Changing it to grant temp HP equal to your level plus an ability modifier every round just for landing an attack would shift the pendulum fully in the other direction and make it an absurdly overpowered ability. Especially on top of the Barbarian's damage resistances while raging.
Or hell at least getting Proficiency+Rage damage back.....something ya know. Its like they think about things for like 12 seconds before moving on.
Changing it to grant temp HP equal to your level plus an ability modifier every round just for landing an attack would shift the pendulum fully in the other direction and make it an absurdly overpowered ability. Especially on top of the Barbarian's damage resistances while raging.
Just curious do you have an issue with the Warlock and Monk mechanics then?
This would also be an issue with the formula, not using Temporary HP as opposed to Regular HP.
There are other ways to structure the Temporary HP... but Temporary HP is a good buffer against stacking. eg.
Con Mod + Barb Level once per rage / when you begin your rage
Con Mod + 1/2 Barb Level w/ or w/out bonus action requirement
Con Mod + Barb Level that can be used once per turn a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus / Con Mod per long rest
This is would be for playtesting. What are your recommendations? Are you happy with it as is?
Changing it to grant temp HP equal to your level plus an ability modifier every round just for landing an attack would shift the pendulum fully in the other direction and make it an absurdly overpowered ability. Especially on top of the Barbarian's damage resistances while raging.
Just curious do you have an issue with the Warlock and Monk mechanics then?
This would also be an issue with the formula, not using Temporary HP as opposed to Regular HP.
There are other ways to structure the Temporary HP... but Temporary HP is a good buffer against stacking. eg.
Con Mod + Barb Level once per rage / when you begin your rage
Con Mod + 1/2 Barb Level w/ or w/out bonus action requirement
Con Mod + Barb Level that can be used once per turn a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus / Con Mod per long rest
This is would be for playtesting. What are your recommendations? Are you happy with it as is?
Yeah I would stack it closer to the Open Hand Monk heal and make it once per long rest? or maybe you can grapple as a BA when you bite.
Something active would be nice as the other two offer something extra for you to do: Claws = Extra attack; Tail = Reaction d8 to AC
If you could like bite then grapple with the jaw that would be cool as its a way to keep something from running away or maybe you want to take that guy for a ride down a hill.
Changing it to grant temp HP equal to your level plus an ability modifier every round just for landing an attack would shift the pendulum fully in the other direction and make it an absurdly overpowered ability. Especially on top of the Barbarian's damage resistances while raging.
Just curious do you have an issue with the Warlock and Monk mechanics then?
No, because they require you to drop a target to zero HP, which is harder to do than simply landing an attack. And neither class is nearly as tanky as the barbarian, either.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Oops, deleted. Just said the Open Monk ability is an interesting comparison. Although I think as a level 3 barbarian feature it should be stronger... in light of the strength of other barbarian 3 features. Good comparison though, thanks!
With regards to the Bite, I think a better ability would be an auto-grapple similar to what many creatures have; i.e- if you hit with a Bite, you can attempt a grapple as a bonus action.
Rage grappling is something that Barbarians are good at, and is a useful tanking ability (in terms of keeping enemies where you want them), but you have to trade an attack for it normally, so being able to do it with a bonus action means you can do it a lot more.
More generally with the Path of the Beast I wonder how OP it would be to just have the character gain all three weapons while Raging, so you're not going all-in in on a single weapon and can switch between them, as this makes any Bite ability less situational.
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With regards to the Bite, I think a better ability would be an auto-grapple similar to what many creatures have; i.e- if you hit with a Bite, you can attempt a grapple as a bonus action.
Rage grappling is something that Barbarians are good at, and is a useful tanking ability (in terms of keeping enemies where you want them), but you have to trade an attack for it normally, so being able to do it with a bonus action means you can do it a lot more.
More generally with the Path of the Beast I wonder how OP it would be to just have the character gain all three weapons while Raging, so you're not going all-in in on a single weapon and can switch between them, as this makes any Bite ability less situational.
I actually think that their 14th level should be they get all the weapons during rage and take on a more full beastial appearance.
Call the Hunt
This ability is a fun one and I like the party benefit but maybe add another option. You could do the call or you can go full beast mode once per day and you get to choose one or the other.
I could get behind the grapple option, although thematically it doesn't have much to do with biting and it takes away the benefit of being able to have your hands full. But I do like the three choices offering damage, defense, or control.
I could get behind the grapple option, although thematically it doesn't have much to do with biting and it takes away the benefit of being able to have your hands full.
In what way? I'm pretty sure that just because you initiate a grapple with a bite doesn't mean you can't switch to using your hands to maintain it and just go bite happy if you want to from then on? Also I'm not sure how grappling with a bite isn't thematic? It's what a lot of police and guard dogs are trained to do.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I could get behind the grapple option, although thematically it doesn't have much to do with biting and it takes away the benefit of being able to have your hands full.
In what way? I'm pretty sure that just because you initiate a grapple with a bite doesn't mean you can't switch to using your hands to maintain it and just go bite happy if you want to from then on? Also I'm not sure how grappling with a bite isn't thematic? It's what a lot of police and guard dogs are trained to do.
Also as you mentioned several monsters in the manual actually auto grapple with a bite.
"just because you initiate a grapple with a bite doesn't mean you can't switch to using your hands to maintain it"
That depends on who is DMing. Based on some discussions I've had her before, some would take that as releasing one grapple and initiating another, requiring another "attack" and another contested check.
I'm not sure it is as weak as you think. It's a d8 weapon you can gain at (almost) any time, which doesn't use your hands. You could use a shield and grapple an enemy, or grapple 2 enemies, while still having your bite. The healing effect is small, I'll grant you, but it's not far off half a healing potion, for free every round you are under half HP (and hit, of course).
I think it looks so weak because you are comparing it to 2 much stronger options: Claws will inflict more damage, and tail gives both reach and a defensive reaction. It's the weakest (or, at least, the most situational) of the three. If you know in advance that you are going to need it, though, it could be a life saver.
If I was the DM, I would consider allowing a change to Bite when you drop below 50% (maybe bonus action)... I'd have to evaluate how that affected play, and it would remove/dilute a strategic choice which the Barb would need to make.
Scatterbraint made a good point about comparing it to the other options, but in addition a 1d8 bite takes the place of a weapon attack you otherwise would have made, e.g. (at minimum) another 1d8 weapon, or a 1d10, 1d12, or 2d6 weapon, some of which have reach.
Bite works well in many situations where you can't wield these bigger weapons that your talking about. Such as in situations where your grappling a target as somebody above mentioned. Considering that your likely to hit when you have somebody grappled you can actually grapple a person. Use them as a meat shield and regain hitpoints as a barbarian if you desire to. There are strategies where the bite is actually useful and you would still manage a good deal of damage or end up in situations where you can make attacks that you otherwise might have trouble doing that are bieng ignore purely for the concept of Maximum straight DPS which is not always the best solution even when you consider the fact that your party uses less resources when things die faster.
Yeah the tail is the better defensive option. It's also better at enabling grappling. You have just as many free hands as the bite form but can also initiate a grapple from reach with the tail. I believe the bite's niche was supposed to be having a blend of offense and defense whereas the tail and claw fall on more extreme ends of the spectrum. The problem is the tail is better at keeping you alive, AND allows you to attack with a greatsword to deal more damage than the bite. The bite really fails to have a purpose beyond fueling fantasies of wolf mouth characters.
Yeah the tail is the better defensive option. It's also better at enabling grappling. You have just as many free hands as the bite form but can also initiate a grapple from reach with the tail. I believe the bite's niche was supposed to be having a blend of offense and defense whereas the tail and claw fall on more extreme ends of the spectrum. The problem is the tail is better at keeping you alive, AND allows you to attack with a greatsword to deal more damage than the bite. The bite really fails to have a purpose beyond fueling fantasies of wolf mouth characters.
The Tail cannot initiate Grapple. it's a weapon your wielding. not a nimble third arm. if it was going to allow you to Grapple it would be listing it. it lists specifically what you can do with it in the way it's written. you can either hit somebody with it's long spikey-ness or you can potentially deflect weapon attacks. That's it.
Also. The healing is guaranteed if you actually have less than half your hp (The hp amount restriction is really the bites biggest drawback and problem). The making a hit miss you is not actually guaranteed. The chance is higher but it is not a guarantee.
As for damage. The mouth and tail do the same amount of damage, They both can be used with their hands full (which does not necessarily mean a weapon), the only real difference between them as far as attacking goes is the reach effect. which may or may not be a valuable property depending on the situation that your in. Grappling for Example makes Reach pointless as long as your attacking your grappled opponent.
Yeah I was mistaken about the grappling rules. Okay, it isn't better, but is also no worse. Grappling is not some niche the bite form can lay claim to.
The tail and bite do the same damage but you have to actually bite to get its defensive function. You don't have to attack with the tail to get its defensive ability. So you can attack with a two handed weapon to out damage the bite. The healing from the bite is also not guaranteed. You have to hit with the attack.
They are both equally good at grappling because they both allow you to have hands free for grappling while still having a weapon to attack with. You can grapple two things and still stab/bite.
The tail is better overall because avoiding a hit or getting a chance to avoid a hit completely is much much better than some marginal THP.
They are both equally good at grappling because they both allow you to have hands free for grappling while still having a weapon to attack with. You can grapple two things and still stab/bite.
The tail is better overall because avoiding a hit or getting a chance to avoid a hit completely is much much better than some marginal THP.
Depending on how you grapple and how good your DM. your grappled target can be that potential chance to avoid getting hit as well. it is possible to grapple somebody and forcibly use them for cover. people do it in real life and in things like movies all the time. The image of a raging madman foaming at the mouth grabbing your allies and putting them in front of all your attacks sounds interesting and potentially demoralizing to the enemies to me. So why protect their friend in that grapple just because you might get hit when your job description tends to revolve around getting hit anyway.
Avoiding the hit is one form of better. But we're talking about a barbarian. if they are raging and they have somebody grappled and they can deal damage to that grappled person. is the damage of that hit really all that significant or can those few hp your complaining about on a veritable pile of hp with some basic resistances to some of the most common types of damage taking all that much more than what is being healed in the end? The hit doesn't matter if it doesn't happen, yes. But the hit also doesn't matter if the hit is effectively wiped away like it didn't happen either. This is something that can easily happen in grapples with Barbarians.
They are both equally good at grappling because they both allow you to have hands free for grappling while still having a weapon to attack with. You can grapple two things and still stab/bite.
The tail is better overall because avoiding a hit or getting a chance to avoid a hit completely is much much better than some marginal THP.
Depending on how you grapple and how good your DM. your grappled target can be that potential chance to avoid getting hit as well. it is possible to grapple somebody and forcibly use them for cover. people do it in real life and in things like movies all the time. The image of a raging madman foaming at the mouth grabbing your allies and putting them in front of all your attacks sounds interesting and potentially demoralizing to the enemies to me. So why protect their friend in that grapple just because you might get hit when your job description tends to revolve around getting hit anyway.
Avoiding the hit is one form of better. But we're talking about a barbarian. if they are raging and they have somebody grappled and they can deal damage to that grappled person. is the damage of that hit really all that significant or can those few hp your complaining about on a veritable pile of hp with some basic resistances to some of the most common types of damage taking all that much more than what is being healed in the end? The hit doesn't matter if it doesn't happen, yes. But the hit also doesn't matter if the hit is effectively wiped away like it didn't happen either. This is something that can easily happen in grapples with Barbarians.
Yes avoiding a hit is always better than healing in any setting regardless of class. Barbs, just like any class, are better off if they don't get hit at all.
The flavor is the only reason to pick a bite but its limited to that and that only as mechanically its strictly worse than the other options by a lot.
They are both equally good at grappling because they both allow you to have hands free for grappling while still having a weapon to attack with. You can grapple two things and still stab/bite.
The tail is better overall because avoiding a hit or getting a chance to avoid a hit completely is much much better than some marginal THP.
Depending on how you grapple and how good your DM. your grappled target can be that potential chance to avoid getting hit as well. it is possible to grapple somebody and forcibly use them for cover. people do it in real life and in things like movies all the time. The image of a raging madman foaming at the mouth grabbing your allies and putting them in front of all your attacks sounds interesting and potentially demoralizing to the enemies to me. So why protect their friend in that grapple just because you might get hit when your job description tends to revolve around getting hit anyway.
Avoiding the hit is one form of better. But we're talking about a barbarian. if they are raging and they have somebody grappled and they can deal damage to that grappled person. is the damage of that hit really all that significant or can those few hp your complaining about on a veritable pile of hp with some basic resistances to some of the most common types of damage taking all that much more than what is being healed in the end? The hit doesn't matter if it doesn't happen, yes. But the hit also doesn't matter if the hit is effectively wiped away like it didn't happen either. This is something that can easily happen in grapples with Barbarians.
Yes avoiding a hit is always better than healing in any setting regardless of class. Barbs, just like any class, are better off if they don't get hit at all.
The flavor is the only reason to pick a bite but its limited to that and that only as mechanically its strictly worse than the other options by a lot.
This is not true of the barbarian. Special since some of it's key features actually work off of getting hit and mitigating those hits they take. Up until you can get relentless rage a core part of your class that helps empower certain other parts is driven either by hitting or getting hit the enemy. So No. Not getting hit at all is not ALWAYS better. And Grapples are something that makes it harder to keep your rage going which is to your advantage while doing it because actual damage dealing potential on both sides is less. So you start relying on either other creatures hitting you or ways to hit where you don't have to release the grapple to deal that damage to keep your rage going and keeping your advantage.
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Or hell at least getting Proficiency+Rage damage back.....something ya know. Its like they think about things for like 12 seconds before moving on.
Just curious do you have an issue with the Warlock and Monk mechanics then?
This would also be an issue with the formula, not using Temporary HP as opposed to Regular HP.
There are other ways to structure the Temporary HP... but Temporary HP is a good buffer against stacking. eg.
This is would be for playtesting. What are your recommendations? Are you happy with it as is?
Yeah I would stack it closer to the Open Hand Monk heal and make it once per long rest? or maybe you can grapple as a BA when you bite.
Something active would be nice as the other two offer something extra for you to do: Claws = Extra attack; Tail = Reaction d8 to AC
If you could like bite then grapple with the jaw that would be cool as its a way to keep something from running away or maybe you want to take that guy for a ride down a hill.
No, because they require you to drop a target to zero HP, which is harder to do than simply landing an attack. And neither class is nearly as tanky as the barbarian, either.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Oops, deleted. Just said the Open Monk ability is an interesting comparison. Although I think as a level 3 barbarian feature it should be stronger... in light of the strength of other barbarian 3 features. Good comparison though, thanks!
With regards to the Bite, I think a better ability would be an auto-grapple similar to what many creatures have; i.e- if you hit with a Bite, you can attempt a grapple as a bonus action.
Rage grappling is something that Barbarians are good at, and is a useful tanking ability (in terms of keeping enemies where you want them), but you have to trade an attack for it normally, so being able to do it with a bonus action means you can do it a lot more.
More generally with the Path of the Beast I wonder how OP it would be to just have the character gain all three weapons while Raging, so you're not going all-in in on a single weapon and can switch between them, as this makes any Bite ability less situational.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I actually think that their 14th level should be they get all the weapons during rage and take on a more full beastial appearance.
Call the Hunt
This ability is a fun one and I like the party benefit but maybe add another option. You could do the call or you can go full beast mode once per day and you get to choose one or the other.
I could get behind the grapple option, although thematically it doesn't have much to do with biting and it takes away the benefit of being able to have your hands full. But I do like the three choices offering damage, defense, or control.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
In what way? I'm pretty sure that just because you initiate a grapple with a bite doesn't mean you can't switch to using your hands to maintain it and just go bite happy if you want to from then on? Also I'm not sure how grappling with a bite isn't thematic? It's what a lot of police and guard dogs are trained to do.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Also as you mentioned several monsters in the manual actually auto grapple with a bite.
"just because you initiate a grapple with a bite doesn't mean you can't switch to using your hands to maintain it"
That depends on who is DMing. Based on some discussions I've had her before, some would take that as releasing one grapple and initiating another, requiring another "attack" and another contested check.
Bite works well in many situations where you can't wield these bigger weapons that your talking about. Such as in situations where your grappling a target as somebody above mentioned. Considering that your likely to hit when you have somebody grappled you can actually grapple a person. Use them as a meat shield and regain hitpoints as a barbarian if you desire to. There are strategies where the bite is actually useful and you would still manage a good deal of damage or end up in situations where you can make attacks that you otherwise might have trouble doing that are bieng ignore purely for the concept of Maximum straight DPS which is not always the best solution even when you consider the fact that your party uses less resources when things die faster.
The main issue is the tail has the same no hands requirements but has arguably a better rider.
Avoiding a hit>>>>healing from a hit
Yeah the tail is the better defensive option. It's also better at enabling grappling. You have just as many free hands as the bite form but can also initiate a grapple from reach with the tail. I believe the bite's niche was supposed to be having a blend of offense and defense whereas the tail and claw fall on more extreme ends of the spectrum. The problem is the tail is better at keeping you alive, AND allows you to attack with a greatsword to deal more damage than the bite. The bite really fails to have a purpose beyond fueling fantasies of wolf mouth characters.
The Tail cannot initiate Grapple. it's a weapon your wielding. not a nimble third arm. if it was going to allow you to Grapple it would be listing it. it lists specifically what you can do with it in the way it's written. you can either hit somebody with it's long spikey-ness or you can potentially deflect weapon attacks. That's it.
Also. The healing is guaranteed if you actually have less than half your hp (The hp amount restriction is really the bites biggest drawback and problem). The making a hit miss you is not actually guaranteed. The chance is higher but it is not a guarantee.
As for damage. The mouth and tail do the same amount of damage, They both can be used with their hands full (which does not necessarily mean a weapon), the only real difference between them as far as attacking goes is the reach effect. which may or may not be a valuable property depending on the situation that your in. Grappling for Example makes Reach pointless as long as your attacking your grappled opponent.
Yeah I was mistaken about the grappling rules. Okay, it isn't better, but is also no worse. Grappling is not some niche the bite form can lay claim to.
The tail and bite do the same damage but you have to actually bite to get its defensive function. You don't have to attack with the tail to get its defensive ability. So you can attack with a two handed weapon to out damage the bite. The healing from the bite is also not guaranteed. You have to hit with the attack.
They are both equally good at grappling because they both allow you to have hands free for grappling while still having a weapon to attack with. You can grapple two things and still stab/bite.
The tail is better overall because avoiding a hit or getting a chance to avoid a hit completely is much much better than some marginal THP.
Depending on how you grapple and how good your DM. your grappled target can be that potential chance to avoid getting hit as well. it is possible to grapple somebody and forcibly use them for cover. people do it in real life and in things like movies all the time. The image of a raging madman foaming at the mouth grabbing your allies and putting them in front of all your attacks sounds interesting and potentially demoralizing to the enemies to me. So why protect their friend in that grapple just because you might get hit when your job description tends to revolve around getting hit anyway.
Avoiding the hit is one form of better. But we're talking about a barbarian. if they are raging and they have somebody grappled and they can deal damage to that grappled person. is the damage of that hit really all that significant or can those few hp your complaining about on a veritable pile of hp with some basic resistances to some of the most common types of damage taking all that much more than what is being healed in the end? The hit doesn't matter if it doesn't happen, yes. But the hit also doesn't matter if the hit is effectively wiped away like it didn't happen either. This is something that can easily happen in grapples with Barbarians.
Yes avoiding a hit is always better than healing in any setting regardless of class. Barbs, just like any class, are better off if they don't get hit at all.
The flavor is the only reason to pick a bite but its limited to that and that only as mechanically its strictly worse than the other options by a lot.
This is not true of the barbarian. Special since some of it's key features actually work off of getting hit and mitigating those hits they take. Up until you can get relentless rage a core part of your class that helps empower certain other parts is driven either by hitting or getting hit the enemy. So No. Not getting hit at all is not ALWAYS better. And Grapples are something that makes it harder to keep your rage going which is to your advantage while doing it because actual damage dealing potential on both sides is less. So you start relying on either other creatures hitting you or ways to hit where you don't have to release the grapple to deal that damage to keep your rage going and keeping your advantage.