Fair warning for anyone who has been checking this out, I did the Kickstarter and got the books, and they’re not compatible with D&D 5e. It is a different rule system that replaces 5e. It can work with D&D modules and monster encounters, technically, but you can’t run a Level Up party that includes D&D characters or even other third-party D&D classes.
It is it’s own thing altogether, like Pathfinder, or an OSR hack. A bunch of basic rules, spells, feats, and items are entirely different from their D&D versions. It might still be of interest to people, but they should know what it is and what it isn’t. It’s not “modular,” the design is all tied together, use it or use D&D, in other words, but it isn’t designed to mix well.
It has issues beyond that, and some good things, too, just don’t think it’s something you can “add on” to D&D. It’s designed to replace D&D, only, but it could be used with official adventures.
Thanks for the take, I've been curious. So if you had, say, a PHB fighter standing next to a Level Up fighter, why wouldn't they be able to work together?
In short, they rely on entirely different mechanics. Level Up has a lot of changed baseline mechanics. Critical hits double static modifiers, all classes can access a universal maneuver similar to Reckless Attack, the armor tables are totally different, many feats and spells are weakened, etc.
A core 5e fighter might be built around using something like Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master combined with Action Surge and battle master dice, but with the Level Up versions of those feats and others significantly weakened, the core fighter would underperform. The level up fighter gains a bunch of martial maneuvers instead, so using the level up versions of the rules basically weakens the original D&D classes’ performance. Not an issue for a “pure level up” game since the new classes have different go to techniques, but they aren’t meant to interact truthfully since they function off of a different core rule system entirely.
I’m not aiming to overly judge the new game itself here, just to clarify it is a new game, not new content for the existing game. Too much is changed with the code rules to call it D&D, it is its own thing, and it’s not built to function alongside existing classes and sub classes due to all the changes to existing content that compliments them, and mechanics they are built around.
It isn’t an add on like a PHB2 situation that gives new classes and options to add on to the existing rules. Think more like Adventurer Conquerer King or something that can be used with original basic D&D modules but isn’t balanced to work with the actual classes of basic D&D which it replaces.
Yeah, they are more powerful to begin with, and they also leverage the new mechanics of Level Up. D&D classes were not built around Level Up mechanics, so they would already have that issue, but every spell, feat and item D&D classes commonly rely on to excel has been weakened.
Its like if the Book of 9 Swords from 3rd edition also weakened a bunch of the feats that original PHB fighters depended on. Warblades would already have maneuvers, but weakening everything from spring attack to combat reflexes and power attack would make the phb fighters even worse. That’s more the situation with Level Up, with D&D content.
How does it weaken existing options? That seems an odd way to phrase your chief complaint and I'm not sure exactly what it means. Can you give an example in some way they weaken existing 5e options?
Sure, existing feats have been replaced with similar analogies that do not work the same. There is a Polearm Expert instead of a Polearm Master that now lets enemies use a reaction to avoid the OA. The Level Up versions of Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter and others are also drastically weakened. Many spells are weakened, like Fireball, Counterspell, and Goodberry - which no longer makes “food.” It’s a lot of things, and some are elements existing classes depend on. The new Level Up classes have new tricks so they don’t rely on these things.
Hence my comparison - imagine if Book of 9 Swords had new classes with martial maneuvers but also weakened all the decent feats for PHB fighters. It’s not just “here is a balanced alternative.” It’s “here is an alternative but also the old stuff doesn’t work the way it used to and isn’t good anymore.”
It isn’t compatible with D&D and it isn’t meant to be, but some people didn’t realize this. It’s meant to be compatible with D&D adventure paths and modules and such, not D&D rules, so “mixed parties” do not work. It’s also not D&D at all, given the numerous changed core rules, so it wouldn’t make sense to try, like trying to use Shadowrun characters in the Star Wars d6 game just because both used six sided dice. It uses d20s, but Level Up isn’t a D&D 5e add on, it’s a replacement for the entire game, solely, that doesn’t work with D&D 5e content other than monsters and adventures.
Level Up is a linked system, that’s the main reason. It’s not designed for pick and choose kind of piecemeal usage. It introduces a lot of new rules, and then links them all. Their new action economy depends on the changes feats and spells as written in Level Up. New content leverages the changes on critical hits, etc.
You could technically run a 3rd Ed character alongside pathfinder characters, but it didn’t really work well. This is a step further on incompatibility. Pathfinder added on more rules and tweaked some core elements of D&D, and Level Up does a lot further. It can still claim compatibility with adventures but that’s the limit to it.
Did it ever actually sell itself as such? I figured when they came out with changes to the base rules that it was pretty clear that it functions as a separate edition.
I think the idea was to use 5e as a starting point, but add more character options as well as toning down some of the objectively superior paths like GWM, PAM, and Sharpshooter. I really like some of the changes they made, like giving Fighters out-of-combat features relating to their knowledge of arms and armor. But my group is still happy with 5e at the moment, so I don't expect we'll be switching over any time soon.
You are probably right, it isn’t different from what it claims to be, it was just presented a bit ambiguously. Being compatible with modules is a different thing from being companion with D&D rules.
As long as people understand what it is, which you seem to, it’s all good. You understand that you either run a Level Up game, or a D&D game, and that they are different games. They aren’t things that can mix and match, and it’s not a toolkit of add on options. A game is either D&D or Level Up.
That’s exactly what was promised, but the term “compatibility” means different things to different people. It’s module compatible, but not rule compatible or class compatible. Just a different game altogether.
Most groups happy with 5e are playing 5e. It would have been nice if this was designed to add on to 5e, but there are different products for that. Level Up is a replacement, like deciding to run a module with Pathfinder 2e instead of D&D 5e. You wouldn’t bring a D&D character to a Pathfinder game, and you shouldn’t bring a D&D character to a Level Up game. They’re different gaming systems.
Fair warning for anyone who has been checking this out, I did the Kickstarter and got the books, and they’re not compatible with D&D 5e. It is a different rule system that replaces 5e. It can work with D&D modules and monster encounters, technically, but you can’t run a Level Up party that includes D&D characters or even other third-party D&D classes.
It is it’s own thing altogether, like Pathfinder, or an OSR hack. A bunch of basic rules, spells, feats, and items are entirely different from their D&D versions. It might still be of interest to people, but they should know what it is and what it isn’t. It’s not “modular,” the design is all tied together, use it or use D&D, in other words, but it isn’t designed to mix well.
It has issues beyond that, and some good things, too, just don’t think it’s something you can “add on” to D&D. It’s designed to replace D&D, only, but it could be used with official adventures.
Thanks for the take, I've been curious. So if you had, say, a PHB fighter standing next to a Level Up fighter, why wouldn't they be able to work together?
In short, they rely on entirely different mechanics. Level Up has a lot of changed baseline mechanics. Critical hits double static modifiers, all classes can access a universal maneuver similar to Reckless Attack, the armor tables are totally different, many feats and spells are weakened, etc.
A core 5e fighter might be built around using something like Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master combined with Action Surge and battle master dice, but with the Level Up versions of those feats and others significantly weakened, the core fighter would underperform. The level up fighter gains a bunch of martial maneuvers instead, so using the level up versions of the rules basically weakens the original D&D classes’ performance. Not an issue for a “pure level up” game since the new classes have different go to techniques, but they aren’t meant to interact truthfully since they function off of a different core rule system entirely.
I’m not aiming to overly judge the new game itself here, just to clarify it is a new game, not new content for the existing game. Too much is changed with the code rules to call it D&D, it is its own thing, and it’s not built to function alongside existing classes and sub classes due to all the changes to existing content that compliments them, and mechanics they are built around.
It isn’t an add on like a PHB2 situation that gives new classes and options to add on to the existing rules. Think more like Adventurer Conquerer King or something that can be used with original basic D&D modules but isn’t balanced to work with the actual classes of basic D&D which it replaces.
That's interesting. I looked at some of the preview stuff, an it definitely looked like the characters would be more powerful. I guess I was right.
Yeah, they are more powerful to begin with, and they also leverage the new mechanics of Level Up. D&D classes were not built around Level Up mechanics, so they would already have that issue, but every spell, feat and item D&D classes commonly rely on to excel has been weakened.
Its like if the Book of 9 Swords from 3rd edition also weakened a bunch of the feats that original PHB fighters depended on. Warblades would already have maneuvers, but weakening everything from spring attack to combat reflexes and power attack would make the phb fighters even worse. That’s more the situation with Level Up, with D&D content.
How does it weaken existing options? That seems an odd way to phrase your chief complaint and I'm not sure exactly what it means. Can you give an example in some way they weaken existing 5e options?
I got quotes!
Sure, existing feats have been replaced with similar analogies that do not work the same. There is a Polearm Expert instead of a Polearm Master that now lets enemies use a reaction to avoid the OA. The Level Up versions of Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter and others are also drastically weakened. Many spells are weakened, like Fireball, Counterspell, and Goodberry - which no longer makes “food.” It’s a lot of things, and some are elements existing classes depend on. The new Level Up classes have new tricks so they don’t rely on these things.
Hence my comparison - imagine if Book of 9 Swords had new classes with martial maneuvers but also weakened all the decent feats for PHB fighters. It’s not just “here is a balanced alternative.” It’s “here is an alternative but also the old stuff doesn’t work the way it used to and isn’t good anymore.”
It isn’t compatible with D&D and it isn’t meant to be, but some people didn’t realize this. It’s meant to be compatible with D&D adventure paths and modules and such, not D&D rules, so “mixed parties” do not work. It’s also not D&D at all, given the numerous changed core rules, so it wouldn’t make sense to try, like trying to use Shadowrun characters in the Star Wars d6 game just because both used six sided dice. It uses d20s, but Level Up isn’t a D&D 5e add on, it’s a replacement for the entire game, solely, that doesn’t work with D&D 5e content other than monsters and adventures.
Hmm, I guess i don't understand how a new feat, Polearm Expert, existing somehow makes the current feat, Polearm Master worse than it already is.
I also don't understand why a character not built using those options would be forced to convert into using them.
I got quotes!
Level Up is a linked system, that’s the main reason. It’s not designed for pick and choose kind of piecemeal usage. It introduces a lot of new rules, and then links them all. Their new action economy depends on the changes feats and spells as written in Level Up. New content leverages the changes on critical hits, etc.
You could technically run a 3rd Ed character alongside pathfinder characters, but it didn’t really work well. This is a step further on incompatibility. Pathfinder added on more rules and tweaked some core elements of D&D, and Level Up does a lot further. It can still claim compatibility with adventures but that’s the limit to it.
Did it ever actually sell itself as such? I figured when they came out with changes to the base rules that it was pretty clear that it functions as a separate edition.
I think the idea was to use 5e as a starting point, but add more character options as well as toning down some of the objectively superior paths like GWM, PAM, and Sharpshooter. I really like some of the changes they made, like giving Fighters out-of-combat features relating to their knowledge of arms and armor. But my group is still happy with 5e at the moment, so I don't expect we'll be switching over any time soon.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You are probably right, it isn’t different from what it claims to be, it was just presented a bit ambiguously. Being compatible with modules is a different thing from being companion with D&D rules.
As long as people understand what it is, which you seem to, it’s all good. You understand that you either run a Level Up game, or a D&D game, and that they are different games. They aren’t things that can mix and match, and it’s not a toolkit of add on options. A game is either D&D or Level Up.
That’s exactly what was promised, but the term “compatibility” means different things to different people. It’s module compatible, but not rule compatible or class compatible. Just a different game altogether.
Most groups happy with 5e are playing 5e. It would have been nice if this was designed to add on to 5e, but there are different products for that. Level Up is a replacement, like deciding to run a module with Pathfinder 2e instead of D&D 5e. You wouldn’t bring a D&D character to a Pathfinder game, and you shouldn’t bring a D&D character to a Level Up game. They’re different gaming systems.