Quote from Fateless>>If you want to seriously increase the power of this cantrip then. You don't really have to make it's damage increase to try to make it competative. All you have to do is alter how well it's Debuff works and when. Thus if you let it do one attack at first tier, 2 attacks at second tier, and so on. It actually becomes a fairly potent debuff (perhaps too potent in some respects) and thus keeps it's usefulness at all levels given the fact that it is no cost. But to some extent that might actually break the spirit of cantrips which kind of do mostly lose their value at higher levels.
I have never though of that change it could be very Intresting.
I only thought of it as I changed how I look at the spell and what it's actually doing and why to use it myself. Though as I said in my idea. it might be perhaps 2 powerful. It might be needed to limit it to only going up to 2 attacks so it doesn't completely shut down attackers and still gives them some chance being only a cantrip and wanting to limit it's power to usable but there might be something better at higher levels. Maybe doing the second one at the third tier upgrade. But that's wholely up to the table that tries such a possible alteration to it I suppose.
I know the thread is 4 years old, but that is exaclty the combo that drieves me nuts.
Vicicous mockery for 1-4 damage instead of using a crossbow which proabably would end the threat instead of just giving it disadanvtag on low levels or give a Paladin or Rogue advantge with your action;
and then cast a healing spell which is also a horrible move unless somebody is down. If somebody is down it's only a good move if he can get up before the enemy is on him again. Else he is laying on the ground giving all attackers advantage. When you heal somebody who is still standing its almost worthless cause what is the differnece between a fighter with 1 HP and 6 HP (not on level 1 of course). One hit of the enemy will down them anyway. Instead you could have used your magic for something usefull? And if you survive after the fight just take a short rest and all are happy and healing word was even more wasted?
I really don't understand how sombody can rationalise this a good strategy? Was hoping to understand this in this thread, but so far i hear its cantrip and not supposed to be good which if you compare it to firebolt and especially toll the dead i would say is not true and that the second part is very usefull, where i argue if you just killed it, that would be a lot more usefulll. Agreed if you attack a huge monster and it has not yet many multiatacks it may be worth it, but taht is very situational to use one of your precious cantrip slots. But again its not like the Bard has an alternative not even after tashas.
So i would understand if people would say it can be situationaly good, but usually better do a help action or take a crossbow as your main attack action. Maybe buy a magic missle wand if possible?
I know the thread is 4 years old, but that is exaclty the combo that drieves me nuts.
Vicicous mockery for 1-4 damage instead of using a crossbow which proabably would end the threat instead of just giving it disadanvtag on low levels or give a Paladin or Rogue advantge with your action;
and then cast a healing spell which is also a horrible move unless somebody is down. If somebody is down it's only a good move if he can get up before the enemy is on him again. Else he is laying on the ground giving all attackers advantage. When you heal somebody who is still standing its almost worthless cause what is the differnece between a fighter with 1 HP and 6 HP (not on level 1 of course). One hit of the enemy will down them anyway. Instead you could have used your magic for something usefull? And if you survive after the fight just take a short rest and all are happy and healing word was even more wasted?
I really don't understand how sombody can rationalise this a good strategy? Was hoping to understand this in this thread, but so far i hear its cantrip and not supposed to be good which if you compare it to firebolt and especially toll the dead i would say is not true and that the second part is very usefull, where i argue if you just killed it, that would be a lot more usefulll. Agreed if you attack a huge monster and it has not yet many multiatacks it may be worth it, but taht is very situational to use one of your precious cantrip slots. But again its not like the Bard has an alternative not even after tashas.
So i would understand if people would say it can be situationaly good, but usually better do a help action or take a crossbow as your main attack action. Maybe buy a magic missle wand if possible?
They rationalize it because of the disadvantage it offers on the next attack that creature makes. I do not personally subscribe to that thought, but that's what it boils down to.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Using healing word resets death save fails too. More importantly though, it lets your teammate (and presumably friend) do something, even if it's just go down again. I've laid there while my friends step over me to finish a combat, and it SUCKS, when one of them /could/ have used a potion or cast a spell to get me back up. The first duty of every player at the table is to try and make sure the other players and DM all have fun too.
You should absolutely be using healing word to get people back on their feet. If they choose to move away once they are back on their feet, the OA that they might take gets disadvantage (assuming a hit). It's one of the few scenarios where I think vicious mockery useful....because on an OA, you only /need/ one attack to be at disadvantage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
No sorry I agree on that part. And then the spell is even considered broken by a lot of people. I mean healing word for a non downed player. Just standing there with less then full health. For good luck nobdoy yet tried to use healing word on a fully healed person or i would just have left. Cause why would a standing player need 4-7 HP more and how would that justify using a 2nd lvel spell slot unless of course you only selcted situational spells, but even then i would hold it untill the player is down?
Or again healing word when a player is down and will be downed again until his time comes again. Sure it resets death saves, but that only matters if the win is near and then you should probably try to end it with the spell and not prolong his suffering for max 3 rounds?
No sorry I agree on that part. And then the spell is even considered broken by a lot of people. I mean healing word for a non downed player. Just standing there with less then full health. For good luck nobdoy yet tried to use healing word on a fully healed person or i would just have left. Cause why would a standing player need 4-7 HP more and how would that justify using a 2nd lvel spell slot unless of course you only selcted situational spells, but even then i would hold it untill the player is down?
Or again healing word when a player is down and will be downed again until his time comes again. Sure it resets death saves, but that only matters if the win is near and then you should probably try to end it with the spell and not prolong his suffering for max 3 rounds?
Healing Word on a non-downed player usually doesn't make much sense.
Past character level 1 or 2, it's generally not going to give enough HP to be worth it, so unless a teammate is low and you're facing creatures that can kill you in one hit, mathematically you're better off waiting until the teammate goes down.
And at character level 1 or 2, it might be worth it in terms of HP, but now you're only going to have at most three spell slots, all 1st-level, and burning one of them on a heal is probably tactically inferior. (At those levels, a Catapult or Magic Missile could probably be used instead to just win the fight.)
IMO, the best way to use Healing Word is, in general, to only use it in one of the following situations:
(1) on a downed player who is still being targeted by the enemy; (2) on a downed player who has failed one death save, regardless of other circumstances; (3) on a downed player whose damage output is crucial to winning, and who can at least deliver one blow before going down again; or (4) on a downed player, either (i) another healer, or (ii) your tank-iest teammate, in that preference order, when you're the only player left standing
No sorry I agree on that part. And then the spell is even considered broken by a lot of people. I mean healing word for a non downed player. Just standing there with less then full health. For good luck nobdoy yet tried to use healing word on a fully healed person or i would just have left. Cause why would a standing player need 4-7 HP more and how would that justify using a 2nd lvel spell slot unless of course you only selcted situational spells, but even then i would hold it untill the player is down?
Or again healing word when a player is down and will be downed again until his time comes again. Sure it resets death saves, but that only matters if the win is near and then you should probably try to end it with the spell and not prolong his suffering for max 3 rounds?
Yeah, don't use healing word on someone who's not down. Perhaps I misunderstood your original post, healing word before someone bites the floor is a waste. healing in general before someone goes down in combat, is usually a waste. There are edge cases where it's /not/ a waste (I pre-drop heal my party's barbarian because I do not want her to lose rage, and when she's raging she's only taking half damage), but for the most part, I favor only healing someone when they're down.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
While I agree with the points about Healing Word and when is best to use it, I think this is getting a bit off topic?
The query was whether Vicious Mockery makes a good combo for Healing Word; assuming the query is Bard specific (since Vicious Mockery is Bard specific) then the answer is yes… but. I think something a lot of people forget about when discussing the cantrip is that it doesn't actually matter how much better other cantrips are; if you're a Bard you can't have them without taking extra steps (going a specific race, taking feats, or using Magical Secrets picks etc.), so no matter how you get another cantrip you're sacrificing something to do-so.
Assuming you go vanilla, then when you do need to bring an ally back up with Healing Word, then Vicious Mockery is the cantrip you're most likely to be able cast alongside it, and it's… fine for that. You may or may not do more damage with an attack depending upon level, but if you can push disadvantage onto an enemy's attack then that can force them to miss either with one attack on their turn, or an attack of opportunity on someone else's, either way, that can mean more damage avoided for yourself or an ally, compared to the small amount of extra damage you might have done with something else (including other cantrips).
Vicious Mockery is a cantrip for use at earlier levels when you have few spell slots, or when you can't use anything else; there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it, and really no cantrip is substantially better than that, they're just different. It has a good range, and good combination of damage and save type to make it unlikely to be resisted, and it's got a good rider effect; might not swing a fight, but if it keeps an ally from going down (especially if you just brought them back up) then it's hardly a waste.
It's also worth noting that if your campaign permits optional class features from Tasha's Cauldron, then you can now swap out one cantrip every time you gain an Ability Score Improvement from the Bard class; so you can take Vicious Mockery at a low level, then drop it for another utility cantrip later once you have enough spell slots that you shouldn't need to fall back on cantrip use in combat so much. Personally I'd still keep it on a pure Bard unless your intended race, or a feat you plan to take anyway, will let you take something you think you'll use more; as it's still useful in cases such as Healing Word.
If the damage di was bigger, it'd probably be a bit too much. Its a damage type that is rarely resisted, and it has an additional effect aside from damage. Its not great, but its not bad.
Yes i agree part of the popularity is probably that tehre is no other cantrip available not even mind sliver which i find weird, but even Wizards who calculate damage befor using their cantrip use a longbow (if they are elf) or a crossbow else until level 4 eventhough the damage is only one damage better. Because after that cantrips do more damage. And again in the scenario when you attack like two big minions of course its a good strategy, but when you are attacked by a swarm of small oder medium threats it is a horrible strategy and thus my question. Then the disadvantage on one minion which statistacially should have anyway a really bad chance to hit the tank is not worth much probably like 5-10% less likely to hit. Instead with one or two shots you could have killed it. Or again if you have a rogue or a paladin in the party. They would propably love advantage. Or oyu could use minor ilussion to create cover for your party.... Create a rock that the rogue can use his cunnig action to hid behind.
My main problem is probably that the Bard and the Wizard are the best classes in the game, but not when you play them like archers. They need to use their spells creatively and then easily break the game (especially if the DM likes RAW the wording of some of this spells...), but if you just shoot out bad damage and use healing in case of the bard i think you are wasting its potential. And so far i have read a gasilion times why the bard is the strongest (which if you follow the logic seems plausible with magical secrets you can pick up all the best spells...) or second strong class and in actual play they are mostly dead weight. Which is weird when you think that Bards are probably strongest outside of combat its weird that they have so much potential in combat.
I mean Mind sliver has an ok second effect and is a D6 and is psycic damage. As the only damage cantrip for the bard i would say that is would be more then fair. I mean the damage is still not good with a D6. Even a D10 is not considered good damage. The reason people are so in love with Edlrich blast is the combo of the eldrich innovocation and HEx. Then you do 1-4 times D10+Charisma modifier (3-5)+D6 and shove the creature 10 feet back. That is on average 14 damage per beam.
Yes exactly thats my problem most people that I saw palying bard played them exactly like this. Wasting spell slots and doing almost no damage to enemies while concentrating on finding a not so funny line for vicious mockery. While the rest tries its best to somehow beat the enemy. As said they could have sit at home and don't play their chara their contribution is so minor.
But as said in the other post my main problem is probably after reading so much of the potential for bards i am always shocked when i see them in reality. But maybe it is really that class somehow mirrors personality. The wizards analyze stuff and break the game and the bards just wanna have fun. :)
And so far i have read a gasilion times why the bard is the strongest (which if you follow the logic seems plausible with magical secrets you can pick up all the best spells...) or second strong class and in actual play they are mostly dead weight. Which is weird when you think that Bards are probably strongest outside of combat its weird that they have so much potential in combat.
That's a crock, lol.
The spells aren't more powerful in the bard for having taken them than they were on the class from which the spell originated and is often worse lacking the spell features other classes have.
It's not "all the best spells". It's 2 good spells up to 5th-level when the bard finally gets to 10th level. It's 2 more good spells up to 7th-level if the bard ever gets to 14th level, and again finally only 2 spells of any level from any class if the bard ever gets to 18th level. That's delayed by the multi-classing players claim as optimal.
"All the best spells" are too numerous and too high a level for secrets to have that kind of power. It's a good ability, for sure, but it gets oversold.
Bards also have the weakest ritual casting of the ritual casters because of the spells known mechanic, generally have poor damage, are generally squishy, don't swap spells in rest, and lack the slot recovery options other casters have.
Bards also lack filling roles available to other spell casters because those spells aren't already on the bard list. Secrets is less about gaining a step up and more about compensating for the preexisting lack.
That's the bigger picture.
Bards are a lot of fun and because they have a lot of options available and are easier to customize, but secrets and how powerful bards are tends to get over-rated. ;-)
Then which is the best class in the game? :) which is actually a difficult question to answer cause what does best even mean but most people still have a opinion on this question?
i would say druid (moon) up till 5 and then from then on wizard (divination or chronurgy) and then illusion from level 14 om? (Eventhough illusion is about my least favorit subclass)
and the one about bards being one of the best classes as said it dont think there is one optimicer i have in my youtube list or blog i somtimes read that have not said something similar. But i agree so far i have not seen much proof of it?
Then which is the best class in the game? :) which is actually a difficult question to answer cause what does best even mean but most people still have a opinion on this question?
i would say druid (moon) up till 5 and then from then on wizard (divination or chronurgy) and then illusion from level 14 om? (Eventhough illusion is about my least favorit subclass)
and the one about bards being one of the best classes as said it dont think there is one optimicer i have in my youtube list or blog i somtimes read that have not said something similar. But i agree so far i have not seen much proof of it?
See that's the point of balancing out the classes and they really are pretty well balanced overall. There is no best class. There are perhaps best classes for certain scenario's but your not always going to run into those. You may run into ones where your class is really weak. This is why you have party members that fill in holes in your abilities by playing other classes. There is not combination or class or subclass that let's you do everything or gains you some significant boost of power over all the others.
The most powerful class is going to depend on a few things. First, the measure of how you define most powerful. Second, the player using the character.
Bards are certainly a contender for being the most powerful class. A player who spends their session thinking of corny things to say for vicious mockery and cutting words though, doesn't realize the power available to the class. Never underestimate the power of a player to ruin something good, with stupidity.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
First of all, the best class depends on both the player and the DM. A player may paly a PC poorly or well. A DM can make a PCs life great or hell if they like the player or the way the player plays the class.
A bard can't be the best class by himself. If you want to lay down some hurt by yourself (combat), a paladin would probably always outshine a bard. In social situations I don't see how you can beat a bard. In other non-combat situations a Rogue or a Druid might be the perfect class. It is so very situational.
But, a bard with two or three melee combat characters can make a huge difference; more than adding a fourth melee fighter. Once you have reached level 5 you have Song of Rest, which regenerates HP for free when the party takes a short rest. You have cutting words where you can essentially negate a hit once per round, at only the cost of 1 bardic inspiration die. You are able to recharge these B-I dice with another ability during a short rest, multiplying the effectiveness of your B-I dice. You may cast Bane, which effectively lower the AC of four enemies. You may cast Dissonant Whispers which often gives your party a free opportunity attack and does good damage. There several utility spells that you may select to help your party accomplish tasks. Outside of combat, you have all manner of skills. You can be the most persuasive, or the most intimidating or the most deceptive member of the party to talk an NPC into giving you help in one form or another.
Now if you don't enjoy the party succeeding unless it is due to your character dealing the killing blow, then you probably won't find the class fun, because you won't likely be going toe-to-toe with the BBEG for the party. But the player that did land the killing blow might well have accomplished this because of something you did to alter the probabilities by using your support capabilities well.
Now that my party of seven have reached level 6, I don't think they'll ever be happy if I am not playing a bard.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yes of course i mean the class played by an experienced player and/or build by an optimicer. :)
The best is probably difficult but certain classes are far better. I mean spellcasters are gods in higher levels while martials punch stuff abit more than normal. So no martial can even touch a full spellcaster at highest levels?
And the reason i rate wizards so high is animate object, simulacrum, wish... i mean if you compare hitting stuff to this kind of damages or control martials just fall flat. I guess we all can agree that a level 20 wizard and a level 20 fighter is easy ro say who does more damage, does better control.... sure he has more hp, but a diviner wizard would just polymorph him in a snail or teleport him into the sun cast dominate monster/person, catch a dragon use simulacrum on it, if the fighter wins iniative prepare contigency and the first turn of the fighter is wasted and then your turn is the end of the fight as described above. In the rare event you die have a clone in your pokcet dimension... and thats dueling while their actual speciality is battlefield control and divide and conquer.
while bard has the magical secrets where if you build a dps bard can take 5th level pala or rnager spells which usually need 18 levels or so. Like my Link (LoZ) valor bard uses swift quiver and sharpshootery thats 4 times d8+5+10 bowshots at level 10 or 12 id you take two level figherts than with action surge thats pretty nice nova damage. While being a skill monkey and alsoa full caster (and cast wish somewhere from level 18-20).
i mean even a prrson playing dnd for the first time can play a warlcok and just cast hex and shoot eldrich blast with the correct invocations. A non optimized martial cannot even compete with that? Thats 1-4 times a D10+5+D6 force damage/necro.
not to mention if you take creativity into account. I mean use move earth and create a deep hole. Use minor ilusion and if the enemy steps on the trap it takes 20d6 (70 average) damage at level 1? Is that highly likely to work often? No of course not, but what do you think people think of such things with a cantrip do with leveled spells?
I only thought of it as I changed how I look at the spell and what it's actually doing and why to use it myself. Though as I said in my idea. it might be perhaps 2 powerful. It might be needed to limit it to only going up to 2 attacks so it doesn't completely shut down attackers and still gives them some chance being only a cantrip and wanting to limit it's power to usable but there might be something better at higher levels. Maybe doing the second one at the third tier upgrade. But that's wholely up to the table that tries such a possible alteration to it I suppose.
I know the thread is 4 years old, but that is exaclty the combo that drieves me nuts.
Vicicous mockery for 1-4 damage instead of using a crossbow which proabably would end the threat instead of just giving it disadanvtag on low levels or give a Paladin or Rogue advantge with your action;
and then cast a healing spell which is also a horrible move unless somebody is down. If somebody is down it's only a good move if he can get up before the enemy is on him again. Else he is laying on the ground giving all attackers advantage. When you heal somebody who is still standing its almost worthless cause what is the differnece between a fighter with 1 HP and 6 HP (not on level 1 of course). One hit of the enemy will down them anyway. Instead you could have used your magic for something usefull? And if you survive after the fight just take a short rest and all are happy and healing word was even more wasted?
I really don't understand how sombody can rationalise this a good strategy? Was hoping to understand this in this thread, but so far i hear its cantrip and not supposed to be good which if you compare it to firebolt and especially toll the dead i would say is not true and that the second part is very usefull, where i argue if you just killed it, that would be a lot more usefulll. Agreed if you attack a huge monster and it has not yet many multiatacks it may be worth it, but taht is very situational to use one of your precious cantrip slots. But again its not like the Bard has an alternative not even after tashas.
So i would understand if people would say it can be situationaly good, but usually better do a help action or take a crossbow as your main attack action. Maybe buy a magic missle wand if possible?
They rationalize it because of the disadvantage it offers on the next attack that creature makes. I do not personally subscribe to that thought, but that's what it boils down to.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Thabk you and what about the healing word part of the combo?
Using healing word resets death save fails too. More importantly though, it lets your teammate (and presumably friend) do something, even if it's just go down again. I've laid there while my friends step over me to finish a combat, and it SUCKS, when one of them /could/ have used a potion or cast a spell to get me back up. The first duty of every player at the table is to try and make sure the other players and DM all have fun too.
You should absolutely be using healing word to get people back on their feet. If they choose to move away once they are back on their feet, the OA that they might take gets disadvantage (assuming a hit). It's one of the few scenarios where I think vicious mockery useful....because on an OA, you only /need/ one attack to be at disadvantage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
No sorry I agree on that part. And then the spell is even considered broken by a lot of people. I mean healing word for a non downed player. Just standing there with less then full health. For good luck nobdoy yet tried to use healing word on a fully healed person or i would just have left. Cause why would a standing player need 4-7 HP more and how would that justify using a 2nd lvel spell slot unless of course you only selcted situational spells, but even then i would hold it untill the player is down?
Or again healing word when a player is down and will be downed again until his time comes again. Sure it resets death saves, but that only matters if the win is near and then you should probably try to end it with the spell and not prolong his suffering for max 3 rounds?
Healing Word on a non-downed player usually doesn't make much sense.
Past character level 1 or 2, it's generally not going to give enough HP to be worth it, so unless a teammate is low and you're facing creatures that can kill you in one hit, mathematically you're better off waiting until the teammate goes down.
And at character level 1 or 2, it might be worth it in terms of HP, but now you're only going to have at most three spell slots, all 1st-level, and burning one of them on a heal is probably tactically inferior. (At those levels, a Catapult or Magic Missile could probably be used instead to just win the fight.)
IMO, the best way to use Healing Word is, in general, to only use it in one of the following situations:
(1) on a downed player who is still being targeted by the enemy;
(2) on a downed player who has failed one death save, regardless of other circumstances;
(3) on a downed player whose damage output is crucial to winning, and who can at least deliver one blow before going down again; or
(4) on a downed player, either (i) another healer, or (ii) your tank-iest teammate, in that preference order, when you're the only player left standing
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Yeah, don't use healing word on someone who's not down. Perhaps I misunderstood your original post, healing word before someone bites the floor is a waste. healing in general before someone goes down in combat, is usually a waste. There are edge cases where it's /not/ a waste (I pre-drop heal my party's barbarian because I do not want her to lose rage, and when she's raging she's only taking half damage), but for the most part, I favor only healing someone when they're down.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
While I agree with the points about Healing Word and when is best to use it, I think this is getting a bit off topic?
The query was whether Vicious Mockery makes a good combo for Healing Word; assuming the query is Bard specific (since Vicious Mockery is Bard specific) then the answer is yes… but. I think something a lot of people forget about when discussing the cantrip is that it doesn't actually matter how much better other cantrips are; if you're a Bard you can't have them without taking extra steps (going a specific race, taking feats, or using Magical Secrets picks etc.), so no matter how you get another cantrip you're sacrificing something to do-so.
Assuming you go vanilla, then when you do need to bring an ally back up with Healing Word, then Vicious Mockery is the cantrip you're most likely to be able cast alongside it, and it's… fine for that. You may or may not do more damage with an attack depending upon level, but if you can push disadvantage onto an enemy's attack then that can force them to miss either with one attack on their turn, or an attack of opportunity on someone else's, either way, that can mean more damage avoided for yourself or an ally, compared to the small amount of extra damage you might have done with something else (including other cantrips).
Vicious Mockery is a cantrip for use at earlier levels when you have few spell slots, or when you can't use anything else; there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it, and really no cantrip is substantially better than that, they're just different. It has a good range, and good combination of damage and save type to make it unlikely to be resisted, and it's got a good rider effect; might not swing a fight, but if it keeps an ally from going down (especially if you just brought them back up) then it's hardly a waste.
It's also worth noting that if your campaign permits optional class features from Tasha's Cauldron, then you can now swap out one cantrip every time you gain an Ability Score Improvement from the Bard class; so you can take Vicious Mockery at a low level, then drop it for another utility cantrip later once you have enough spell slots that you shouldn't need to fall back on cantrip use in combat so much. Personally I'd still keep it on a pure Bard unless your intended race, or a feat you plan to take anyway, will let you take something you think you'll use more; as it's still useful in cases such as Healing Word.
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Vicious mockery makes a good combo with slow not that it's on the bard list using TCoE options.
If the damage di was bigger, it'd probably be a bit too much. Its a damage type that is rarely resisted, and it has an additional effect aside from damage. Its not great, but its not bad.
Yes i agree part of the popularity is probably that tehre is no other cantrip available not even mind sliver which i find weird, but even Wizards who calculate damage befor using their cantrip use a longbow (if they are elf) or a crossbow else until level 4 eventhough the damage is only one damage better. Because after that cantrips do more damage. And again in the scenario when you attack like two big minions of course its a good strategy, but when you are attacked by a swarm of small oder medium threats it is a horrible strategy and thus my question. Then the disadvantage on one minion which statistacially should have anyway a really bad chance to hit the tank is not worth much probably like 5-10% less likely to hit. Instead with one or two shots you could have killed it. Or again if you have a rogue or a paladin in the party. They would propably love advantage. Or oyu could use minor ilussion to create cover for your party.... Create a rock that the rogue can use his cunnig action to hid behind.
My main problem is probably that the Bard and the Wizard are the best classes in the game, but not when you play them like archers. They need to use their spells creatively and then easily break the game (especially if the DM likes RAW the wording of some of this spells...), but if you just shoot out bad damage and use healing in case of the bard i think you are wasting its potential. And so far i have read a gasilion times why the bard is the strongest (which if you follow the logic seems plausible with magical secrets you can pick up all the best spells...) or second strong class and in actual play they are mostly dead weight. Which is weird when you think that Bards are probably strongest outside of combat its weird that they have so much potential in combat.
I mean Mind sliver has an ok second effect and is a D6 and is psycic damage. As the only damage cantrip for the bard i would say that is would be more then fair. I mean the damage is still not good with a D6. Even a D10 is not considered good damage. The reason people are so in love with Edlrich blast is the combo of the eldrich innovocation and HEx. Then you do 1-4 times D10+Charisma modifier (3-5)+D6 and shove the creature 10 feet back. That is on average 14 damage per beam.
Yes exactly thats my problem most people that I saw palying bard played them exactly like this. Wasting spell slots and doing almost no damage to enemies while concentrating on finding a not so funny line for vicious mockery. While the rest tries its best to somehow beat the enemy. As said they could have sit at home and don't play their chara their contribution is so minor.
But as said in the other post my main problem is probably after reading so much of the potential for bards i am always shocked when i see them in reality. But maybe it is really that class somehow mirrors personality. The wizards analyze stuff and break the game and the bards just wanna have fun. :)
The artificer armor attack is better because it either forces disadvantage on more attacks and does more damage, or draws attacks to a high AC target.
Like I said above though, now that slow is a bard spell it pairs well with vicious mockery.
That's a crock, lol.
The spells aren't more powerful in the bard for having taken them than they were on the class from which the spell originated and is often worse lacking the spell features other classes have.
It's not "all the best spells". It's 2 good spells up to 5th-level when the bard finally gets to 10th level. It's 2 more good spells up to 7th-level if the bard ever gets to 14th level, and again finally only 2 spells of any level from any class if the bard ever gets to 18th level. That's delayed by the multi-classing players claim as optimal.
"All the best spells" are too numerous and too high a level for secrets to have that kind of power. It's a good ability, for sure, but it gets oversold.
Bards also have the weakest ritual casting of the ritual casters because of the spells known mechanic, generally have poor damage, are generally squishy, don't swap spells in rest, and lack the slot recovery options other casters have.
Bards also lack filling roles available to other spell casters because those spells aren't already on the bard list. Secrets is less about gaining a step up and more about compensating for the preexisting lack.
That's the bigger picture.
Bards are a lot of fun and because they have a lot of options available and are easier to customize, but secrets and how powerful bards are tends to get over-rated. ;-)
Then which is the best class in the game? :) which is actually a difficult question to answer cause what does best even mean but most people still have a opinion on this question?
i would say druid (moon) up till 5 and then from then on wizard (divination or chronurgy) and then illusion from level 14 om? (Eventhough illusion is about my least favorit subclass)
and the one about bards being one of the best classes as said it dont think there is one optimicer i have in my youtube list or blog i somtimes read that have not said something similar. But i agree so far i have not seen much proof of it?
See that's the point of balancing out the classes and they really are pretty well balanced overall. There is no best class. There are perhaps best classes for certain scenario's but your not always going to run into those. You may run into ones where your class is really weak. This is why you have party members that fill in holes in your abilities by playing other classes. There is not combination or class or subclass that let's you do everything or gains you some significant boost of power over all the others.
The most powerful class is going to depend on a few things. First, the measure of how you define most powerful. Second, the player using the character.
Bards are certainly a contender for being the most powerful class. A player who spends their session thinking of corny things to say for vicious mockery and cutting words though, doesn't realize the power available to the class. Never underestimate the power of a player to ruin something good, with stupidity.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
First of all, the best class depends on both the player and the DM. A player may paly a PC poorly or well. A DM can make a PCs life great or hell if they like the player or the way the player plays the class.
A bard can't be the best class by himself. If you want to lay down some hurt by yourself (combat), a paladin would probably always outshine a bard. In social situations I don't see how you can beat a bard. In other non-combat situations a Rogue or a Druid might be the perfect class. It is so very situational.
But, a bard with two or three melee combat characters can make a huge difference; more than adding a fourth melee fighter. Once you have reached level 5 you have Song of Rest, which regenerates HP for free when the party takes a short rest. You have cutting words where you can essentially negate a hit once per round, at only the cost of 1 bardic inspiration die. You are able to recharge these B-I dice with another ability during a short rest, multiplying the effectiveness of your B-I dice. You may cast Bane, which effectively lower the AC of four enemies. You may cast Dissonant Whispers which often gives your party a free opportunity attack and does good damage. There several utility spells that you may select to help your party accomplish tasks. Outside of combat, you have all manner of skills. You can be the most persuasive, or the most intimidating or the most deceptive member of the party to talk an NPC into giving you help in one form or another.
Now if you don't enjoy the party succeeding unless it is due to your character dealing the killing blow, then you probably won't find the class fun, because you won't likely be going toe-to-toe with the BBEG for the party. But the player that did land the killing blow might well have accomplished this because of something you did to alter the probabilities by using your support capabilities well.
Now that my party of seven have reached level 6, I don't think they'll ever be happy if I am not playing a bard.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yes of course i mean the class played by an experienced player and/or build by an optimicer. :)
The best is probably difficult but certain classes are far better. I mean spellcasters are gods in higher levels while martials punch stuff abit more than normal. So no martial can even touch a full spellcaster at highest levels?
And the reason i rate wizards so high is animate object, simulacrum, wish... i mean if you compare hitting stuff to this kind of damages or control martials just fall flat. I guess we all can agree that a level 20 wizard and a level 20 fighter is easy ro say who does more damage, does better control.... sure he has more hp, but a diviner wizard would just polymorph him in a snail or teleport him into the sun cast dominate monster/person, catch a dragon use simulacrum on it, if the fighter wins iniative prepare contigency and the first turn of the fighter is wasted and then your turn is the end of the fight as described above. In the rare event you die have a clone in your pokcet dimension... and thats dueling while their actual speciality is battlefield control and divide and conquer.
while bard has the magical secrets where if you build a dps bard can take 5th level pala or rnager spells which usually need 18 levels or so. Like my Link (LoZ) valor bard uses swift quiver and sharpshootery thats 4 times d8+5+10 bowshots at level 10 or 12 id you take two level figherts than with action surge thats pretty nice nova damage. While being a skill monkey and alsoa full caster (and cast wish somewhere from level 18-20).
i mean even a prrson playing dnd for the first time can play a warlcok and just cast hex and shoot eldrich blast with the correct invocations. A non optimized martial cannot even compete with that? Thats 1-4 times a D10+5+D6 force damage/necro.
not to mention if you take creativity into account. I mean use move earth and create a deep hole. Use minor ilusion and if the enemy steps on the trap it takes 20d6 (70 average) damage at level 1? Is that highly likely to work often? No of course not, but what do you think people think of such things with a cantrip do with leveled spells?