5.5e (2024 Wild Magic Sorcer - Can he double dip into the surge pool?

{In the following post, I will use the pronoun 'he' because I am male & mostly run male characters.} 
{WMS will be used to refer to Wild Magic Sorcer & WST will be used for Wild-magic Surge Table.} 

In D&D 5.5e (2024), when a sorcerer reaches 3rd level, he gains a sorcer subclass of his choice. 
"You gain a Sorcerer subclass of your choice. The Aberrant Sorcery, Clockwork Sorcery, Draconic Sorcery, and Wild Magic Sorcery subclasses are detailed after this class’s description. A subclass is a specialization that grants you features at certain Sorcerer levels. For the rest of your career, you gain each of your subclass’s features that are of your Sorcerer level or lower." 


At level 3, the WMS gains two WMS class features: Wild Magic Surge & Tides of Chaos. 

"Level 3: Wild Magic Surge
Your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect.
If the magical effect is a spell, it is too wild to be affected by your Metamagic." 

"Level 3: Tides of Chaos
You can manipulate chaos itself to give yourself Advantage on one D20 Test before you roll the d20. Once you do so, you must cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot or finish a Long Rest before you can use this feature again.
If you do cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot before you finish a Long Rest, you automatically roll on the Wild Magic Surge table." 


Now for my interpretation of RAW, regarding the title of the post for 'double dipping'. 

Since a character gains all class features and the Wild Magic Surge & Tides of Chaos are listed separately as independent subclass features of the WMS, I believe that the RAW allows the WMS to attempt to roll on the WST twice. Why would anyone want to roll on that crazy table twice, let alone onece? In 5.5e version of the table, many of the detriments have been eliminated or toned down. Previously, the Fireball and Fog Cloud spells would have been dropped on the sorcerer, but that has been changed to 'being cast' by the sorcer; so a possible disadvantage becomes a possible advantage. 

Example & Argument: 
My 3rd level, Male, Faerie, Wild Magic Sorcer named Vimvis Ometecuhtli starts the day off thinking about nature and all its glory. He wants to glean what the weather may be this day and rolls a d20 using the Nature skill; using Tides of Chaos, he gets advantage on his skill chec. 

Later in the day he happens upon a group of orcs attacking a small camp of travelers and decides to engage them from a distance. 
Vimvis moves his movement of 30 and casts Chaos Bolt (magic action). 

The casting of the 1st Level spell Chaos Bolt allows Vimvis to immediately roll a d20 to see if he can roll on the WST, as stated in the Wild Magic Surge feature, and for this example he rolls a 20! a spin on the WST! 
He rollsa d100 and gets 82, which has the following effect: "You radiate Bright Light in a 30-foot radius for the next minute. Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of you has the Blinded condition until the end of its next turn." 

Because he had used Tides of Chaos earlier in the day, and because he has cast a slotted (1st level or greater) spell, he is automatically induced to roll on the WST again ("If you do cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot before you finish a Long Rest, you automatically roll on the Wild Magic Surge table.") 
Vimvis rolls the d100 again and gets a 22 with the following effect: "For the next minute, all your spells with a casting time of an action have a casting time of a Bonus Action."  
And the Tides of Chaos has been reactivated. 

Now, to deal with the activating spell, Chaos Bolt - Vimvis rolls his spell attack roll with advantage using Tides of Chaos and rolls a 3 & 18, using the 18, he successfully hits his target. 

And in the 2nd round, Vimvis will go through the cycle again, definitely rolling on the WST once, possibly twice. 

Now, my argument for this potential double dipping is that the 2 listed features do not include any statements of exclusion. If the creators intended for the Tides of Chaos to supercede Wild Magic Surge, they would have inserted "Instead of rolling 1d20, immediately roll on the WST." 

And as secondary supporting argument, the additional chance at rolling on the WST is not game breaking. There is a small percentage of awesom power, but the oddsd are slim indeed, an additional 5% chance of getting on the WST and then a 4% of the 5% chance of something specific you'd want to happn to occur - like 2 fireballs in addition to the triggering spell. 

Vote on the poll to let me know if you think double dipping is fine RAW, or no way that's allowed! 
Or comment on other thoughts about this subject. 
Official rulings would also be appreciated. 

Thanks. 

No, the "automatically" language used is to be in lieu of rolling, not in addition to rolling.

A better question would be would a Wild Magic Sorcerer casting a spell with a spell slot in a Wild Magic Zone need to roll twice for Wild Magic Surge and could that result in two Wild Surge effects?

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

A better question would be would a Wild Magic Sorcerer casting a spell with a spell slot in a Wild Magic Zone need to roll twice for Wild Magic Surge and could that result in two Wild Surge effects?

Yes, because those are two separate, independent sources with different triggers. The trigger for the Sorcerous Wild Magic is casting a leveled spell with a spell slot. Wild Magic Zones typically cause a roll from casting a spell above a certain level.

Quote from Stabbey_TC >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

A better question would be would a Wild Magic Sorcerer casting a spell with a spell slot in a Wild Magic Zone need to roll twice for Wild Magic Surge and could that result in two Wild Surge effects?

 

Yes, because those are two separate, independent sources with different triggers. The trigger for the Sorcerous Wild Magic is casting a leveled spell with a spell slot. Wild Magic Zones typically cause a roll from casting a spell above a certain level.

Wild Magic Zones have the same trigger as the Sorcerer's Wild Magic, cast a spell with a spell slot. In both cases, if you don't use a spell slot, Wild Magic does not trigger.

I don't think that changes the answer, though. One trigger can have multiple effects, like leaving the reach of multiple enemies at the same time. Every one of them gets an OA if they have the reaction for it.

Quote from sabin76 >>

I don't think that changes the answer, though. One trigger can have multiple effects, like leaving the reach of multiple enemies at the same time. Every one of them gets an OA if they have the reaction for it.

I am not sure if you are saying that a Wild Magic Sorcerer in a Wild Magic Zone can double dip in the Wild Magic Surge table (the answer has changed) or that they cannot (the answer has not changed) by changing the scenario to where there are multiple independent Wild Magic Surge triggers.

I don't think it makes a lot of difference, but I suspect the intention is for the automatic surge to replace the roll for a surge.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from sabin76 >>

I don't think that changes the answer, though. One trigger can have multiple effects, like leaving the reach of multiple enemies at the same time. Every one of them gets an OA if they have the reaction for it.

I am not sure if you are saying that a Wild Magic Sorcerer in a Wild Magic Zone can double dip in the Wild Magic Surge table (the answer has changed) or that they cannot (the answer has not changed) by changing the scenario to where there are multiple independent Wild Magic Surge triggers.

I'm saying they can "double dip". Which is what Stabbey said, and you quoted with something that sounded a lot like countering their argument. I'm saying the point you brought up doesn't change the validity of Stabbey's response. Of course, this is without looking at the actual language of the WMZ and just going off of what others say it is.

Level 3: Wild Magic Surge

Your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect.

Level 3: Tides of Chaos

You can manipulate chaos itself to give yourself Advantage on one d20 Test before you roll the d20. Once you do so, you must cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot or finish a Long Rest before you can use this feature again.

If you do cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot before you finish a Long Rest, you automatically roll on the Wild Magic Surge table.

RAW, Tides of Chaos does not say that you replace your d20 roll to see if you get a surge, so yes.

RAI, I think it is pretty clear that it was intended to work as "you automatically roll on the Wild Magic Surge table in lieu of rolling a d20"

If a player wants more Wild Magic, they could always ask their DM for a Feywild Shard. This would definitely allow for getting multiple Wild Magic Surges even if you run the rules above as RAI. In fact, with the Feywild Shard doesn't have a limit per turn, so you could potentially get up to 5 surges in one turn at level 10 if you used a combination of Metamagics that can be used together. Sorcery Incarnate at level 7 lets you use two Metamagics if you have Innate Sorcery active, so you could use Distant Spell and Transmuted Spell when casting,  and then you could still use Seeking Spell and Empowered spell after the casting, triggering a total of 5 surges if your Tides of Chaos is due for a refresh. Player Beware!

I agree with Sequilonis regarding RAW vs RAI. I remember, somewhere, somehow, a similar question for 5e, and some people thought it was technically possible to chain both features (the DM intervenes in those rules anyway)

That said, I agree with sabin76 as well, and that's my ruling.

What I do, as I’ve played a lot of WMSs, is I’ll use Tides of Chaos as soon as possible, and then immediately roll on the WMS table to see what happens. I don’t think it’s possible to do so twice in one turn, as you can’t cast multiple levelled spells in the same turn. You can, however, do what I generally do. So, twice in one round? No. Twice in two rounds? It’s possible!

Quote from LinkArcher >>

What I do, as I’ve played a lot of WMSs, is I’ll use Tides of Chaos as soon as possible, and then immediately roll on the WMS table to see what happens. I don’t think it’s possible to do so twice in one turn, as you can’t cast multiple levelled spells in the same turn. You can, however, do what I generally do. So, twice in one round? No. Twice in two rounds? It’s possible!

 What the OP is stating is that the Wild Magic Surge from Tides of Chaos is triggered separately from the surges from the Wild Magic Surge feature. Technically, nothing says that the automatic surge from Tides of Chaos replaces the one you get every time you cast a spell with a spell slot, so if Tides of Chaos was used, you would get one automatic surge, then roll a d20 to see if you get a second surge.

Quote from Sequilonis >>

Quote from LinkArcher >>

What I do, as I’ve played a lot of WMSs, is I’ll use Tides of Chaos as soon as possible, and then immediately roll on the WMS table to see what happens. I don’t think it’s possible to do so twice in one turn, as you can’t cast multiple levelled spells in the same turn. You can, however, do what I generally do. So, twice in one round? No. Twice in two rounds? It’s possible!

 What the OP is stating is that the Wild Magic Surge from Tides of Chaos is triggered separately from the surges from the Wild Magic Surge feature. Technically, nothing says that the automatic surge from Tides of Chaos replaces the one you get every time you cast a spell with a spell slot, so if Tides of Chaos was used, you would get one automatic surge, then roll a d20 to see if you get a second surge.

 That makes sense. I generally forget to roll the d20, so I really only trigger it by using Tides of Chaos, then rolling on the table.

Quote from sabin76 >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from sabin76 >>

I don't think that changes the answer, though. One trigger can have multiple effects, like leaving the reach of multiple enemies at the same time. Every one of them gets an OA if they have the reaction for it.

I am not sure if you are saying that a Wild Magic Sorcerer in a Wild Magic Zone can double dip in the Wild Magic Surge table (the answer has changed) or that they cannot (the answer has not changed) by changing the scenario to where there are multiple independent Wild Magic Surge triggers.

I'm saying they can "double dip". Which is what Stabbey said, and you quoted with something that sounded a lot like countering their argument. I'm saying the point you brought up doesn't change the validity of Stabbey's response. Of course, this is without looking at the actual language of the WMZ and just going off of what others say it is.

I wasn't necessarily countering it. Stabbey_TC said that it worked because they were "independent sources with different triggers". If they are independent sources with the same trigger, does that change anything for Stabbey?

Quote from Sequilonis >>

If a player wants more Wild Magic, they could always ask their DM for a Feywild Shard. This would definitely allow for getting multiple Wild Magic Surges even if you run the rules above as RAI. In fact, with the Feywild Shard doesn't have a limit per turn, so you could potentially get up to 5 surges in one turn at level 10 if you used a combination of Metamagics that can be used together. Sorcery Incarnate at level 7 lets you use two Metamagics if you have Innate Sorcery active, so you could use Distant Spell and Transmuted Spell when casting,  and then you could still use Seeking Spell and Empowered spell after the casting, triggering a total of 5 surges if your Tides of Chaos is due for a refresh. Player Beware!

Theoretically the only limit is your Sorcery Points.

• Feywild Shard changes the trigger for the Wild Magic Surge from casting a spell with a Spell Slot to casting a spell with Metamagic meaning that spells cast without a spell slot can now trigger Wild Magic.
• I don't see a reason that you can't Metamagic a Cantrip.
• If the Wild Magic Surge result is a spell, you can't metamagic it, but if the result is an action (53-56) and you use it to cast a spell, the restriction doesn't apply.
• At level 20, with Arcane Apotheosis, you can use one Metamagic on your turn without spending points.
• The cheapest metamagic option is 1 sorcery point.

If you activate Innate Sorcery, then the next turn, you can theoretically cast 21 metamagic cantrips (20 sorcery points + 1 free), take a Bonus Action to convert a level 5 spell into to 7 Sorcery points, cast 7 more metamagic cantrips, then cast 1 Sorcerer spell with a spell slot and trigger a Wild Magic Surge normally for a total of 29 Wild Surges.

Is that correct? I tend to shy away from the randomness of Wild Magic.

Quote from sabin76 >>

No, the "automatically" language used is to be in lieu of rolling, not in addition to rolling.

 This is my understanding as well. WoTC offered limited guidance on this very topic in their article and video on the 5.5 Sorcerer.

2024 Sorcerer vs. 2014 Sorcerer: What’s New | Dungeons & Dragons 

New Sorcerer | 2024 Player's Handbook | D&D

Wild Magic Sorcery: Wild Magic surges now trigger on a 20 instead of a 1, and the Wild Magic Surge table has been reorganized, but its effects are all familiar. The Wild Magic Surge table itself has undergone quite the makeover, organizing similar effects into their own mini-rollable tables. (Don’t worry, you can still be transformed into a potted plant!) Casting a spell after using Tides of Chaos now automatically triggers a Wild Magic Surge. Bend Luck costs 1 Sorcery Point instead of 2. The subclass’ new capstone feature, Tamed Surges, allows you to trigger a Wild Magic Surge effect of your choice once per day.