s space".
Cone of Cold unambiguously works via the Duplicitous Illusion, I don't know about Spirit Guardians though, certainly you could cast the spell via the illusion but would it stay around the illusion? would it move with the illusion? Casting a spell is not the same as maintaining a spell or concentrating on a spell. IMO that is open to interpretation.
You can already make multiple copies of yourself with Invoke Duplicity there is no limitation to having only one at a time.
Cone of Cold unambiguously works via the Duplicitous Illusion, I don't know about Spirit Guardians though, certainly you could cast the spell via the illusion but would it stay around the illusion? would it move with the illusion? Casting a spell is not the same as maintaining a spell or concentrating on a spell. IMO that is open to interpretation.
It is, and I get your point, since Emanation says:
An Emanation is an area of effect that extends in straight lines from a creature or an object in all directions. The effect that creates an Emanation specifies the distance it extends.
An Emanation moves with the creature or object that is its origin unless it is an instantaneous or a stationary effect.
But still, to me the Emanation moves with the creature or object the illusion, which in this case is its origin, thanks to the Level 3: Invoke Duplicity feature.
And even so, someone could argue the spell can't even be cast because an Emanation extends from a creature, and the illusion isn't one, but I prefer to think the feature overrides that.
But still, to me the Emanation moves with the creature or object the illusion, which in this case is its origin, thanks to the Level 3: Invoke Duplicity feature.
And even so, someone could argue the spell can't even be cast because an Emanation extends from a creature, and the illusion isn't one, but I prefer to think the feature overrides that.
My counter argument to that would be Heat Metal (if we imagine a cleric-druid MC), or Witchbolt, where "you" have to remain within 30 ft of the target to use it. Or something like Aura of Vitality where you use a BA to activate the spell. Activating is not the same as "casting". It think it is unlikely, the designers intended Invoke Duplicity to get around the range restrictions of these spells, because the range restrictions are very much a balancing constraint - indeed the Heat Metal restriction was added specifically because the community complained about balance when it didn't have a range restriction..
I mean, if you allow Spiritual Guardians to move with the illusion, what is to stop the cleric casting Spiritual Guardians at the start of a dungeon then sending the illusion through all of the rooms with it up, killing all the baddies with zero-danger to the cleric or party? The whole constraint of "you must use your senses" seems to exist for the sole purpose to prevent a cleric hiding behind a wall (total cover) and sending the illusion to kill all the enemies. It seems wrong to undermine that by allowing Spirit Guardians (which does not rely on sight) around the illusion which can then be sent ahead to kill all the enemies.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not debatable or that it can't be ruled differently. That's why I wanted to leave a thread where not everybody agrees, where the "you" in the spell's effect is being used as an argument (This is another thread about this topic: 5e Trickery Domain Cleric Question (comment 26 & 27))
I mean, if you allow Spiritual Guardians to move with the illusion, what is to stop the cleric casting Spiritual Guardians at the start of a dungeon then sending the illusion through all of the rooms with it up, killing all the baddies with zero-danger to the cleric or party? The whole constraint of "you must use your senses" seems to exist for the sole purpose to prevent a cleric hiding behind a wall (total cover) and sending the illusion to kill all the enemies. It seems wrong to undermine that by allowing Spirit Guardians (which does not rely on sight) around the illusion which can then be sent ahead to kill all the enemies.
Yeah, to me "cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses" means you can get a range boost on something like guiding bolt or healing word provided you can still see the target, but it wouldn't change a Self spell like spirit guardians from originating in a different space, or -- to pick another example that came up a while ago -- allow you to cast a melee cantrip like true strike and have the illusion somehow make a very tangible weapon attack from its space as part of the casting
Touch spells like cure wounds might be a grey area in that interpretation, because it seems intuitive that casting those through your dupe (the way someone might cast spells through a familiar) should be at least RAI. A strict reading would suggest that casting a Touch spell from the duplicate's space still doesn't let the caster physically touch the target, though
Touch. The spell’s effect originates on something, as defined by the spell, that the spellcaster must touch within their reach.
Self. The spell is cast on the spellcaster or emanates from them, as specified in the spell.
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Trickery Clerics can use Invoke Duplicity to create an illusion of themselves. They can cast spells from the illusion. Sea Druids can use Wrath of the Sea to gain a bonus attack to a character within range. Here are the texts:
Invoke Duplicity
As a Bonus Action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to create a perfect visual illusion of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 30 feet of yourself. The illusion is intangible and doesn’t occupy its space. It lasts for 1 minute, but it ends early if you dismiss it (no action required) or have the Incapacitated condition. The illusion is animated and mimics your expressions and gestures. While it persists, you gain the following benefits.
Cast Spells. You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses.
Distract. When both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have Advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.
Move. As a Bonus Action, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space you can see that is within 120 feet of yourself.
- - - -
Wrath of the Sea
As a Bonus Action, you can expend a use of your Wild Shape to manifest a 5-foot Emanation that takes the form of ocean spray that surrounds you for 10 minutes. It ends early if you dismiss it (no action required), manifest it again, or have the Incapacitated condition.
When you manifest the Emanation and as a Bonus Action on your subsequent turns, you can choose another creature you can see in the Emanation. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against your spell save DC or take Cold damage and, if the creature is Large or smaller, be pushed up to 15 feet away from you. To determine this damage, roll a number of d6s equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of one die).
- - - - -
If a character multiclasses between Trickery Cleric and Circle of the Sea Druid, can they use wrath of the sea on the illusion of themselves?
Point of Consideration: Wild Shape can be used to cast the Find Familiar spell which is a spell…. so is wrath of the sea considered a spell? I think it is, but……
I feel as if you SHOULD be able to do this. But I’m not sure.
According the official rules, no. Invoke Duplicity allows casting spells from the duplicate's space, but Wrath of the Sea isn't a spell.
pronouns: he/she/they
Wrath of the Sea is not a spell. That being said, since you could have Spirit Guardians come from the illusion, I would allow it.
The Wrath of the Sea Emanation extends from you, not the illusion of yourself that Invoke Duplicity create.
This is independent of the main question. The fact that you can expend a Wild Shape use to cast a spell does not retroactively make all uses of Wild Shape a spell. You could expend a Wild Shape use to cast Find Familiar from the Illusion's space, but every other use of Wild Shape would not be usable unless it actually casts a spell. I don't see any other use of Wild Shape that qualifies other than Wild Companion.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I apologize in advance for the following Cheese Tray: 🧀🧀
I have not tried this combo in a live game yet….
Okay so consensus seems to be that since wrath of the sea is not a spell it cannot emanate from the Invoke Duplicity feature.
Follow up:
Would Oceanic Gift at sea druid 16 be applicable to the Dupe?
Text:
**Gift of the Sea**
Instead of manifesting the Emanation of Wrath of the Sea around yourself, you can manifest it around one willing creature within 60 feet of yourself. That creature gains all the benefits of the Emanation and uses your spell save DC and Wisdom modifier for it.
In addition, you can manifest the Emanation around both the other creature and yourself if you expend two uses of your Wild Shape instead of one when manifesting it.
- - -
My thinking is it might apply if the illusion counts as a willing creature. But I suspect that the Invoked Duplicity does not qualify as a creature so even at 16 this does not work?
- - -
Follow Up to the Follow Up
LOL….. if I multiclassed with wizard, tricky cleric, and sea druid, and then cast ……Simulacrum:
“You create a simulacrum of one Beast or Humanoid that is within 10 feet of you for the entire casting of the spell. You finish the casting by touching both the creature and a pile of ice or snow that is the same size as that creature, and the pile turns into the simulacrum, which is a creature. It uses the game statistics of the original creature at the time of casting, except it is a Construct, its Hit Point maximum is half as much, and it can’t cast this spell.
The simulacrum is Friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your commands and acts on your turn in combat. The simulacrum can’t gain levels, and it can’t take Short or Long Rests.
If the simulacrum takes damage, the only way to restore its Hit Points is to repair it as you take a Long Rest, during which you expend components worth 100 GP per Hit Point restored. The simulacrum must stay within 5 feet of you for the repair.
The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 Hit Points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts away. If you cast this spell again, any simulacrum you created with this spell is instantly destroyed.”
**Edit - I think I hit a brick wall. I cannot have Simulacrum and Oceanic Gift at the same time, so this is pointless.
But I think a Tricky Cleric 5 - Wizard 15 would be really powerful and the sea druid would have to sit on the sideline petting his goldfish.
The illusion isn't a creature, so it can't be a target of anything that says something like "choose a willing creature".
A Simulacrum is a creature, and a simulacrum of you can do nearly anything you can do (with a few restrictions listed in the spell description) including Wrath of the Sea, Invoke Duplicity, etc.
pronouns: he/she/they
That is very helpful thank you.
I am exploring different ways the Trickery Cleric can be multiclassed. I think it might be interesting to cross class it with some other things other than druid.
🧀🤯For instance, the Echo Knight with Trickery Cleric would have two clones, and a simulacrum could have two more….. this is some A-grade cheese. I could even play as a centaur, create a simulacrum, an echo and a duplicity of myself and the snowman, and just reenact Ride of the Rohirrim 🧀🧀
That's two Bonus Actions to set up the copies. The simulacrum's copies would be its own and not usable by the main character. The simulacrum's channel divinity uses don't come back because it can't take Short or Long Rests, so it's of limited help.
I feel like you would get more synergy with Eldritch Knight than Echo Knight but you would probably have to get to level 7 Eldritch Knight for that to pay off. Maybe EK 16, Trickery 4?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
This is also my ruling, so Spirit Guardians and other "Range: Self" spells (e.g. Cone of Cold or Thunderwave) synergyze well with Invoke Duplicity or Gaze of Two Minds:
Because Range "indicates how far from the spellcaster the spell’s effect can originate", and Self means that "the spell is cast on the spellcaster or emanates from them, as specified in the spell", and in this interaction "you can cast spells as if you were in the other creature’s space" / "in the illusion’s space".
But for fairness' sake, not everyone agrees: Would this work? - Rules & Game Mechanics
EDIT: for clarity.
Cone of Cold unambiguously works via the Duplicitous Illusion, I don't know about Spirit Guardians though, certainly you could cast the spell via the illusion but would it stay around the illusion? would it move with the illusion? Casting a spell is not the same as maintaining a spell or concentrating on a spell. IMO that is open to interpretation.
You can already make multiple copies of yourself with Invoke Duplicity there is no limitation to having only one at a time.
It is, and I get your point, since Emanation says:
But still, to me the Emanation moves with
the creature or objectthe illusion, which in this case is its origin, thanks to the Level 3: Invoke Duplicity feature.And even so, someone could argue the spell can't even be cast because an Emanation extends from a creature, and the illusion isn't one, but I prefer to think the feature overrides that.
My counter argument to that would be Heat Metal (if we imagine a cleric-druid MC), or Witchbolt, where "you" have to remain within 30 ft of the target to use it. Or something like Aura of Vitality where you use a BA to activate the spell. Activating is not the same as "casting". It think it is unlikely, the designers intended Invoke Duplicity to get around the range restrictions of these spells, because the range restrictions are very much a balancing constraint - indeed the Heat Metal restriction was added specifically because the community complained about balance when it didn't have a range restriction..
I mean, if you allow Spiritual Guardians to move with the illusion, what is to stop the cleric casting Spiritual Guardians at the start of a dungeon then sending the illusion through all of the rooms with it up, killing all the baddies with zero-danger to the cleric or party? The whole constraint of "you must use your senses" seems to exist for the sole purpose to prevent a cleric hiding behind a wall (total cover) and sending the illusion to kill all the enemies. It seems wrong to undermine that by allowing Spirit Guardians (which does not rely on sight) around the illusion which can then be sent ahead to kill all the enemies.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not debatable or that it can't be ruled differently. That's why I wanted to leave a thread where not everybody agrees, where the "you" in the spell's effect is being used as an argument (This is another thread about this topic: 5e Trickery Domain Cleric Question (comment 26 & 27))
Just to clarify, 2024 Heat Metal and 2024 Witch Bolt have "Range: 60 feet", and 2024 Aura of Vitality doesn't require a Bonus Action.
Yeah, to me "cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses" means you can get a range boost on something like guiding bolt or healing word provided you can still see the target, but it wouldn't change a Self spell like spirit guardians from originating in a different space, or -- to pick another example that came up a while ago -- allow you to cast a melee cantrip like true strike and have the illusion somehow make a very tangible weapon attack from its space as part of the casting
Touch spells like cure wounds might be a grey area in that interpretation, because it seems intuitive that casting those through your dupe (the way someone might cast spells through a familiar) should be at least RAI. A strict reading would suggest that casting a Touch spell from the duplicate's space still doesn't let the caster physically touch the target, though
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)