Let me think this through. I dislike Frostbite which is very similar, but a con save and cold damage. VM is superior with pyschic damage and wis save. However, with a D6 average damage goes up a bit and doesn't need to get to level 17 to pull in front of a single shot from a crossbow. At level 5, a D6 VM averages 7 damage, while the crossbow is 7.5, so fairly close. Toss on the psychic damage, and the attack disadvantage rider, when I consider the math, I'd have to say yeah. VM with a D6 would be pretty solid. It's useful early on and doesn't become useless later on.
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FYI - this isn't a trick question, but I'm honestly curious what exactly it would involve to make VM "not suck" in others' opinion.
My opinion has been that even if you calculate VM to be balanced next to the other attack cantrips (and I don't really see how you can,) that d4 makes it FEEL like it sucks at the very least.
I'd say bumping the damage die up to a d6 would (1) make it more balanced compared to other attack cantrips, and (2) make it so bard players don't feel cheated, especially if they aren't personally witty enough to take advantage of "how fun" everyone seems to think the spell is.
VM also works on all attacks, Frostbite only works on weapon attacks.
Huh. I'd completely overlooked that.
Wow, Frostbite's really not looking so hot here either.
No, VM is way better IMHO. I look at VM as “some damage and a cool affect” early on, and as “I can give that whatever disadvantage on its next attack, and do a little damage too, and it’s free” later on. When giving that spellcaster disadvantage on their single attack spell would be super helpful, VM is clutch.
Wow, Frostbite's really not looking so hot here either.
Pun intended?
To be fair, the amount of times you have a monster making an attack roll that isn't a weapon attack is very small. A brief glance over spellcasting and spell-like ability enemies shows that the overwhelming majority call for saves instead of attack rolls - the only one I can think of with a melee/ranged spell attack is a handful of fiends and enemy wizards/warlocks/clerics/etc who have cantrips. And most of the time they have actual spells with save DCs. And fairly high WIS saves.
All in all, unless I'm missing something obvious, I think the difference is negligible for the overwhelming majority of monsters.
IMO it's good at lower levels, kind of meh at higher levels. The damage is dismal, and as you go up in level enemies start having more and more multi-attacks. Vicious Mockery only affects one attack.
I do like the idea of literally insulting someone to death, though.
More than the damage is the ability to force disadvantage on the enemy WHILE doing damage at a distance while only using a cantrip slot. That and being accessable at first level.
The only thing better than healing is preventing the damage in the first place.
IMO it's good at lower levels, kind of meh at higher levels. The damage is dismal, and as you go up in level enemies start having more and more multi-attacks. Vicious Mockery only affects one attack.
I do like the idea of literally insulting someone to death, though.
The ideal way to use it is to combine it with something like Bane. Once the enemy is rolling with disadvantage and has -1d4 to each roll you will really notice how effective it is. Not to mention the small amount of damage. That said you don't want to do huge damage, let the melee guys keep the aggro while you keep concentrating on Bane. At higher levels with multiple attacks it gets less useful but by then you have other tricks in your arsenal.
It's because utility cantrips are too useful in comparison when cantrips known are limited.
The damage isn't much but cantrips generally have low damage even if this is lower. The secondary effects are usually what's attractive and at low levels it's poor damage with a relatively low save DC in addition to being limited in cantrips known, and at higher levels it's an effect that can be found in many places.
It's because utility cantrips are too useful in comparison when cantrips known are limited.
The damage isn't much but cantrips generally have low damage even if this is lower. The secondary effects are usually what's attractive and at low levels it's poor damage with a relatively low save DC in addition to being limited in cantrips known, and at higher levels it's an effect that can be found in many places.
Out of curiosity, does this mean you almost never take an attack cantrip in general, or just that VM doesn't make the cut as one?
It's because utility cantrips are too useful in comparison when cantrips known are limited.
The damage isn't much but cantrips generally have low damage even if this is lower. The secondary effects are usually what's attractive and at low levels it's poor damage with a relatively low save DC in addition to being limited in cantrips known, and at higher levels it's an effect that can be found in many places.
Out of curiosity, does this mean you almost never take an attack cantrip in general, or just that VM doesn't make the cut as one?
I usually avoid attack cantrips altogether on bards, but have taken them occasionally. Usually it's for a better at-will damage option through secrets on a caster style college, or based on a flavor style.
The damage portion isn't better than TWF or a crossbow until higher levels. The disadvantage is useful but the competition with how many cantrips I can learn usually turns into wanting something when there are other means to cause disadvantage.
On warlocks eldritch blast has many enhancers so it's typical. On sorcerer metamagics work well with damage cantrips so that's typical. Wizards may as well use a crossbow for damage until 6th or 11th level unless the subclass works with cantrips but have a wider variety of rider effects and one more cantrip known. The effects are what really matter.
I quite often wait for 4th level before picking up that damage cantrip on other casters when another cantrip becomes available, and also in preparation for the added damage die.
Secrets or a feat to grab damage cantrips from another classes is a pretty steep cost for minor effects. Vicious mockery isn't a bad spell but utility spells provide more versatility and become heavy competition for cantrips known. If I want a better at-will damage option on a bard it's more readily available using extra attack from subclasses. So I usually rely on weapons, items, and spell slots instead of attack cantrips on a bard.
I'd say "Early Levels it's good", but leaning towards the "Most of the time Useless" category, and "Completely Useless" at higher levels.
For Damage output 1/5: Early levels benefit pretty well from it; enemies rarely have high wisdom saves and the d4 damage isn't that much less than other options in the beginning. Later on, it becomes probably the weakest attack at level 17 when you'd probably do better throwing real caltrops on the ground instead. 4-16 damage at level 17 is a waste of a action really no matter what added bonus.
As a guaranteed source of damage 3/5: Obviously can go either way depending on the target. The psychic damage property is probably the rarest damage type to be resistant; but the Wisdom save is 50/50. <Though I will say that Wisdom saves by normal NPC's/enemies leans more in your favor, but any big-shot that you do battle with will undoubtedly have this ability score pretty high. Monster Abilities Part 5 - Wisdom | DMDave | Fifth Edition Monsters, Maps, and More <pretty useful for figuring out what may or may not save.
The added Effect of Disadvantage on next attack 2/5: Versus another spellcaster (those who would use spells and things that don't utilize attacks and instead do AOE/Save Spells) then this cantrip is nearly guaranteed to be useless. Firstly being that its chance of doing its paltry damage is next to nil (especially vs a wisdom-based spellcaster), but then it has no added effects against players if they are not making a attack roll.
The Only opponents you'd be using this against will likely be when/if you know that they can't readily resist it and then it only works with the next attack; so any enemy that can make two attacks will still get a solid swing in. If the target does have only one attack, then it could be very useful to spam it and let your team take care of the rest.
Overall 2/5: The damage is appalling, while the chance to even hit the target is mediocre, and the icing on the cake being that giving a enemy disadvantage might not make that much of a difference.
Now it's not that this spell hasn't come in handy before, sparing teams from death where a monster that rolled a nat20 has to reroll and ends up with a nat1 or failure, but there are so many other options out there that this spell is definitely on the weaker sides and possibly one the top 3 weakest in terms of combat-use. <BUT (and there is a pretty important thing not said) WHO DOESN'T WANT TO KILL THE BIG BAD WITH A "Yo' Mama" JOKE?!
Added Note: In order for this spell to have any sort of standing, I believe it would need to add your charisma modifier to the damage dealt to boost at least that aspect.
I think the spell is fine as it is, as Wisdom Save's are probably the best Save Option against most melee Monsters and the lower damage balances this out.
HOWEVER, I really liked the idea that someone suggested previously, in that as opposed to increasing Damage Dice per tier, you instead increase the number of "targets"... similar to Eldritch Blast. If you were going to home brew this, I think you would need to include a range between the targets reasonable.. but I think the DM would have to flavor a solid Role Played insult to all of the targets.
If I was going to home brew a tier based increase to this spell it would actually be to affect more attacks the more that you go up in tiers of Cantrips.
I'll give my reasoning behind this. I used to think Vicious Mockery was really bad. Even with it's damage type because it's damage is so low to almost be laughable on an attack/save spell. Specially an all or nothing one. The damage might be reasonable on a (mostly) guaranteed hit like magic missile. but it's really low when you consider having a miss chance applied to it and something you might potentially use constantly (at least at lower level). But as I talked it over with a few people and really got down to analyzing the spell. I realized that Vicious Mockery isn't your typical attack spell despite being laid out like one. It's a debuff spell with a (barely) scaling damage dice rider. The damage is really the secondary effect. The real reason to cast it is that ability to inflict disadvantage on whatever you happen to land it on. But right now it's use is somewhat limited because Many Melee attackers make at least two attacks. And many spell casters also have save spells in their arsenal which gets around the issue of disadvantage on attack rolls. So what can make this cantrip strong at low levels and less so at middle levels to only minorly so at high levels for most opponents is the fact that it's main effect doesn't actually scale.
If you want to seriously increase the power of this cantrip then. You don't really have to make it's damage increase to try to make it competative. All you have to do is alter how well it's Debuff works and when. Thus if you let it do one attack at first tier, 2 attacks at second tier, and so on. It actually becomes a fairly potent debuff (perhaps too potent in some respects) and thus keeps it's usefulness at all levels given the fact that it is no cost. But to some extent that might actually break the spirit of cantrips which kind of do mostly lose their value at higher levels.
Quote from Fateless>>If you want to seriously increase the power of this cantrip then. You don't really have to make it's damage increase to try to make it competative. All you have to do is alter how well it's Debuff works and when. Thus if you let it do one attack at first tier, 2 attacks at second tier, and so on. It actually becomes a fairly potent debuff (perhaps too potent in some respects) and thus keeps it's usefulness at all levels given the fact that it is no cost. But to some extent that might actually break the spirit of cantrips which kind of do mostly lose their value at higher levels.
I have never though of that change it could be very Intresting.
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^^
Not sure tbh. I'd give it a solid maybe?
Let me think this through. I dislike Frostbite which is very similar, but a con save and cold damage. VM is superior with pyschic damage and wis save. However, with a D6 average damage goes up a bit and doesn't need to get to level 17 to pull in front of a single shot from a crossbow. At level 5, a D6 VM averages 7 damage, while the crossbow is 7.5, so fairly close. Toss on the psychic damage, and the attack disadvantage rider, when I consider the math, I'd have to say yeah. VM with a D6 would be pretty solid. It's useful early on and doesn't become useless later on.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
VM also works on all attacks, Frostbite only works on weapon attacks.
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Okay, cool. Thanks for the answer.
My opinion has been that even if you calculate VM to be balanced next to the other attack cantrips (and I don't really see how you can,) that d4 makes it FEEL like it sucks at the very least.
I'd say bumping the damage die up to a d6 would (1) make it more balanced compared to other attack cantrips, and (2) make it so bard players don't feel cheated, especially if they aren't personally witty enough to take advantage of "how fun" everyone seems to think the spell is.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Huh. I'd completely overlooked that.
Wow, Frostbite's really not looking so hot here either.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
No, VM is way better IMHO. I look at VM as “some damage and a cool affect” early on, and as “I can give that whatever disadvantage on its next attack, and do a little damage too, and it’s free” later on. When giving that spellcaster disadvantage on their single attack spell would be super helpful, VM is clutch.
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Watch the Golden Girls and pay attention to Sophia.
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Pun intended?
To be fair, the amount of times you have a monster making an attack roll that isn't a weapon attack is very small. A brief glance over spellcasting and spell-like ability enemies shows that the overwhelming majority call for saves instead of attack rolls - the only one I can think of with a melee/ranged spell attack is a handful of fiends and enemy wizards/warlocks/clerics/etc who have cantrips. And most of the time they have actual spells with save DCs. And fairly high WIS saves.
All in all, unless I'm missing something obvious, I think the difference is negligible for the overwhelming majority of monsters.
LOL! Brilliant life advice for increasing one's wit!
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
IMO it's good at lower levels, kind of meh at higher levels. The damage is dismal, and as you go up in level enemies start having more and more multi-attacks. Vicious Mockery only affects one attack.
I do like the idea of literally insulting someone to death, though.
FIFY
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More than the damage is the ability to force disadvantage on the enemy WHILE doing damage at a distance while only using a cantrip slot. That and being accessable at first level.
The only thing better than healing is preventing the damage in the first place.
"No pity, no remorse, no fear!"
The ideal way to use it is to combine it with something like Bane. Once the enemy is rolling with disadvantage and has -1d4 to each roll you will really notice how effective it is. Not to mention the small amount of damage. That said you don't want to do huge damage, let the melee guys keep the aggro while you keep concentrating on Bane. At higher levels with multiple attacks it gets less useful but by then you have other tricks in your arsenal.
I almost never learn vicious mockery.
It's because utility cantrips are too useful in comparison when cantrips known are limited.
The damage isn't much but cantrips generally have low damage even if this is lower. The secondary effects are usually what's attractive and at low levels it's poor damage with a relatively low save DC in addition to being limited in cantrips known, and at higher levels it's an effect that can be found in many places.
Out of curiosity, does this mean you almost never take an attack cantrip in general, or just that VM doesn't make the cut as one?
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
Flèche - V. Human Swords Bard 10 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in The Scarlet Mist
Sterling - V. Human Bard 1 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in Bards: Dragon Heist
>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
I usually avoid attack cantrips altogether on bards, but have taken them occasionally. Usually it's for a better at-will damage option through secrets on a caster style college, or based on a flavor style.
The damage portion isn't better than TWF or a crossbow until higher levels. The disadvantage is useful but the competition with how many cantrips I can learn usually turns into wanting something when there are other means to cause disadvantage.
On warlocks eldritch blast has many enhancers so it's typical. On sorcerer metamagics work well with damage cantrips so that's typical. Wizards may as well use a crossbow for damage until 6th or 11th level unless the subclass works with cantrips but have a wider variety of rider effects and one more cantrip known. The effects are what really matter.
I quite often wait for 4th level before picking up that damage cantrip on other casters when another cantrip becomes available, and also in preparation for the added damage die.
Secrets or a feat to grab damage cantrips from another classes is a pretty steep cost for minor effects. Vicious mockery isn't a bad spell but utility spells provide more versatility and become heavy competition for cantrips known. If I want a better at-will damage option on a bard it's more readily available using extra attack from subclasses. So I usually rely on weapons, items, and spell slots instead of attack cantrips on a bard.
I'd say "Early Levels it's good", but leaning towards the "Most of the time Useless" category, and "Completely Useless" at higher levels.
For Damage output 1/5: Early levels benefit pretty well from it; enemies rarely have high wisdom saves and the d4 damage isn't that much less than other options in the beginning. Later on, it becomes probably the weakest attack at level 17 when you'd probably do better throwing real caltrops on the ground instead. 4-16 damage at level 17 is a waste of a action really no matter what added bonus.
As a guaranteed source of damage 3/5: Obviously can go either way depending on the target. The psychic damage property is probably the rarest damage type to be resistant; but the Wisdom save is 50/50. <Though I will say that Wisdom saves by normal NPC's/enemies leans more in your favor, but any big-shot that you do battle with will undoubtedly have this ability score pretty high. Monster Abilities Part 5 - Wisdom | DMDave | Fifth Edition Monsters, Maps, and More <pretty useful for figuring out what may or may not save.
The added Effect of Disadvantage on next attack 2/5: Versus another spellcaster (those who would use spells and things that don't utilize attacks and instead do AOE/Save Spells) then this cantrip is nearly guaranteed to be useless. Firstly being that its chance of doing its paltry damage is next to nil (especially vs a wisdom-based spellcaster), but then it has no added effects against players if they are not making a attack roll.
The Only opponents you'd be using this against will likely be when/if you know that they can't readily resist it and then it only works with the next attack; so any enemy that can make two attacks will still get a solid swing in. If the target does have only one attack, then it could be very useful to spam it and let your team take care of the rest.
Overall 2/5: The damage is appalling, while the chance to even hit the target is mediocre, and the icing on the cake being that giving a enemy disadvantage might not make that much of a difference.
Now it's not that this spell hasn't come in handy before, sparing teams from death where a monster that rolled a nat20 has to reroll and ends up with a nat1 or failure, but there are so many other options out there that this spell is definitely on the weaker sides and possibly one the top 3 weakest in terms of combat-use. <BUT (and there is a pretty important thing not said) WHO DOESN'T WANT TO KILL THE BIG BAD WITH A "Yo' Mama" JOKE?!
Added Note: In order for this spell to have any sort of standing, I believe it would need to add your charisma modifier to the damage dealt to boost at least that aspect.
I think the spell is fine as it is, as Wisdom Save's are probably the best Save Option against most melee Monsters and the lower damage balances this out.
HOWEVER, I really liked the idea that someone suggested previously, in that as opposed to increasing Damage Dice per tier, you instead increase the number of "targets"... similar to Eldritch Blast. If you were going to home brew this, I think you would need to include a range between the targets reasonable.. but I think the DM would have to flavor a solid Role Played insult to all of the targets.
If I was going to home brew a tier based increase to this spell it would actually be to affect more attacks the more that you go up in tiers of Cantrips.
I'll give my reasoning behind this. I used to think Vicious Mockery was really bad. Even with it's damage type because it's damage is so low to almost be laughable on an attack/save spell. Specially an all or nothing one. The damage might be reasonable on a (mostly) guaranteed hit like magic missile. but it's really low when you consider having a miss chance applied to it and something you might potentially use constantly (at least at lower level). But as I talked it over with a few people and really got down to analyzing the spell. I realized that Vicious Mockery isn't your typical attack spell despite being laid out like one. It's a debuff spell with a (barely) scaling damage dice rider. The damage is really the secondary effect. The real reason to cast it is that ability to inflict disadvantage on whatever you happen to land it on. But right now it's use is somewhat limited because Many Melee attackers make at least two attacks. And many spell casters also have save spells in their arsenal which gets around the issue of disadvantage on attack rolls. So what can make this cantrip strong at low levels and less so at middle levels to only minorly so at high levels for most opponents is the fact that it's main effect doesn't actually scale.
If you want to seriously increase the power of this cantrip then. You don't really have to make it's damage increase to try to make it competative. All you have to do is alter how well it's Debuff works and when. Thus if you let it do one attack at first tier, 2 attacks at second tier, and so on. It actually becomes a fairly potent debuff (perhaps too potent in some respects) and thus keeps it's usefulness at all levels given the fact that it is no cost. But to some extent that might actually break the spirit of cantrips which kind of do mostly lose their value at higher levels.
I have never though of that change it could be very Intresting.
I spell Goodly.