My eloquence bard essentially crippled melee enemies with unsettling words and vicious mockery. Casters got unsettling words and slow. It got to the point that monsters curiously started to target the wee bard instead of the hulking fighter at the onset of battles.
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DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form| Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock | He/Him/They/Them
Honestly, I think that Vicious Mockery should get bonus damage and an increased DC as you level up or something like that. As it stands, I think its fine as an easy-to-use, reliable cantrip similar to firebolt (my first character's signature spell), but it definitely needs something to make it stand out from every other generic damage cantrip, especially considering that you have to go out of your way to pick a Bard in order to use it.
Honestly, I think that Vicious Mockery should get bonus damage and an increased DC as you level up or something like that.
You mean, beyond the increase in number of damage dice at levels 5, 11 and 17, and beyond the standard DC increase from advancing Proficiency Bonus and any improvements to your Charisma modifier?
it definitely needs something to make it stand out from every other generic damage cantrip.
You mean in addition to the disadvantage it imposes on attack rolls?
especially considering that you have to go out of your way to pick a Bard in order to use it.
You have to go out of your way to play a bard?!? I have to go out of my way not to lots of times.
This^^^
I too have to practically force myself to consider a class other than bard because the class is simply awesome. It has been two years almost to the day since my last post here and I still strongly disagree that VM needs a damage boost. The value in VM is not in the damage but the effect. If you understand how valuable imposing disadvantage is, you would know it needs nothing else. As a cantrip, it is a major single target debuff and you get to have some extra damage sprinkled in too.
My DM ended up going meta as hell and started to target me at the beginning of battles despite being surrounded by big strong melee PCs who were bucking for fights. That is how much of a pain in the ass I was with my bard.
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DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form| Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock | He/Him/They/Them
I don't really know if it is mechanically balanced but I use it regularly and it has often been very useful. I think it is very valuable for the roleplay opportunities it presents. Nobody else has the ability to insult an ogre to death. The ability to cause a hydra to lose its head to a "yo mama" joke is incredibly valuable.
I think I've not used it as regularly up to now as when I have used it, most targets have saved - even the dumb ones. I probably could have tried harder - or combined it with a casting of Bane first.
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Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
I think I've not used it as regularly up to now as when I have used it, most targets have saved - even the dumb ones. I probably could have tried harder - or combined it with a casting of Bane first.
Be choosy with your targets. Most of the baddies that look like they would have a low Wis Save do. At level 3 running standard array, you can have 17 to Charisma, which translates to a 13 spell DC. That's not very high and if you are slinging Vicious Mockery at other casters, it will often fail. Bane is a good idea if you are not running an Eloquence Bard but it will cause a multi-turn ramp up. That's fine because Bane will likely work on at least one target and that can be the one you focus on, but it will probably be more satisfying to just be selective with your targets until your charisma and proficiency catch up.
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DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form| Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock | He/Him/They/Them
Like most cantrips vicious mockery is all-or-nothing, the target either fails or it doesn't, while an attack cantrip either hits or it doesn't. The benefit of attack cantrips is that it's usually easier to boost them (it's generally better/more reliable to bless the party than to bane enemies, though if you can do both in combo with a cleric or such that's rarely going to be a bad thing).
That said, it's also easier for enemies to interfere with attack rolls if they use cover properly, but that's an aspect of the game that's all too often forgotten about – this also works for Dexterity saving throw effects, which is why sacred flame ignoring them is important. Always remember to use cover, folks (and that applies both to players and DMs)!
Bane is a good idea if you are not running an Eloquence Bard but it will cause a multi-turn ramp up.
I feel like bane's a good idea even for the Eloquence Bard, as two penalties to the saving throw is even better than one. That said, I'd probably save the doubling up for something with more impact than vicious mockery so it's still fair.
When it comes to actually using vicious mockery, I try to keep in mind what else I can be doing on the turn, rather than making vicious mockery my whole turn, as that's how you end up disappointed. But as a way to insult an enemy with the same sentence you use to (bardically) inspire an ally, or to add insult to injury on top of continuing heat metal? Much more satisfying!
Otherwise vicious mockery is fine for what it is in 5e, but when a Bard is trying to save resources it can be a bit underwhelming if it's the only thing you're doing on the turn.
In terms of fixing it though, these days I think I'd rather see vicious mockery gain targets rather than gain damage; why should a Bard be limited to only mocking one creature at a time? A skilled Bard should be able to cope with more than one heckler (enemy) at once! The piddling little 1d4 damage is less of an issue if you can potentially inflict disadvantage on multiple enemies at once, better yet if you can inflict disadvantage more than once to the same enemy (e.g- at 11th-level you pick the same target three times, it fails twice so its next two attacks are at disadvantage). If that would tip the balance, they could adjust it to "disadvantage against targets other than you", i.e- make it a true risk/reward taunt ability that emphasises either using it at range (enemy can't get to you, hopefully) or with some plan to survive them (Swords/Valor Bard, defensive spells, allies etc.). It would also make the cantrip a lot more interesting for picking up on other classes, or multi-classing to get it, since it could support proper tank builds.
That's true - I have tried to be picky, but even the baddies that should have low WIS save, often did. And when I failed, I generally then tried something else.
Now my CHA and proficiency have caught up (level 9) there's a 17 save, so should be a bit better now.
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Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
I honsestly have never used this spell, but it just seems like a joke like ¨HA!¨ and done kind of thing but using it every battle... nah that's to much
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All the high-fashion freaks sway in sync with the rhythm Back and forth, back and forth
All the pill connoisseurs and the secret saboteurs Got the fever for surveillance and the nightlife
I don't really know if it is mechanically balanced but I use it regularly and it has often been very useful. I think it is very valuable for the roleplay opportunities it presents. Nobody else has the ability to insult an ogre to death. The ability to cause a hydra to lose its head to a "yo mama" joke is incredibly valuable.
I honsestly have never used this spell, but it just seems like a joke like ¨HA!¨ and done kind of thing but using it every battle... nah that's to much
I honsestly have never used this spell, but it just seems like a joke like ¨HA!¨ and done kind of thing but using it every battle... nah that's to much
I honsestly have never used this spell, but it just seems like a joke like ¨HA!¨ and done kind of thing but using it every battle... nah that's to much
The debuff is why its amazing. Forcing disadvantage can be life saving for a party.
My eloquence bard essentially crippled melee enemies with unsettling words and vicious mockery. Casters got unsettling words and slow. It got to the point that monsters curiously started to target the wee bard instead of the hulking fighter at the onset of battles.
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Honestly, I think that Vicious Mockery should get bonus damage and an increased DC as you level up or something like that. As it stands, I think its fine as an easy-to-use, reliable cantrip similar to firebolt (my first character's signature spell), but it definitely needs something to make it stand out from every other generic damage cantrip, especially considering that you have to go out of your way to pick a Bard in order to use it.
You mean, beyond the increase in number of damage dice at levels 5, 11 and 17, and beyond the standard DC increase from advancing Proficiency Bonus and any improvements to your Charisma modifier?
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You mean in addition to the disadvantage it imposes on attack rolls?
You have to go out of your way to play a bard?!? I have to go out of my way not to lots of times.
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This^^^
I too have to practically force myself to consider a class other than bard because the class is simply awesome. It has been two years almost to the day since my last post here and I still strongly disagree that VM needs a damage boost. The value in VM is not in the damage but the effect. If you understand how valuable imposing disadvantage is, you would know it needs nothing else. As a cantrip, it is a major single target debuff and you get to have some extra damage sprinkled in too.
My DM ended up going meta as hell and started to target me at the beginning of battles despite being surrounded by big strong melee PCs who were bucking for fights. That is how much of a pain in the ass I was with my bard.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock | He/Him/They/Them
You can try DDB for free using the Basic Rules, free adventures, MCV1:SC, and homebrew. Answers about physical books, purchases, and subbing.
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I don't really know if it is mechanically balanced but I use it regularly and it has often been very useful. I think it is very valuable for the roleplay opportunities it presents. Nobody else has the ability to insult an ogre to death. The ability to cause a hydra to lose its head to a "yo mama" joke is incredibly valuable.
Always two maybe three
I think I've not used it as regularly up to now as when I have used it, most targets have saved - even the dumb ones. I probably could have tried harder - or combined it with a casting of Bane first.
Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
Orryn Pebblefoot - Lvl 5 Rock Gnome Wizard (Deceased) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (Deceased)
Anerin Ap Tewdr - Lvl 5 Human (Variant) Bard (College of Valor) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist
Be choosy with your targets. Most of the baddies that look like they would have a low Wis Save do. At level 3 running standard array, you can have 17 to Charisma, which translates to a 13 spell DC. That's not very high and if you are slinging Vicious Mockery at other casters, it will often fail. Bane is a good idea if you are not running an Eloquence Bard but it will cause a multi-turn ramp up. That's fine because Bane will likely work on at least one target and that can be the one you focus on, but it will probably be more satisfying to just be selective with your targets until your charisma and proficiency catch up.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock | He/Him/They/Them
You can try DDB for free using the Basic Rules, free adventures, MCV1:SC, and homebrew. Answers about physical books, purchases, and subbing.
What is it like to be on the forums.
Like most cantrips vicious mockery is all-or-nothing, the target either fails or it doesn't, while an attack cantrip either hits or it doesn't. The benefit of attack cantrips is that it's usually easier to boost them (it's generally better/more reliable to bless the party than to bane enemies, though if you can do both in combo with a cleric or such that's rarely going to be a bad thing).
That said, it's also easier for enemies to interfere with attack rolls if they use cover properly, but that's an aspect of the game that's all too often forgotten about – this also works for Dexterity saving throw effects, which is why sacred flame ignoring them is important. Always remember to use cover, folks (and that applies both to players and DMs)!
I feel like bane's a good idea even for the Eloquence Bard, as two penalties to the saving throw is even better than one. That said, I'd probably save the doubling up for something with more impact than vicious mockery so it's still fair.
When it comes to actually using vicious mockery, I try to keep in mind what else I can be doing on the turn, rather than making vicious mockery my whole turn, as that's how you end up disappointed. But as a way to insult an enemy with the same sentence you use to (bardically) inspire an ally, or to add insult to injury on top of continuing heat metal? Much more satisfying!
Otherwise vicious mockery is fine for what it is in 5e, but when a Bard is trying to save resources it can be a bit underwhelming if it's the only thing you're doing on the turn.
In terms of fixing it though, these days I think I'd rather see vicious mockery gain targets rather than gain damage; why should a Bard be limited to only mocking one creature at a time? A skilled Bard should be able to cope with more than one heckler (enemy) at once! The piddling little 1d4 damage is less of an issue if you can potentially inflict disadvantage on multiple enemies at once, better yet if you can inflict disadvantage more than once to the same enemy (e.g- at 11th-level you pick the same target three times, it fails twice so its next two attacks are at disadvantage). If that would tip the balance, they could adjust it to "disadvantage against targets other than you", i.e- make it a true risk/reward taunt ability that emphasises either using it at range (enemy can't get to you, hopefully) or with some plan to survive them (Swords/Valor Bard, defensive spells, allies etc.). It would also make the cantrip a lot more interesting for picking up on other classes, or multi-classing to get it, since it could support proper tank builds.
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That's true - I have tried to be picky, but even the baddies that should have low WIS save, often did. And when I failed, I generally then tried something else.
Now my CHA and proficiency have caught up (level 9) there's a 17 save, so should be a bit better now.
Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
Orryn Pebblefoot - Lvl 5 Rock Gnome Wizard (Deceased) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (Deceased)
Anerin Ap Tewdr - Lvl 5 Human (Variant) Bard (College of Valor) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist
It is good for roleplay but the damage is terrible
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[Flourishing], [Sanguine],[Themberchaud],[Pride],[Baldur's Gate 3], [Lego].I honsestly have never used this spell, but it just seems like a joke like ¨HA!¨ and done kind of thing but using it every battle... nah that's to much
All the high-fashion freaks sway in sync with the rhythm
Back and forth, back and forth
Got the fever for surveillance and the nightlife
Hilarious and so true!
The debuff is why its amazing. Forcing disadvantage can be life saving for a party.
It's great. Our DM has us come up with the insults as a party, then vote on the best one.
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